When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[Deborah13]

I did not really even understand the point of his post

I'm not sure I got it right either. We'll just have to wait for [MENTION=90240]Butch5[/MENTION] to respond. ;)

 

[Butch5]

George,

I think you're missing the point. When Peter made the statement in Act 10 that you quoted. The Spirit had just fallen on Cornelius. When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized. You can't use the statement in Acts 11 as proof that what happened (the Spirit falling on them) in Acts 10 is union with Christ because water baptism happened in between the two statements.

Also I would ask again, are you trying to suggest that a Apostle needs to be present before one can receive the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus would need to come and breath into a person as He did in the scriptures? Your points do not make sense to me, nor do they abide in the whole counsel and truth of the scriptures.

What I'm saying is that what happened at Cornelius' house only happened when an apostle was present, therefore it doesn't seem likely that this was the indwelling of the Spirit. This same thing happened in the OT where the Spirit manifested his power on someone, yet it was only temporary. Contrast that with Peter's word, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying one needs the apostles of Jesus breath to received the indwelling of the Spirit, however, the bestowing of the Spirits power only happened in the presence of the apostles. This seems to indicate that they are not the same thing.

again I think the very scriptures I posted prove that they did receive the indwelling of the Spirit as well as the outward display of the gifts of the Spirit. Its all right there in the context of the scriptures I posted.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how it can be understood any other way?

Hi George,

Let me try to explain. In John 20 Jesus breathed on the apostles and said, receive the Holy Spirit. This was before Pentecost, thus the apostles were indwelt with the Spirit prior to Pentecost. It was at Pentecost that the Spirit's power was manifested on them. Jesus told them to what until they were endued with power, this happened at Pentecost when they spoke in tongues. This receiving of power was a different event from their receiving the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. Peter relates hat this same thing happened to those at Cornelius' house, the Spirit fell on them (endued with Power) and they spoke in tongues. I would argue that this is a different event for those at Cornelius' house also, rather than the indwelling of the Spirit. We know from the Scriptures that water baptism is for the remission of sins. Was Cornelius indwelt by the Spirit before his sins were remitted? You would have to argue yes if you say that the Spirit falling on them is the indwelling of the Spirit.

Regarding act 11, what I said was that it cannot be used to prove that the falling of the Spirit in Acts 10 is the dwelling of the Spirit. When Peter had recounted the events of Acts 10 in Acts 11 water baptism had already taken place. The Spirit fell on them and they were immediately water baptized, so Peter saying in Acts 11 they received the Spirit as we have could easily mean they received the Spirit through water baptism since both the Spirit falling on them and water baptism had both taken place when Peter recounted the events of Acts 10.

Additionally, this is the only case we have recorded where the Spirit fell on someone prior to water baptism and it was to show Peter and the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included in the Gospel. Peter had no intention of baptizing Gentiles when he went to Cornelius' house. We can see this by his statement, 'why have you sent for me'.

 

[Butch5]

When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized.

13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”


Before this revelation of Peter's at the house of Cornelius Gentiles were not baptized in water by John the Baptist or anyone. It was viewed as only for the Jews.

Acts 10:44
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.


I propose, that it was not the presence of the apostles that caused the Holy Spirit to fall on "all who were Listening" but the power of God's words, the message from God.
When we receive the Lord "the circumcision of the heart" it is not the preachers presence that causes us to receive but the Words of God, the Message of the Gospel. "God's Words are sharper than a two-edged sword".

Hi Deborah,

Yes, it was through God that the Spirit was given, however, He did it via the apostles. There is no example of the Spirit falling on anyone in the NT outside of the presence of the apostles. WE see Scripture that says that it was through the hands of the apostles that the Spirit was given. My argument is that the indwelling of the Spirit and the Spirit falling on someone in power is not the same thing.

I do not see anywhere that Peter is saying that Cornelius was already baptized in water. Quite the contrary is taught in Acts 10 and he repeats it here in Acts 11 by his vision. That gentiles could also receive the Holy Spirit and therefore, be baptized in water.

 

[Deborah13]

I do not see anywhere that Peter is saying that Cornelius was already baptized in water.

Sorry Butch, I misunderstood what you were saying. I didn't think you were referring to the Baptism of the HS. I was only considering the union (or indwelling) of the HS. I mind got stuck. I think the clearest scripture for when we receive the union (indwelling) of the HS is the one Jethro gave Eph. 1:13.

