When does God put souls into bodies?

[n2thelight]

The problem is, neither of the verses you quoted support this idea (nor any other verse).



Right. God knows all things. This would include God knowing the winning lottery numbers for this Saturday night. Does that mean that the winning lottery numbers for Saturday night existed before 'in the spirit'? Umm, no. Nor does Jer 1:5 say anything about existing in spirit prior to conception. Not in any real sense (spiritually or fleshly) other than in the mind of God, I suppose.

Certainly Adam nor any other man existed in the LDS sense as in running around in other bodies on another planet in another solar system, then falling to Earth.

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Also why did God hate Esau,even before he was born?Guess you're going to tell me because He knows everything He hated him because He knew He would......

 

[jasonc]

Deborah13, the idea of a nephesh Chaya in the bible and jewish thought is that when God did breathe into man he also gave man the yechida. which no man has. nephesh means flesh. it also means that which breathes. plants have that as well. they breathe too. remember the idea of soul is very complicated. I really think I need to take that Hebrew course. I wouldn't be an expert afterwords but more knowledgable

 

[chessman]

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

The implied answer is that Job wasn't anywhere when God laid the foundations of the Earth. Thus Job had no possibility of knowledge on the level of the angels, much less on the level of God's knowledge.

... All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. ...

This would be the point you need to support with some Scripture.
Satan and other angels were there when God laid the foundations of the Earth, agreed. But that does not mean that Job was. In fact, the very passage you quoted precludes it as a possibility.

had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing?

Huh? Had Job been around (spiritually) when God laid the foundations of the Earth, then He might very well have been rejoicing with them and had some knowledge of it. But the whole point of this passage is that Job was not around and had NO knowledge of it. But the angels were.

Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were.

This would be the point that you or the Latter Day church needs to support Scripturally, not just state it.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

The word is Kosmos, not age. If you want to point out it means Cosmos or Universe, fine. But it in no way shape or form means age or time. Or Latter Day.

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Since God predestined us unto adoption as children in Christ (within the world), then what's up with us having been His children prior to the creation? How could we be His children in a previous age, and yet "adopted" children within this age? I'm asking for Scripture on this point, not just a statement or idea of it.

Your idea (we were spiritual children/beings prior) would mean God adopts His own children back, if true. Which makes no sense.

Also why did God hate Esau, even before he was born?

Because it was the chosen purpose of God to be that way.

But you do realize that the text says this occurred at Rebecca's conception, right? Yes it says before they were born but when they were conceived. Which supports my point in this thread.

Rom 9:10-13 (LEB) when Rebecca conceived children by one man, Isaac our father— for although they had not yet been born, or done anything good or evil, in order that the purpose of God according to election might remain, 12 not by works but by the one who calls—it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger,” 13 just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

 

[OzSpen]

Most of Christianity believes that the moment of conception is when a human being is created, body and soul.

FreeGrace,

What statistical evidence are you pursuing that causes you to conclude that 'most of Christianity believes that' the soul enters the body at the moment of conception?

From my studies in theology, I learned that there are 3 primary views of when body and soul are created:

1. The theory of pre-existence. According to this view, souls existed in a previous state and entered the human body at some point in the early development of the body. Early church father, Origen, taught this view.
2. The creation theory. This promotes the perspective that the soul is an immediate creation of God and enters the body at an early stage of the development of the body. Those who promoted this view included Ambrose, Jerome, Pelagius, Anselm, Aquinas and many Roman Catholic and Reformed theologians.
3. The Traducian theory which understands that the human race was immediately created in Adam with respect to the body and the soul. So both body and soul are propagated from Adam by natural generation. Tertullian held this view. Augustine wavered in his views, so some consider he promoted the creation theory while others think he was a Traducian. I have read some Lutheran theologians who hold to this view.

So, for which view are you seeking biblical clarification?

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

Gen 4:1 and Job 30:15 and Psalm 139:13.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain. And she said, “I have given birth to ___?____.​

Neither you nor I were created like either of them were.

Yes, the ORDER is the same, unless someone can prove from Scripture that God REVERSED His order. We find the SAME ORDER for the first (Gen 2:7) and the Last Adam (Heb 10:5). Why would everyone else have a REVERSE order? And where would that be found?

