When does God put souls into bodies?

[Deborah13]

I will ask you this. for in Him is the express image of the Godhead. ok what does that mean? jesus surely wasn't a three part being. he was both the Son of God and Man at the same time. and the bible does say he had a soul. so then I must ask if man on the earth in the Form of Jesus is a triparte entity.?

We need to discuss this in another thread I think.
We are not like Jesus was, God/man.
But Paul said, we are spirit, soul, and body. I believe he knew what he was talking about.
1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
And Gen. says both animals and man are living souls [nephesh].
But God breathe the spirit [ruach] of life into man.- Gen. 2:7 And Zech. says that he had the spirit [ruach] in his nostrils.
Trying to stay on topic.

 

[FreeGrace]

Man became a living being [soul] which is spirit soul and body.

That is a different meaning than soul.

OK, cutting to the chase, when did God impute a soul to Adam? Gen 2:7

A living being refers to a complete human being which is comprised of spirit soul and body.

As far as "putting a soul" into a human being, that idea is not found in scripture.

Gen 2:7 says "breathed into his nostrils". That's putting something (breath of life) INTO nostrils. Very clear.

God forms the spirit within a man.

Please quote and cite the verse, if you're doing that. Otherwise, I will think you're only expressing an opinion.

This is done at birth.

So, that's an agreement with my OP?

The "fetus" or undeveloped body is living and grows within the mothers womb because it is in fact "alive".

That would be biological life, the same kind of life that all animals have. And animals don't have a soul.

If a developing body of a human [fetus] were to die in the womb, it would not continue to develop or grow.

Therefore, according to scripture, for a body to be declared as living, it has to have a spirit within.

I think you're just mixing apples and oranges. One must distinguish between biological life, which humans have, and is what animals have. You know, heart, lungs, brain, muscles, bones, nerves, etc. That's biological life, which came from the "dust of the ground" from Gen 2:7, or more specifically, chemicals of the ground.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Yep. When the soul leaves the body, the person is "dead".

 

[jasonc]

We need to discuss this in another thread I think.
We are not like Jesus was, God/man.
But Paul said, we are spirit, soul, and body. I believe he knew what he was talking about.
1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
And Gen. says both animals and man are living souls [nephesh].
But God breathe the spirit [ruach] of life into man.- Gen. 2:7 And Zech. says that he had the spirit [ruach] in his nostrils.
Trying to stay on topic.

so how do you reconcile this then?

if I die and my body decays, in heaven I cant feel or speak? it our mind is also able to do that , then what intellect does the spirit have? the word psyche in greek means our emotions and thoughts. not the organ itself. yet a spirit also will have that. a daemon has those. this is what im getting at. the greek words are limited to what the tanach uses.pone is used in the lxx for the word ruach of man. pone is a bit different the pneuma.

 

[jasonc]

paul was also speaking to the greek people. a Hebrew wouldn't hear the words mind, body(nephesh)oops yes nephesh is the word for body, and ruach in the same manner the word for mind is another term I cant recall.

 

[FreeGrace]

True, but didn't you say accidently strikes a pregnant woman?

<sigh> Please read Ex 21:22. 2 men are striving, and one accidentally strikes a pregnant woman, so that she has a miscarriage. iow, he was trying to strike the other guy and apparently the woman got in the way. A bystander, by any account.

If a person accidently strikes another woman (pregnant or not) are you familiar with what God's punishment is?

12 “‘Whoever strikes someone and he dies will surely be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait and it was an accident, I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee.​

Another civil penalty on a living, breathing person. Same as for a miss carriage.

Your point?

If your idea was accurate, (the baby is merely a fetus until "just prior" to moving down the birth canal), then there should be no penalty whatsoever for accidently causing a miscarriage. But there is one called for by God. The key is was it an accident (which is what v22 is talking about).

Well, pleas explain the civil penalty for the miscarriage. If the fetus were a living human being, there would have been a criminal penalty; ie eye for an eye, life for a life, etc.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you are taking too many liberties with that scripture Ex. 21:22. That scripture never uses the word for miscarries, or a dead fetus/child.

To be clear, the NASB and several translations render the word "miscarry". So I'm not taking any liberties.