 

[George Muller]

George,

I think you're missing the point. When Peter made the statement in Act 10 that you quoted. The Spirit had just fallen on Cornelius. When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized. You can't use the statement in Acts 11 as proof that what happened (the Spirit falling on them) in Acts 10 is union with Christ because water baptism happened in between the two statements.

Also I would ask again, are you trying to suggest that a Apostle needs to be present before one can receive the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus would need to come and breath into a person as He did in the scriptures? Your points do not make sense to me, nor do they abide in the whole counsel and truth of the scriptures.

What I'm saying is that what happened at Cornelius' house only happened when an apostle was present, therefore it doesn't seem likely that this was the indwelling of the Spirit. This same thing happened in the OT where the Spirit manifested his power on someone, yet it was only temporary. Contrast that with Peter's word, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying one needs the apostles of Jesus breath to received the indwelling of the Spirit, however, the bestowing of the Spirits power only happened in the presence of the apostles. This seems to indicate that they are not the same thing.

again I think the very scriptures I posted prove that they did receive the indwelling of the Spirit as well as the outward display of the gifts of the Spirit. Its all right there in the context of the scriptures I posted.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how it can be understood any other way?

Hi George,

Let me try to explain. In John 20 Jesus breathed on the apostles and said, receive the Holy Spirit. This was before Pentecost, thus the apostles were indwelt with the Spirit prior to Pentecost. It was at Pentecost that the Spirit's power was manifested on them. Jesus told them to what until they were endued with power, this happened at Pentecost when they spoke in tongues. This receiving of power was a different event from their receiving the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. Peter relates hat this same thing happened to those at Cornelius' house, the Spirit fell on them (endued with Power) and they spoke in tongues. I would argue that this is a different event for those at Cornelius' house also, rather than the indwelling of the Spirit. We know from the Scriptures that water baptism is for the remission of sins. Was Cornelius indwelt by the Spirit before his sins were remitted? You would have to argue yes if you say that the Spirit falling on them is the indwelling of the Spirit.

Regarding act 11, what I said was that it cannot be used to prove that the falling of the Spirit in Acts 10 is the dwelling of the Spirit. When Peter had recounted the events of Acts 10 in Acts 11 water baptism had already taken place. The Spirit fell on them and they were immediately water baptized, so Peter saying in Acts 11 they received the Spirit as we have could easily mean they received the Spirit through water baptism since both the Spirit falling on them and water baptism had both taken place when Peter recounted the events of Acts 10.

Additionally, this is the only case we have recorded where the Spirit fell on someone prior to water baptism and it was to show Peter and the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included in the Gospel. Peter had no intention of baptizing Gentiles when he went to Cornelius' house. We can see this by his statement, 'why have you sent for me'.

Again I am not sure of your point? I think it very much proves the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I dont know what else could be made of these scriptures?
I do not accept this is the only account, but it has little to do with the point i made from the beginning.

 

[George Muller]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is my point "KNOW YE NOT" without this there is no union with Christ. You can be dunked in the water a thousand times, but until one has the Spirit they are not his.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Butch5]

again I think the very scriptures I posted prove that they did receive the indwelling of the Spirit as well as the outward display of the gifts of the Spirit. Its all right there in the context of the scriptures I posted.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how it can be understood any other way?

Hi George,

Let me try to explain. In John 20 Jesus breathed on the apostles and said, receive the Holy Spirit. This was before Pentecost, thus the apostles were indwelt with the Spirit prior to Pentecost. It was at Pentecost that the Spirit's power was manifested on them. Jesus told them to what until they were endued with power, this happened at Pentecost when they spoke in tongues. This receiving of power was a different event from their receiving the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them. Peter relates hat this same thing happened to those at Cornelius' house, the Spirit fell on them (endued with Power) and they spoke in tongues. I would argue that this is a different event for those at Cornelius' house also, rather than the indwelling of the Spirit. We know from the Scriptures that water baptism is for the remission of sins. Was Cornelius indwelt by the Spirit before his sins were remitted? You would have to argue yes if you say that the Spirit falling on them is the indwelling of the Spirit.

Regarding act 11, what I said was that it cannot be used to prove that the falling of the Spirit in Acts 10 is the dwelling of the Spirit. When Peter had recounted the events of Acts 10 in Acts 11 water baptism had already taken place. The Spirit fell on them and they were immediately water baptized, so Peter saying in Acts 11 they received the Spirit as we have could easily mean they received the Spirit through water baptism since both the Spirit falling on them and water baptism had both taken place when Peter recounted the events of Acts 10.

Additionally, this is the only case we have recorded where the Spirit fell on someone prior to water baptism and it was to show Peter and the Jews that the Gentiles were to be included in the Gospel. Peter had no intention of baptizing Gentiles when he went to Cornelius' house. We can see this by his statement, 'why have you sent for me'.

