When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[George Muller]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?

Well that seems to be your question, and I have answered in a very clear way. There is only One Holy Spirit. The Spirit grants gifts to some but the gifts are not the issue as its relates to "union" with Christ.

 

[Butch5]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

This only happened in the presence of the apostles, how would one come into union with Christ now if this is the method?

 

[George Muller]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Is that union with Christ? Peter equates this with what happened at Pentecost, is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts?

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

This only happened in the presence of the apostles, how would one come into union with Christ now if this is the method?

I dont believe I understand your question? Are you suggesting that believers are saved today, without the Holy Spirit?

 

[Webb]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?

Well that seems to be your question, and I have answered in a very clear way. There is only One Holy Spirit. The Spirit grants gifts to some but the gifts are not the issue as its relates to "union" with Christ.

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

 

[George Muller]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?

Well that seems to be your question, and I have answered in a very clear way. There is only One Holy Spirit. The Spirit grants gifts to some but the gifts are not the issue as its relates to "union" with Christ.

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

I would say "involved'' is a very great understatement.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit is salvation.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

 

[George Muller]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?

Well that seems to be your question, and I have answered in a very clear way. There is only One Holy Spirit. The Spirit grants gifts to some but the gifts are not the issue as its relates to "union" with Christ.

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

Well as I have said, I am not making a point on the gifts but on union with Christ.

 

[Webb]

His question was: is this the indwelling of the Spirit or the manisfestation of gifts?

Well that seems to be your question, and I have answered in a very clear way. There is only One Holy Spirit. The Spirit grants gifts to some but the gifts are not the issue as its relates to "union" with Christ.

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

Well as I have said, I am not making a point on the gifts but on union with Christ.

So you agree that union with Christ is taught in Acts 2:36-39 and I might add Rom. 6?

 

[Butch5]

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

This only happened in the presence of the apostles, how would one come into union with Christ now if this is the method?

I dont believe I understand your question? Are you suggesting that believers are saved today, without the Holy Spirit?

No, You posted Acts 10, that the Spirit fell on them before they were baptized. Luke uses the term "fell on" to describe the manifestation of the gifts. This manifestation in the NT only happened in the presence of an apostle. So, if what happened in Acts 10 constitutes union with Christ how would Christians enter union with Christ today as the apostles are no longer around?

 

[George Muller]

Well yes of course it is!
1Jo 4:13that Hereby know we we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

This only happened in the presence of the apostles, how would one come into union with Christ now if this is the method?

I dont believe I understand your question? Are you suggesting that believers are saved today, without the Holy Spirit?

No, You posted Acts 10, that the Spirit fell on them before they were baptized. Luke uses the term "fell on" to describe the manifestation of the gifts. This manifestation in the NT only happened in the presence of an apostle. So, if what happened in Acts 10 constitutes union with Christ how would Christians enter union with Christ today as the apostles are no longer around?

Again I ask is the Spirit in Acts 10 a "different spirit" than the Spirit that saves all those who are born-again? I wonder at the point you are trying to make?

 

[George Muller]

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

Well as I have said, I am not making a point on the gifts but on union with Christ.

So you agree that union with Christ is taught in Acts 2:36-39 and I might add Rom. 6?

Union with Chirst is taught in all the Word for He is the Word. My point was and is that apart from the Spirit there is no union with Christ and the Spirit is the same Spirit.
I have posted many clear scriptures that prove the point I have made.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {by: or, because of }
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Butch5]

I dont believe I understand your question? Are you suggesting that believers are saved today, without the Holy Spirit?

No, You posted Acts 10, that the Spirit fell on them before they were baptized. Luke uses the term "fell on" to describe the manifestation of the gifts. This manifestation in the NT only happened in the presence of an apostle. So, if what happened in Acts 10 constitutes union with Christ how would Christians enter union with Christ today as the apostles are no longer around?

Again I ask is the Spirit in Acts 10 a "different spirit" than the Spirit that saves all those who are born-again? I wonder at the point you are trying to make?

I was asking if what happened in Acts 10 was the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts? What happened in Acts 10 only happened in the presence of the apostles, at least as faras what is written.

 

[Webb]

True, only one Spirit, Eph.4:4. The Spirit however no longer gives gifts (those miraculous gifts) as He once did. Acts 2:36-39 clearly teaches how the Spirit in involved with union in Christ.

Well as I have said, I am not making a point on the gifts but on union with Christ.

So you agree that union with Christ is taught in Acts 2:36-39 and I might add Rom. 6?

Union with Chirst is taught in all the Word for He is the Word. My point was and is that apart from the Spirit there is no union with Christ and the Spirit is the same Spirit.
I have posted many clear scriptures that prove the point I have made.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {by: or, because of }
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I verily believe all the scriptures you above cited. However, the subject of this thread is: ''WHEN DOES UNION WITH CHRIST HAPPEN?". So far as I understand none of those scriptures answer the question. Please handle Acts 2:36-39 and Romans 6.