It gives no determination as to how far along the pregnancy is or the age of her fruit. I know the Jewish teaching on this and what the writings of both RaMBaM and Rashi say.

Irrelevant on both counts. The woman was struck and she miscarried. That's all that we know.

Here is a scripture that is clearly about miscarrying.
Exo 23:26 there is not a miscarrying [shakol] and barren one in thy land; the number of thy days I fulfil:
Now here is Ex 21:22, where do you see anything that says she miscarried. KJV and YLT

As I said, the NASB and several others SAY miscarry.

 

[chessman]

Your point?

The penalty God prescribed for accidently killing a baby is similar to that of accidently killing a person. If you can't see the point, I simply <sigh>.

Well, pleas explain the civil penalty for the miscarriage. If the fetus were a living human being, there would have been a criminal penalty; ie eye for an eye, life for a life, etc.

No there wouldn't. Not if it was accidently killed. Read Ex:12:13
Killing a person on accident isn't even a criminal penalty according to God.

 

[4afaithfulone]

I said this:
"When do you think God imputes the soul to the body?"

Based on what, specifically? Especially since God's ORDER for the first and Last Adam was to prepare a body BEFORE He imputed the soul.


Please explain what blood has to do with this. Thinking of Lev 17:11?
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’

This verse refers to the blood of animals, who have no soul.

Everything is born of a seed, Our spirit starts out as a seed. The bloodline(not blood type) is contained in the seed of the father/male of the offspring, that decides the lineage or stock of man or animal.
The Bible says life(spirit) of a man resides in the blood. If it meant that we loose our life only if we loose our blood, then how is it the a man can loose his life without shedding a drop? Our life is our spirit.
We take communion of the Bread and the Wine, The wine represents the blood or the Spirit of life(Ruach Breath of life)and the Bread is the Word of life. Jesus is the Seed of God and the Bread of life, him being the Word of God and the Bible tells us that the Word is Seed. And again, since the seed of a man is what determines the child's bloodline, that is how we are born of God by the indwelling Spirit and Word of God.
Abel's blood cried out because the spirit is in the blood, and that is why blood is used for atonement, life for life. We are spirit just as our Father is Spirit. If we are united with God's Spirit then we are alive, if not we are considered dead. Jesus showed this, when he said to one wanting to bury his father first, he said, let the dead, bury their own dead. We must feed upon the Word of God and drink in the Spirit in order to inherit the kingdom of God.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
KJV
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
KJV
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
KJV
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
KJV
1 Cor 15:39
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
KJV
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
KJV
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
KJV
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
KJV
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
KJV
Gen 4:10-11
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
KJV
Gen 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
KJV
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
KJV
Gal 3:19
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
KJV

 

[Deborah13]

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me (asah- human being, And the breath [neshemah] of the Almighty gives me life.

I never said that asah meant "human being". I can't imagine where one would think I did.

Sorry if I miss understood you when you wrote (asah -human being).

Well, most translations have "man became a living soul. As I said previously, the words for soul and spirit can and do overlap in both the OT and NT. So I think you're issue is a semantic one.

They do overlap and so I'm not sure we can always clearly determine. But my point is about more than semantics. Man has or is something than other living souls are. I think we agree on that whether one calls it soul or spirit.

The point of Heb 10:5 is the ORDER in which the Son of God was born. A body was prepared for Him. That strongly indicates that a body was prepared BEFORE He entered it. Which is the exact same ORDER as we find for the first Adam in Gen 2:7. Body first, and THEN the soul.

This scripture only tells me one of the reasons why God prepared a body for Him, because.....
Heb 10:4 for it is impossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, `Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,
Heb 10:6 in burnt-offerings, and concerning sin-offerings, Thou didst not delight,

I never said to disregard anything, much less His body and blood, for heaven's sake.

No, you said you thought I was disregarding His body but that's not really important. Moving on....

Just focus on the ORDER, which was my point. Same as that of the first Adam.

I am focusing on your point but I don't see it represented in this scripture, Heb. 10:5
So as far as this scripture we will not agree. :neutral

 

[Deborah13]

Simplest terms. I think we both agree that a body has to house the soul?

No. I believe we are body and we are soul and we are spirit.
Just as Paul said.