Again I am not sure of your point? I think it very much proves the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I dont know what else could be made of these scriptures?
I do not accept this is the only account, but it has little to do with the point i made from the beginning.

Yes,

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why are you insisting that this is the indwelling of the Spirit? This is what happened at Pentecost. When this happened at Pentecost the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit. If the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit when this happened how is it the indwelling of the Spirit?

 

[Butch5]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is my point "KNOW YE NOT" without this there is no union with Christ. You can be dunked in the water a thousand times, but until one has the Spirit they are not his.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's in "getting dunked" that one received the Spirit. 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Spirit', that' the promise.

 

[George Muller]

Yes,

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why are you insisting that this is the indwelling of the Spirit? This is what happened at Pentecost. When this happened at Pentecost the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit. If the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit when this happened how is it the indwelling of the Spirit?

Because it clearly is. The gentiles have received the Word of God, and granted repentance unto life. This is clearly be born-again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

But again this has little to do with the point I made from the beginning (see above)

 

[George Muller]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is my point "KNOW YE NOT" without this there is no union with Christ. You can be dunked in the water a thousand times, but until one has the Spirit they are not his.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's in "getting dunked" that one received the Spirit. 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Spirit', that' the promise.

That is not the indwelling of the Spirit, thats the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. Like in Acts 2

 

[Butch5]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is my point "KNOW YE NOT" without this there is no union with Christ. You can be dunked in the water a thousand times, but until one has the Spirit they are not his.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's in "getting dunked" that one received the Spirit. 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Spirit', that' the promise.

That is not the indwelling of the Spirit, thats the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. Like in Acts 2

It is the indwelling, the Holy Spirit is the gift. If you're going to argue that what happened at Cornelius' house and Pentecost is the indwelling then no one could have the indwelling after the apostles died as it was given through them.

 

[Butch5]

Yes,

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why are you insisting that this is the indwelling of the Spirit? This is what happened at Pentecost. When this happened at Pentecost the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit. If the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit when this happened how is it the indwelling of the Spirit?

Because it clearly is. The gentiles have received the Word of God, and granted repentance unto life. This is clearly be born-again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

But again this has little to do with the point I made from the beginning (see above)

You're claiming that union with Christ is from the Spirit falling on them rather than through baptism, correct. This can't be, John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb, Zachariah and Elizabeth were filled with the Spirit also. This was long before Christ died. The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit this also was before Christ died. Some people were filled multiple times with the Spirit, if this was the indwelling there would be no need for multiple fillings. When these filling happened there was usually some miraculous thing that took place.

 

[George Muller]

Yes,

which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Why are you insisting that this is the indwelling of the Spirit? This is what happened at Pentecost. When this happened at Pentecost the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit. If the apostles were already indwelt with the Spirit when this happened how is it the indwelling of the Spirit?

Because it clearly is. The gentiles have received the Word of God, and granted repentance unto life. This is clearly be born-again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

But again this has little to do with the point I made from the beginning (see above)

You're claiming that union with Christ is from the Spirit falling on them rather than through baptism, correct. This can't be, John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb, Zachariah and Elizabeth were filled with the Spirit also. This was long before Christ died. The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit this also was before Christ died. Some people were filled multiple times with the Spirit, if this was the indwelling there would be no need for multiple fillings. When these filling happened there was usually some miraculous thing that took place.

I did not make that claim, I made the point that the clear context of the scriptures in Acts 10 and 11 show that when these gentiles received the Holy Spirit and they were born-again. Which is seen in the clear reading.
I find no scripture that suggest that baptism is required to receive the indwelling Spirit of God, and the words spoken by Peter is in regards to the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, not the indwelling that you seem to think is a seperate work of the Spirit.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

HERE IS WHERE THE SPIRIT IS RECEIVED.

 

[George Muller]

"Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwelleth within you"? Is the starting point of all New Testament doctrine. Gifts or no gifts, a believer should KNOW that they have the Holy Spirit, and seek to submit to what they KNOW they have from God that is in them.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is my point "KNOW YE NOT" without this there is no union with Christ. You can be dunked in the water a thousand times, but until one has the Spirit they are not his.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's in "getting dunked" that one received the Spirit. 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Spirit', that' the promise.

That is not the indwelling of the Spirit, thats the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. Like in Acts 2

It is the indwelling, the Holy Spirit is the gift. If you're going to argue that what happened at Cornelius' house and Pentecost is the indwelling then no one could have the indwelling after the apostles died as it was given through them.