That's why I looked at the first born via Eve. She gave birth to a man, not something else waiting on air for it's lungs. Cain was a man at birth prior to his first breath of air.

God puts the soul into a prepared body. That would be WHEN the baby is being born. Maybe the first inhale of air. Maybe sometime just before birth. The point is that there is NO reason to put a soul into an unprepared body. And so support for that view.

Logic exercise: suppose a baby was birthed and still attached to it's mother's umbilical cord and water sack, never taking a breath of air in it's lungs for minutes, hours, days, whatever. Isn't it still a human with a soul?

In that scenario, it would appear that the baby was born physically dead. That would mean no soul in that body, if James 2:26 is true. Which I accept as true.

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/03/doc-delivers-baby-still-in-amniotic-sac-would-abortion-be-ok/

I don't subscribe to abortion, so this article is irrelevant.

And if you don't like that, what about John the Baptist? Did he not kick in his mother's womb with the Bible calling him John already?

Sure, we can name the fetus which we all assume will be born and a human being. But to call an unprepared body a human being is as wrong as calling a person who has died a human being. When the soul is gone, we acknowledge that. We do NOT treat a dead body as a human being, but a former human being, since the soul is gone.

The body is the shell, the house FOR the soul.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you serious?
The only thing wrong with abortion is that it damages the mother to be?
Abortion has nothing to do with the child, but only the mother?
You need to explain yourself.
This is more important than anything else you've said.

The issue is WHEN God imputes the soul into the body. Only then does the baby become a living soul. Until that occurs, the fetus isn't a living soul, or not a human being, but a body being prepared for being a human being.

As I explained in the OP, God FIRST prepared a body for Adam from the dust of the ground, and THEN breathed into the prepared body the breath of life, which we know is the soul. God creates and imputes souls. He did it AFTER He prepared a body for the first Adam. He also prepared a body for the Last Adam, as Heb 10:5 says.

Unless there is clear evidence that God reversed that order for everyone else, there is no reason to assume that He did.

I believe, as I have explained, that abortion is wrong because of the damage done to the mother. Since the developing fetus is not a human being, it cannot be murder. There has to be a soul involved, which leaves the body for a murder to occur.

The problem is that since this is such a highly charged emotional and political issue, many people aren't thinking clearly or Biblically. But I've given clear Scripture to support my view. And none to refute it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does this scripture say God PUT a soul in man? It says man Became a living soul (creature) after God breathed the breath of life into his body.

It seems very clear to me that breathing into the nostrils is the same as putting. Or imputing. Let's not have a semantic debate.

 

[FreeGrace]

Adam and Jesus were both sons of God, which means they were created or begotten directly by God.

Everyone else was born through the process of childbirth.

Which is still God's plan, or order, or pattern, or sequence. Is there any Biblical evidence that God imputes souls at conception or any time prior to birth?

So the principle of Genesis 2:7 would not apply to everyone else, unless you have a scripture that says every human being was created from the dust of the ground by God himself, and then God breathed into them, which would mean that all mankind are sons of God.JLB

The pattern, or order, is clear enough. God prepared a body for the first Adam and the Last Adam. So, if God REVERSED that order for everyone else, where is the evidence?

It is pure speculation that God would reverse the order for everyone except the first and Last Adam.

The process of conception and gestation is God's plan. And it follows HOW He created the first man.

 

[FreeGrace]

Seeing how the SOUL is the MIND and WILL and EMOTION
What is the debate ?

When God imputes the soul into the body.

 

[FreeGrace]

All souls are with the Father before being born of woman....They return to the Father at death

Is there a verse to support the claim that souls exist before the child is born? And, that God imputes that soul into an unprepared body? Meaning, any time before the birth would be considered viable?

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

What statistical evidence are you pursuing that causes you to conclude that 'most of Christianity believes that' the soul enters the body at the moment of conception?

From the viewpoint of most of evangelical Christianity, which considers any miscarriage or abortion to be the death of a human being.