Heb 10:5~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

It does NOT say," When He was conceived or in the womb, He says......."

I agree it does not say anything about when He was conceived or in the womb.....and it doesn't say anything about housing a soul either. But it does say, in the context of these scriptures, one of the reasons Why God prepared a body for Him.
I just now consulted with Adam Clarke because I thought maybe I was way off on this seeing you and FreeGrace do not agree. Here is what he said, in part, about this scripture v5. He said it better.
"When he (the Messiah) cometh into the world - Was about to be incarnated, He saith to God the Father, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not - it was never thy will and design that the sacrifices under thy own law should be considered as making atonement for sin, they were only designed to point out my incarnation and consequent sacrificial death, and therefore a body hast thou prepared me, by a miraculous conception in the womb of a virgin, according to thy word, The seed of the woman shall bruise the head of the serpent."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm

 

[Deborah13]

so how do you reconcile this then?

if I die and my body decays, in heaven I cant feel or speak? it our mind is also able to do that , then what intellect does the spirit have? the word psyche in greek means our emotions and thoughts. not the organ itself. yet a spirit also will have that. a daemon has those. this is what im getting at. the greek words are limited to what the tanach uses.pone is used in the lxx for the word ruach of man. pone is a bit different the pneuma.

paul was also speaking to the greek people. a Hebrew wouldn't hear the words mind, body(nephesh)oops yes nephesh is the word for body, and ruach in the same manner the word for mind is another term I cant recall.

Really a different topic for different thread.

OP wants to know when the soul/spirit is imputed into the body.
What do you think?

 

[JLB]

OK, cutting to the chase, when did God impute a soul to Adam? Gen 2:7

You have been shown that Adam is the exception, as he was created by God and the dirt the he was made from became a living being; spirit, soul and body when God breathed into him.

He was the exception.

Everyone else, God forms their spirit [man] within them at birth.

A human being that is developing in it's mothers womb is living.

A body that is living and growing has a spirit within.

The body without the spirit is dead.

JLB

 

[n2thelight]

The implied answer is that Job wasn't anywhere when God laid the foundations of the Earth. Thus Job had no possibility of knowledge on the level of the angels, much less on the level of God's knowledge.

This would be the point you need to support with some Scripture.
Satan and other angels were there when God laid the foundations of the Earth, agreed. But that does not mean that Job was. In fact, the very passage you quoted precludes it as a possibility.
Huh? Had Job been around (spiritually) when God laid the foundations of the Earth, then He might very well have been rejoicing with them and had some knowledge of it. But the whole point of this passage is that Job was not around and had NO knowledge of it. But the angels were.

This would be the point that you or the Latter Day church needs to support Scripturally, not just state it.


The word is Kosmos, not age. If you want to point out it means Cosmos or Universe, fine. But it in no way shape or form means age or time. Or Latter Day.


Since God predestined us unto adoption as children in Christ (within the world), then what's up with us having been His children prior to the creation? How could we be His children in a previous age, and yet "adopted" children within this age? I'm asking for Scripture on this point, not just a statement or idea of it.

Your idea (we were spiritual children/beings prior) would mean God adopts His own children back, if true. Which makes no sense.



Because it was the chosen purpose of God to be that way.

But you do realize that the text says this occurred at Rebecca's conception, right? Yes it says before they were born but when they were conceived. Which supports my point in this thread.

Rom 9:10-13 (LEB) when Rebecca conceived children by one man, Isaac our father— for although they had not yet been born, or done anything good or evil, in order that the purpose of God according to election might remain, 12 not by works but by the one who calls—it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger,” 13 just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

Simple question,who were the sons of God,and when did satan become evil,or do you like many think he was created that way..........

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
I believe it is at conception. We don't have any real way to test that, but it makes sense. Conception is when a new, genetically different individual is formed.

How does it make sense, when God's ORDER for the first Adam (Gen 2:7) and the Last Adam (Heb 10:5) was to prepare a body BEFORE imputing the soul?

The body, at conception is merely a cell. But it's a physical body, and a genetically new individual, albeit not fully developed.

And what is the purpose of imputing a soul into a fertilized egg, which isn't even a body yet?