 

[George Muller]

So you agree that union with Christ is taught in Acts 2:36-39 and I might add Rom. 6?

Union with Chirst is taught in all the Word for He is the Word. My point was and is that apart from the Spirit there is no union with Christ and the Spirit is the same Spirit.
I have posted many clear scriptures that prove the point I have made.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {by: or, because of }
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I verily believe all the scriptures you above cited. However, the subject of this thread is: ''WHEN DOES UNION WITH CHRIST HAPPEN?". So far as I understand none of those scriptures answer the question. Please handle Acts 2:36-39 and Romans 6.

I believe they very much show and prove that "union" with Christ is based upon receiving the Spirit and all union comes from the new birth.
As far as to limit "union with Christ" to 3 scriptures in Acts, is just not wise at all. We have the whole counsel of the scriptures and all the scriptures that show the truth of our union are to be considered. I have already shown that the Holy Spirit was received before baptism, and one could spend their whole life being baptised but if they do not have the Spirit? They are not in union with Christ.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

I am sure Peter was speaking to the Jews, that which he knew. The gospel was a growing revelation that flowed from the Apostles, I think one could even read Peters epistles and see that his understanding of the gospel was subject to the revelation given to Paul. Now Paul did not teach nor did he practise what some have made Acts 2:39.

No, I think it is a great mistake to look to these few verses and start forming doctrine that cannot be proved in the rest of the epistles.

 

[George Muller]

I dont believe I understand your question? Are you suggesting that believers are saved today, without the Holy Spirit?

No, You posted Acts 10, that the Spirit fell on them before they were baptized. Luke uses the term "fell on" to describe the manifestation of the gifts. This manifestation in the NT only happened in the presence of an apostle. So, if what happened in Acts 10 constitutes union with Christ how would Christians enter union with Christ today as the apostles are no longer around?

Again I ask is the Spirit in Acts 10 a "different spirit" than the Spirit that saves all those who are born-again? I wonder at the point you are trying to make?

I was asking if what happened in Acts 10 was the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts? What happened in Acts 10 only happened in the presence of the apostles, at least as faras what is written.

well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how any could not see that the point is salvation had very much come to them when they had received the Holy Spirit? As far as one needing an apostle to be present to receive the Holy Spirit? I am not sure of your point at all?
Are you saying that no one has received the Holy Spirit since the apostles?

 

[Webb]

Hi George

It seems you have the problem which we all at times have experienced, that of failing to "rightly divide the word of truth." I no longer have the time to devote to the forum as previously, the last few days being an exception. I will take time however to discuss the matter on the debate (one-on-one) section of this forum if you wish. Make your proposition or propositions as clear as possible and I will consider them for discussion.

God bless

 

[George Muller]

Hi George

It seems you have the problem which we all at times have experienced, that of failing to "rightly divide the word of truth." I no longer have the time to devote to the forum as previously, the last few days being an exception. I will take time however to discuss the matter on the debate (one-on-one) section of this forum if you wish. Make your proposition or propositions as clear as possible and I will consider them for discussion.

God bless

Of course we all can fail to see the truth of scripture at times, for it takes years of sincere study to understand the mystery of Godliness. I have made very clear points, using very clear scriptures that show the union of Christ is based upon the new "spiritual" birth. You have yourself agree with the points I have made. It seems we are only in conflict over the importance one lays upon the three scriptures of Acts 2. Which I have already addressed as a issue that is resolved though the whole counsel of the epistles.
As far as your ability to judge my ability to ''rightly divide" the Word? Your opinion has little weight as the scriptures I have used, speak to this issue before God and man.
As far as a one on one debate? I have seen nothing in your post here that bring any doubt upon the scriptures I have posted? Thus we have nothing to debate

But if you come up with something that seems to be in question? I might be glad to have a "honest'' discussion of that issue?

 

[Webb]

Hi George

Your points remain without proof and your decision not to go to the one-on-one is respected. Until otherwise, God bless

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What can any person do otherwise than what they had been taught from the preacher?

I had found in my own personal examination of the matter that this is a very important factor to consider when trying to discern how God does things in regard to the Holy Spirit.

We see people receiving the manifestation of the Spirit in gifts when they were told about them, but not receiving them when they did not know about them. That fact really helped me to better understand all this. The bottom line is, your experience with the Holy Spirit is going to follow that which you are taught about it.

The things of God are secured by faith...and faith comes by hearing the Word of God about those things. The converse is true: no hearing of the Word of God regarding something means no faith regarding whatever it is you do not know about. And 'no faith' means 'no receiving'. This is why I think the power of the Holy Spirit is virtually absent from the church. It all started with one person telling somebody else it wasn't for us, until now, where we have whole groups of people saying that power is not for us. How does faith to experience the power of the Holy Spirit come out of that kind of teaching?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi George

Your points remain without proof and your decision not to go to the one-on-one is respected. Until otherwise, God bless

George provided the proof.

 

[Webb]

Not from the scripture!