Well I do not accept your understanding that the Holy Spirit is limited in anyway by the presence of any man, no matter his calling. This is just the opinion of some who do not understand the power of Gods Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

That is not the indwelling of the Spirit, thats the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. Like in Acts 2

It is the indwelling, the Holy Spirit is the gift. If you're going to argue that what happened at Cornelius' house and Pentecost is the indwelling then no one could have the indwelling after the apostles died as it was given through them.

Well I do not accept your understanding that the Holy Spirit is limited in anyway by the presence of any man, no matter his calling. This is just the opinion of some who do not understand the power of Gods Spirit.

I didn't say the Holy Spirit is limited in any way. He works as God would have Him work. If God chooses to use men then He will use men. It is Scripture that tells us that it is through the apostles that the Spirit fell on people.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. (Act 8:1 KJV)

KJV 2 Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. (2Ti 1:6 KJV)

As I said, there is no example of this happening outside of the presence of an apostle.

 

[Butch5]

Because it clearly is. The gentiles have received the Word of God, and granted repentance unto life. This is clearly be born-again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

But again this has little to do with the point I made from the beginning (see above)

You're claiming that union with Christ is from the Spirit falling on them rather than through baptism, correct. This can't be, John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb, Zachariah and Elizabeth were filled with the Spirit also. This was long before Christ died. The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit this also was before Christ died. Some people were filled multiple times with the Spirit, if this was the indwelling there would be no need for multiple fillings. When these filling happened there was usually some miraculous thing that took place.

I did not make that claim, I made the point that the clear context of the scriptures in Acts 10 and 11 show that when these gentiles received the Holy Spirit and they were born-again. Which is seen in the clear reading.
I find no scripture that suggest that baptism is required to receive the indwelling Spirit of God, and the words spoken by Peter is in regards to the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, not the indwelling that you seem to think is a seperate work of the Spirit.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

HERE IS WHERE THE SPIRIT IS RECEIVED.

To call on the name of the Lord is water baptism.

KJV Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Act 22:16 KJV)

 

[George Muller]

That is not the indwelling of the Spirit, thats the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. Like in Acts 2

It is the indwelling, the Holy Spirit is the gift. If you're going to argue that what happened at Cornelius' house and Pentecost is the indwelling then no one could have the indwelling after the apostles died as it was given through them.

Well I do not accept your understanding that the Holy Spirit is limited in anyway by the presence of any man, no matter his calling. This is just the opinion of some who do not understand the power of Gods Spirit.

I didn't say the Holy Spirit is limited in any way. He works as God would have Him work. If God chooses to use men then He will use men. It is Scripture that tells us that it is through the apostles that the Spirit fell on people.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. (Act 8:1 KJV)

KJV 2 Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. (2Ti 1:6 KJV)

As I said, there is no example of this happening outside of the presence of an apostle.

Well, so what? Like I said, the Holy Spirit is not limited by the presence of any man. And your scripture does not prove anything as it relates to this issue?

Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[George Muller]

Because it clearly is. The gentiles have received the Word of God, and granted repentance unto life. This is clearly be born-again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

But again this has little to do with the point I made from the beginning (see above)

You're claiming that union with Christ is from the Spirit falling on them rather than through baptism, correct. This can't be, John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb, Zachariah and Elizabeth were filled with the Spirit also. This was long before Christ died. The OT prophets were filled with the Spirit this also was before Christ died. Some people were filled multiple times with the Spirit, if this was the indwelling there would be no need for multiple fillings. When these filling happened there was usually some miraculous thing that took place.

I did not make that claim, I made the point that the clear context of the scriptures in Acts 10 and 11 show that when these gentiles received the Holy Spirit and they were born-again. Which is seen in the clear reading.
I find no scripture that suggest that baptism is required to receive the indwelling Spirit of God, and the words spoken by Peter is in regards to the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, not the indwelling that you seem to think is a seperate work of the Spirit.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

HERE IS WHERE THE SPIRIT IS RECEIVED.

To call on the name of the Lord is water baptism.

KJV Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Act 22:16 KJV)

I would say this was the limited understanding they had at the beginning, but we see that as the gospel was revealed throughout the epistles that this understanding was better understood.

1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism is nothing unless one receives Spirit.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[WIP]

Let's try to keep our posts a little more pleasant please. There's no need for arrogance.

 

[Deborah13]

I would say this was the limited understanding they had at the beginning

Yes, we can see that was true in Peter's limited understanding of the prophet Joel. He was surprised when he found that the gentiles were included in that prophecy.