In the middle ages, a soul was assumed by the Church to be given at the first quickening, the first noticable movement of the baby in the womb. But that wasn't doctrine, and as we learned more about reproduction, it became clear that a physical organism was present long before that point, which was a new individual, not part of the mother's body.

I don't think it's a major issue, except in terms of abortion, which I see as the taking of a human life. You may differ, and I don't have any sort of evidence to show you one way or the other. Merely my understanding of scripture and Apostolic teaching.

 

[Deborah13]

<sigh> Please read Ex 21:22. 2 men are striving, and one accidentally strikes a pregnant woman, so that she has a miscarriage. iow, he was trying to strike the other guy and apparently the woman got in the way. A bystander, by any account.
Your point?
Well, pleas explain the civil penalty for the miscarriage. If the fetus were a living human being, there would have been a criminal penalty; ie eye for an eye, life for a life, etc.

chessman already told you what the penalty is for an accidental death. Here is the scripture.
I quoted it from the ESV because it is easier to understand....
This is accidental homicide. He is sent to a city of refuge until there is a change in the high priest. He can leave there before that, but like in the case of Exodus 21, the husband would not be accused of murder if he avenged the death of his wife/child or both. This is seen if you kept reading here.
22“But if he pushed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait 23or used a stone that could cause death, and without seeing him dropped it on him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy and did not seek his harm, 24then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these rules. 25And the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil.
http://biblehub.com/esv/numbers/35.htm

 

[Deborah13]

To be clear, the NASB and several translations render the word "miscarry". So I'm not taking any liberties.

The NASB does not say miscarry.
22“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23“But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
Premature birth is not the same thing as miscarry or my grandson would not be alive today or his grandpa either.
Miscarry means what it says. It is always the death of the fetus/child.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miscarriage
Could you please tell me which translation/s do say miscarry?

 

[Gregg]

However, from Gen 2:7, we see that God FIRST prepared a body "from the dust of the ground", BEFORE He breathed into the nostrils the "breath of life", or soul.

A couple of things to consider:

When God breathed into Adam the "breath of life" it may have been a literal breath [mostly nitrogen and oxygen] to animate his body of flesh. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood . . ." (Lev 17:11 LITV). Although Lev 17:11 references animal flesh, the principle is the same for our flesh; the life of our flesh is in our blood.

You mentioned the body and soul in your OP, but do you believe that a man has a spirit also; a spirit that is distinct from his soul. I do, and would reference 1Thes 5:23, "And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and Heb 4:12, "For the word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow [body, flesh], and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;"

So I would expand your question in the OP, 'When did God create our soul and our spirit?' I am firmly convinced that our spirit was created, and that it is not a part of God's Holy Spirit.

In reference to "And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7 LITV). Perhaps God gave a soul and spirit to Adam's body at the moment it was animated by God breathing into his lungs. I believe that God gives a soul and spirit to someone when they are conceived, but I can not find any Scriptures to that end [or to that beginning as it may].

​

 

[n2thelight]

If you all would take the time to really understand the 3 earth ages,all the answers fall into place...Study link at the bottom....Do what you will with it......

Edited for content


These are the first three English words in the Bible. But when was this beginning? Did it begin a mere six-thousand years ago with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What does the Bible tell us? As with all of God's word, there is so much more written just below the surface right there before our eyes, hidden to most but there for the discovery of all. Let's dig it out!

We will study what God's Word, The Bible, says about the beginning; the beginning of not only the history of the creation of the world as we now know it today, but also the creation of the world that then was, as well as the world that is to come (Heaven). These are known as Earth Ages, and there are three of them spoken of in the Bible; we will learn of them in this study. We will also read of time-gap in scriptures, a great flood and destruction other than and before Noah's flood; we will even read of dinosaurs in the scriptures.

Unfortunately, due to the lack of quality in-depth teaching of God's written Word, many Christians have been led into confusion regarding foundational truths that are so very important to our understanding of the whole of God's Word and His plan. There is a plan and a "theme" to the Bible and it flows from Genesis through Revelation. But how can we understand the ending of God's plan (Revelation) if we don't fully understand the beginning (Genesis)? Today we will study several key scriptures in the Bible that many of us have just read over without fully understanding the deeper truths that were contained within them. Understanding these key fundamental truths is vital to understanding the whole of God's Word. But due to the false teachings and the half truths that we have been exposed to our entire life, often we must first unlearn the untruths, before we can learn the truths of God's most Perfect Word, The Bible.