From my studies in theology, I learned that there are 3 primary views of when body and soul are created:

1. The theory of pre-existence. According to this view, souls existed in a previous state and entered the human body at some point in the early development of the body. Early church father, Origen, taught this view.
2. The creation theory. This promotes the perspective that the soul is an immediate creation of God and enters the body at an early stage of the development of the body. Those who promoted this view included Ambrose, Jerome, Pelagius, Anselm, Aquinas and many Roman Catholic and Reformed theologians.
3. The Traducian theory which understands that the human race was immediately created in Adam with respect to the body and the soul. So both body and soul are propagated from Adam by natural generation. Tertullian held this view. Augustine wavered in his views, so some consider he promoted the creation theory while others think he was a Traducian. I have read some Lutheran theologians who hold to this view.

So, for which view are you seeking biblical clarification?Oz

Actually, #2 has various views. Some believe the soul is imputed early, while others believe the soul is imputed at or very near birth. That is my view. No other view makes Biblical sense.

 

[chessman]

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

The implied answer is that Job wasn't around when God laid the foundations of the Earth.

... All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. ...

Satan and the angels were able to see God create the Earth. Job was not. That's the point of God to Job. Job doesn't even have the knowledge of how God created the Earth that the angels have. How could Job be telling God anything.

had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing?

Job didn't have the knowledge, that's the point.

Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were.

That's your idea that you've not supported Scripturally. In fact, the very verse you mentioned is God telling Job he doesn't have the knowledge of how and when the Earth was created.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

"world" is Kosmos (Cosmos) and means the universe, creation not 'age'.

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

If people have already been children of God previously (spirit babies), then what's up with God adopting us? You don't adopt a child that's already been yours. Rather, you predestine them for their adoption.

Also why did God hate Esau,even before he was born?

Because it was according to God's election (God's choice) to do so. But in support of my point, what's up with God hating Easu when Rebecca conceived?

Rom 9: 10 (LEB) when Rebecca conceived children by one man, Isaac our father—...—it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger,” 13 just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

 

[JLB]

Which is still God's plan, or order, or pattern, or sequence. Is there any Biblical evidence that God imputes souls at conception or any time prior to birth?

Does God still create mankind from the dust of the earth and breath into them the breath of life?

t is pure speculation that God would reverse the order for everyone except the first and Last Adam.

The process of conception and gestation is God's plan. And it follows HOW He created the first man.

Unless you can show where God literally made any other person from the dust of the graound and breathed into them the breath of life, then your entire "theory" is baseless.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:18

Jesus Christ was "birthed' from the womb of Mary.

7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:7

Mary's body was used to give birth to the man Jesus Christ.

God did not create the body of Jesus Christ from the dust of the ground and breathe the breath of life into Him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Which is still God's plan, or order, or pattern, or sequence. Is there any Biblical evidence that God imputes souls at conception or any time prior to birth?

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Isaiah 44:24

I see evidence from these scriptures that God forms the spirit/soul or inner part of man in the womb.


JLB

 

[chessman]

God puts the soul into a prepared body. That would be WHEN the baby is being born

You mean to tell me that you think John The Baptist, as a pre-born baby with a soul, wasn't recognizing Jesus prior to his birth?


Luke 1:39-41 (LEB)

39 Now in those days Mary set out and traveled with haste into the hill country, to a town of Judah, 40 and entered into the house of Zechariah, and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened that when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby in her womb leaped and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.​

Do you think God filled a soulless baby with the Holy Spirit?

In that scenario, it would appear that the baby was born physically dead

I don't subscribe to abortion, so this article is irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Actually the baby was delivered via C-Section and was very much alive and still is. My extension was to assume that doctor didn't burst the water sack and cut the cord for some amount of time, days, weeks, whatever. The baby would still be alive and hearing, feeling and even to some extent recognizing it's mother, etc. In other words, for all intensive purpose and infant with a soul, just getting it's oxygen via amniotic fluid, not air.

Sure, we can name the fetus which we all assume will be born and a human being. But to call an unprepared body a human being is as wrong

You mean like it was wrong for the angel of the Lord to tell Zechariah to call the baby John prior to the baby's birth.

And again, the Scriptures have already been posted that describe God netting human beings together inside the womb, not waiting till they are born to call them a human being.

But whatever, if your mind has already been made up on your idea that humans don't get their souls until after-birth, then have at it. Not sure why you asked others what they thought, though.

 

[gr8grace3]

The issue is WHEN God imputes the soul into the body. Only then does the baby become a living soul. Until that occurs, the fetus isn't a living soul, or not a human being, but a body being prepared for being a human being.

