When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[farouk]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

Sure it does, water and the Spirit.

...but Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

(Baptismal regenation means salvation by ritual, which I dissent from, as being not taught in the New Testament.)

 

[Butch5]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

Sure it does, water and the Spirit.

...but Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

(Baptismal regenation means salvation by ritual, which I dissent from, as being not taught in the New Testament.)

It's clearly taught in the NT.

Ephesians 5:26 is speaking of Baptism also. Young's Literal translation has it more accurately.

Ephesians 5:25-26 (YLT)
25 The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,
26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it with the bathing of the water in the saying,

The word translated "word" of "saying" is "rhema" is means the spoken word or command. The apostles were told to baptize as they went

 

[farouk]

Sure it does, water and the Spirit.

...but Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

(Baptismal regenation means salvation by ritual, which I dissent from, as being not taught in the New Testament.)

It's clearly taught in the NT.

Ephesians 5:26 is speaking of Baptism also. Young's Literal translation has it more accurately.

Ephesians 5:25-26 (YLT)
25 The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,
26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it with the bathing of the water in the saying,

The word translated "word" of "saying" is "rhema" is means the spoken word or command. The apostles were told to baptize as they went

Nope. This means salvation by ritual.

Whereas salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9), including works of ritual.

 

[Butch5]

Sure it does, water and the Spirit.

...but Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

(Baptismal regenation means salvation by ritual, which I dissent from, as being not taught in the New Testament.)

It's clearly taught in the NT.

Ephesians 5:26 is speaking of Baptism also. Young's Literal translation has it more accurately.

Ephesians 5:25-26 (YLT)
25 The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,
26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it with the bathing of the water in the saying,

The word translated "word" of "saying" is "rhema" is means the spoken word or command. The apostles were told to baptize as they went

Nope. This means salvation by ritual.

Whereas salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9), including works of ritual.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law, not God's commands. If you read on the next few verses explain how Christ has abolished the Law.

 

[Butch5]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

This is the same thing Jesus said,

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Both passage speak of water and Spirit.

 

[farouk]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

This is the same thing Jesus said,

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Both passage speak of water and Spirit.

The idea of cleansing from sin is not worked by baptism, which is a sign. Hebrews 9.14 speaks of the conscience being purged from dead works. It is applied to the believer by faith, not baptism, in the One Who offered Himself without spot to God.

 

[Butch5]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

This is the same thing Jesus said,

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Both passage speak of water and Spirit.

The idea of cleansing from sin is not worked by baptism, which is a sign. Hebrews 9.14 speaks of the conscience being purged from dead works. It is applied to the believer by faith, not baptism, in the One Who offered Himself without spot to God.

How is that blood applied to the Christian?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

The indwelling Spirit comes in when we believe. As far as the manifestation of the Spirit in a gift, like what was poured out in Acts 2, that doesn't seem to be connected to water baptism anymore as it was in the very beginning.

I know of only one person, personally, who said they received their gift at water baptism. In the Bible, Timothy, for example, received his through the laying on of hands. Which seems to be the more predominant way it happens. I know another person who received their's through a word of knowledge.

Honestly, I don't think it's important that baptized people know when the Holy Spirit came into them and joined them to the body of Christ. The important thing is that it really happened and that they persevere in their faith and are careful to devote themselves to good works until the very end. This is what the Bible emphasizes.

 

[farouk]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

This is the same thing Jesus said,

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Both passage speak of water and Spirit.

The idea of cleansing from sin is not worked by baptism, which is a sign. Hebrews 9.14 speaks of the conscience being purged from dead works. It is applied to the believer by faith, not baptism, in the One Who offered Himself without spot to God.

How is that blood applied to the Christian?

By faith. 'Without faith it is impossible to please Him' (Hebrews 11.6).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

I don't see literal baptism here because water doesn't clean anything. Repentance washes away the sins of the body, not water. And the Holy Spirit cleanses the guilt of a man, not water. Water is a symbol. It's a commanded symbol, but still, a symbol of faith and repentance.