This present topic (the beginning) is so very important because it will shatter a myth that has caused many intelligent well intentioned souls to disregard the Bible because they feel that the Bible goes against good, hard scientific fact; although in reality, nothing could actually be further from the truth.

You may have been told at some point by some of the unlearned within the 'religious community' that this earth is only six-thousand years old because of the fact that it is when God formed Adam in the Garden of Eden (4004 BC). And then you go to a museum and see entire skeletal remains of dinosaurs that have been Potassium-Argon dated to millions of years old!

Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating are reported by Scientists to be quite accurate, although great care must be used in the testing of the specimen for results to be accurate. But it is only through God's perfect laws of nature and the very science that He gave us to explore and harness; that we are even able to date these items at all. Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating calculate the deterioration or transformation of certain elements. These elements deteriorate or transform at a constant rate and thus allow us to determine the age that a certain organic specimen was alive.

The discovery of dinosaur remains that are dated to millions of years old does not go against the truths that God has placed in the Bible for us. In fact, it is scientific discoveries such as that which bears witness to His truths when we competently look at them! It was God that created the science, He created the elements and the laws of nature. It is a gift of God that chemicals and molecules act and deteriorate in a constant fashion, and that we have this scientific means of documenting the past of our planet earth.

Near the end of this study, We will see of a place that God mentions the dinosaur in the Bible. This should prove unnerving to those that stake their soul on the fact of the Bible being just the imaginations of some old sheep herders in Jerusalem. For we did not even discover the existence of dinosaurs until the A.D. 1800's, but the latest book written in the Bible was written in approximately A.D. 94 (Revelation). And the book that the dinosaur is mentioned in (Job) is thought to be the first book of the Bible put into writing, it is believed that the book of Job was written even before Moses scribed the book of Genesis sometime around 1490 BC.

Let's begin our study at the first verse of the first chapter of the first book in our Bible. Genesis was written by the inspiration of Almighty God through the hand of Moses, for Moses was not yet born when the events recorded in the beginning of the book Genesis transpired. We can determine from the genealogies recorded in the Bible that Moses was born on or about 1571 BC, and Adam was formed in 4004 BC in the Garden of Eden. Thus what we read here is the Divinely inspired account of the creation of the foundation of the world, and we most certainly must reflect on every word, for they are the words of Almighty God Himself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If one dos'nt understand the beginning,noway will they understand the end......

 

[Gregg]

I believe, as I have explained, that abortion is wrong because of the damage done to the mother. Since the developing fetus is not a human being, it cannot be murder. There has to be a soul involved, which leaves the body for a murder to occur.

I believe that someone is a living being even as an embryo or fetus. John the Baptist expressed emotion or worship while yet unborn. "For behold, as the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped in exultation" (Luk 1:44 LITV). Jeremiah was consecrated before being born, while in his mother's womb, ". . . before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (Jer 1:5 LITV). That demonstrates Jeremiah's sentience beyond a physical mind or body. Also, our personalities are greatly influenced while in the womb.

So killing an embryo or fetus would indeed be murder.

 

[OzSpen]

Glad to see you consider the NASB translators to be authorities. Let's look at Ex 21:22, and the problem of 2 men fighting and one of them accidently strikes a pregnant woman, so that she "loses her fruit" as some translations render it. But the NASB and several others render the word "miscarry", which clearly indicates a dead fetus. And what is the penalty for causing a miscarriage? It is a civil fine, not a capital punishment, which is "eye for an eye, life for a life". If God considered a fetus to have a living soul in it, and the fetus was considered to be a living human being, then the one who caused the miscarriage should have suffered under capital punishment; life for a life. But not so.

FreeGrace,

You are simply repeating the arguments you made on that other forum. I'm not prepared to go over and over it again with you here. What are you trying to achieve in jumping from one forum to another with the same issue of when the soul enters the body?

I'm bowing out of this discussion as I see you regurgitating the line of reasoning you've made elsewhere.

Oz