And Job gives us a pretty clear picture of WHEN He imputes that soul to the body.

Job 3:11-15~~ 11“Why did I not die at birth,
Come forth from the womb and expire?

12“Why did the knees receive me,
And why the breasts, that I should suck?

13“For now I would have lain down and been quiet;
I would have slept then, I would have been at rest,

14With kings and with counselors of the earth,
Who rebuilt ruins for themselves;

15Or with princes who had gold,
Who were filling their houses with silver.

And then he contrasts that with verse 16

16“Or like a miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be,
As infants that never saw light.

Job goes on the describe death in verses 17-18

17“There the wicked cease from raging,
And there the weary are at rest.

18“The prisoners are at ease together;
They do not hear the voice of the taskmaster.

And Solomon gives us a description of this death.

Ecc 6:3-5~~3If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things and he does not even have aproper burial, then I say, “Better the miscarriage than he, 4for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. 5“It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.

And no, I am not pro-abortion.

 

[gr8grace3]

You mean to tell me that you think John The Baptist, as a pre-born baby with a soul, wasn't recognizing Jesus prior to his birth?

I don't believe John had a soul before his birth. The baby was reacting to his mothers emotional response to Mary's visit and Elizabeth being filled with the Spirit. I can't remember the medical term right of the top of my head, but I think its called "reflex motility" or "fetal motility?"

Luke 1:39-41 (LEB)

39 Now in those days Mary set out and traveled with haste into the hill country, to a town of Judah, 40 and entered into the house of Zechariah, and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened that when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby in her womb leaped and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.​

Do you think God filled a soulless baby with the Holy Spirit?

It does specifically say that ,"Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit."

Here is John, Luke 1:15~~King James Bible
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- out of 19
koilia 2836 fem ---- gen s noun--- belly 20
mntnr 3384 fem ---- gen s noun--- mother 21

26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13, the idea of a nephesh Chaya in the bible and jewish thought is that when God did breathe into man he also gave man the yechida. which no man has. nephesh means flesh. it also means that which breathes. plants have that as well. they breathe too. remember the idea of soul is very complicated. I really think I need to take that Hebrew course. I wouldn't be an expert afterwords but more knowledgable

Yechidah is getting into the five levels of the soul which is Kabbalah mysticism. I don't go there because I can't verify it in the scriptures. When I look at Kabbalah it appears to me, to be to Judaism, rather like New Age is to Christianity. I don't see how Kabbalah can lead someone to Yeshua but Judaism can.
I do agree that 'nephesh' is tied to flesh, in animals and people, it is the mind. Which is a bigger subject then this thread is about.
But we are different than the animals, mankind was created in the image of God.

 

[jasonc]

Yechidah is getting into the five levels of the soul which is Kabbalah mysticism. I don't go there because I can't verify it in the scriptures. When I look at Kabbalah it appears to me, to be to Judaism, rather like New Age is to Christianity. I don't see how Kabbalah can lead someone to Yeshua but Judaism can.
I do agree that 'nephesh' is tied to flesh, in animals and people, it is the mind. Which is a bigger subject then this thread is about.
But we are different than the animals, mankind was created in the image of God.

layers. they are quoting the bible when they say that. I would have to find that. if you are going to imply that we are in his image then what is the image of god then? a spiritual thing or a fleshly image. biblically its the merits of god that are as such:

1)mercy
2) anger in a holy context
3) love
4) grace
5) compassion
6) the ability to create
7) sense of justice

an animal will have some of that. my dog has sensed both my wife and myself emotional state and has comforted us. when I was depressed, I would wake up to throw papers and at the end of the bed there would be my dog. when im not she doesn't do that. but why that is for another thread.

if you are going to take the image of god as you do then what is it? flesh? God literally in heaven has arms?

 

[Deborah13]

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

Zec 12:1 The burden of a word of Yehovah on Israel. An affirmation of Yehovah, Stretching out heaven, and founding earth, And forming the spirit [ruach] of man in his midst.
The word for soul is nephesh but here the word translated as 'spirit', which is the spirit of man, is 'ruach'.
Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit [ruach]--of all that is in the dry land--have died.

24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Isaiah 44:24

I see evidence from these scriptures that God forms the spirit/soul or inner part of man in the womb.
JLB

I would say that God forms body, soul, and spirit in the womb.