To me the real questions are, "can a person who believes the gospel resist baptism, and if that's possible, what are the implications of doing that?" But, as I say, it may make for interesting discussion but it's a moot point to baptized believers.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jethro
From your post #68, where does the scripture teach that the Spirit comes in when we believe?

 

[Webb]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Yet, no one will deal with the texts given in the OP that deal specifically with where the Bible says we come into union with Christ. How do you reconcile your statements with Romans 6:3-4 for example?

You must have missed my post which dealt with Romans 6 and other passages.

 

[n2thelight]

Actually to be born again does not mean what many believe it to be.....

 

[George Muller]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

I don't see literal baptism here because water doesn't clean anything. Repentance washes away the sins of the body, not water. And the Holy Spirit cleanses the guilt of a man, not water. Water is a symbol. It's a commanded symbol, but still, a symbol of faith and repentance.

To me the real questions are, "can a person who believes the gospel resist baptism, and if that's possible, what are the implications of doing that?" But, as I say, it may make for interesting discussion but it's a moot point to baptized believers.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(KJV)

 

[Webb]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

Then what does John 3 mention?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro
From your post #68, where does the scripture teach that the Spirit comes in when we believe?

"13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13 NASB)

We enter into union with Christ, via the Holy Spirit, when we believe. The manifestation of the Spirit in a spiritual gift can come through water baptism, or the laying on of hands, or through a prophetic utterance/ word of knowledge at anytime once a person is saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Certainly the Bible teaches if one has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Thats not the question however, the question is WHEN does one have the Spirit? Acts 2:38 should give a clue. Remember, we are not under the old law covenant but the NT and Jesus lived under the old covenant.

Supposed baptismal regeneration again; but John 3, which teaches the new birth, doesn't mention baptism.

Then what does John 3 mention?

If I may...

The water in John 3 is referring to repentance according to Moses, which was by the time of Jesus publicly announced through water baptism--John's baptism. Jesus is referring to repentance signified in the waters of baptism.

It isn't enough to repent and be born into a natural kingdom of God's people (John's baptism) just as the Israelites were baptized into Moses to become a nation and kingdom of God's people at the Red Sea. That 'birth' is not enough. But that is the 'birth' that the Jews took confidence in to be pleasing and acceptable to God (remember, he's talking to Nicodemus, a Jew, a Pharisee). You must also have faith in Christ and be born into the spiritual kingdom of God. Faith and repentance--that is what a person must do to 'see' the kingdom of God. Mere possession of the law through repentance to that law is not enough.

It's hard for us to get this because the church has been taught that the law of Moses was utterly and completely abolished, not knowing that the repentance we come to when we repent is a turning to the requirements of the law of Moses, which for us is fulfilled in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the letter-of-the-law in the written code.

 

[Webb]

Acts records the conversion of the Ephesians and it records that they received the Holy Spirit following their baptism.

 

[Butch5]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

This is the same thing Jesus said,

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:5 KJV)

Both passage speak of water and Spirit.

The idea of cleansing from sin is not worked by baptism, which is a sign. Hebrews 9.14 speaks of the conscience being purged from dead works. It is applied to the believer by faith, not baptism, in the One Who offered Himself without spot to God.

How is that blood applied to the Christian?

By faith. 'Without faith it is impossible to please Him' (Hebrews 11.6).

Can you show me something in Scripture that shows that faith is the mechanism by which the blood is applied?

 

[Butch5]

Paul, the same one who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 said that God Saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

I don't see literal baptism here because water doesn't clean anything. Repentance washes away the sins of the body, not water. And the Holy Spirit cleanses the guilt of a man, not water. Water is a symbol. It's a commanded symbol, but still, a symbol of faith and repentance.

To me the real questions are, "can a person who believes the gospel resist baptism, and if that's possible, what are the implications of doing that?" But, as I say, it may make for interesting discussion but it's a moot point to baptized believers.

That water itself doesn't do anything, it what God does when one goes into the water.