When Does Union With Christ Happen?

[George Muller]

Hi George

Your points remain without proof and your decision not to go to the one-on-one is respected. Until otherwise, God bless

If the scriptures I have posted are not considered proof on this issue? I doubt a one on one debate between us would produce much fruit? But thank you for your respectful manner and may the Lords Spirit be upon you.

 

[Webb]

George--Thanks for your consideration.
God bless

 

[Butch5]

Again I ask is the Spirit in Acts 10 a "different spirit" than the Spirit that saves all those who are born-again? I wonder at the point you are trying to make?

I was asking if what happened in Acts 10 was the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts? What happened in Acts 10 only happened in the presence of the apostles, at least as faras what is written.

well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how any could not see that the point is salvation had very much come to them when they had received the Holy Spirit? As far as one needing an apostle to be present to receive the Holy Spirit? I am not sure of your point at all?
Are you saying that no one has received the Holy Spirit since the apostles?

Hi George,

What I'm asking is this, when the Spirit fell on them was that a specific manifestation of the Spirit's power or was it the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I would argue that it was the manifestation of the Spirit's power. Notice what you quoted in Act 10:47, "which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we". This statement was in regard to what happened at Pentecost, would you agree? They spoke in tongue just as the apostles did at Pentecost. Now, my point is I don't believe what happened at Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the apostle the Holy Spirit before He ascended.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Joh 20:21-22 KJV)

It seems the apostles received the Spirit before what happened at Pentecost. It also seems that what happened at Pentecost wasn't the indwelling of the Spirit since the apostles already had the Spirit in them when Pentecost took place. So, if what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit and Peter said that what happened to Cornelius, speaking in tongues, was the same thing that happened to them, it would seem that the Holy Spirit falling on them was not the indwelling of the Spirit by rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power. That's why I asked if it was the indwelling of the manifestation of the Spirit.

Regarding the apostles, when the Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household they spoke in tongues. To my knowledge every time the Spirit fell on someone it was in the presence of an apostle. The bestowing of the Spiritual gifts was through the apostles, that included tongues. Again, if the event at Cornelius' house, the tongues, was the indwelling of the Spirit it would require one of the apostles to be present to bestow it. They are no longer around so how would someone today receive the Spirit?

 

[Deborah13]

The things of God are secured by faith...and faith comes by hearing the Word of God about those things.

Actually I think the scripture you posted was very clear when we are in "union with Christ"
Ephesians 1:13-14

New International Version (NIV)

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[George Muller]

Again I ask is the Spirit in Acts 10 a "different spirit" than the Spirit that saves all those who are born-again? I wonder at the point you are trying to make?

I was asking if what happened in Acts 10 was the indwelling of the Spirit or the manifestation of gifts? What happened in Acts 10 only happened in the presence of the apostles, at least as faras what is written.

well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how any could not see that the point is salvation had very much come to them when they had received the Holy Spirit? As far as one needing an apostle to be present to receive the Holy Spirit? I am not sure of your point at all?
Are you saying that no one has received the Holy Spirit since the apostles?

Hi George,

What I'm asking is this, when the Spirit fell on them was that a specific manifestation of the Spirit's power or was it the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I would argue that it was the manifestation of the Spirit's power. Notice what you quoted in Act 10:47, "which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we". This statement was in regard to what happened at Pentecost, would you agree? They spoke in tongue just as the apostles did at Pentecost. Now, my point is I don't believe what happened at Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the apostle the Holy Spirit before He ascended.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Joh 20:21-22 KJV)

It seems the apostles received the Spirit before what happened at Pentecost. It also seems that what happened at Pentecost wasn't the indwelling of the Spirit since the apostles already had the Spirit in them when Pentecost took place. So, if what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit and Peter said that what happened to Cornelius, speaking in tongues, was the same thing that happened to them, it would seem that the Holy Spirit falling on them was not the indwelling of the Spirit by rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power. That's why I asked if it was the indwelling of the manifestation of the Spirit.

Regarding the apostles, when the Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household they spoke in tongues. To my knowledge every time the Spirit fell on someone it was in the presence of an apostle. The bestowing of the Spiritual gifts was through the apostles, that included tongues. Again, if the event at Cornelius' house, the tongues, was the indwelling of the Spirit it would require one of the apostles to be present to bestow it. They are no longer around so how would someone today receive the Spirit?

So according to that logic, no one could receive the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit unless Jesus was present to breath it in to them.
No and I think it is clear through the scriptures I used that in fact these gentiles had received salvation.
Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I am really having a hard time understanding the point you are making?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Butch5]

well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how any could not see that the point is salvation had very much come to them when they had received the Holy Spirit? As far as one needing an apostle to be present to receive the Holy Spirit? I am not sure of your point at all?
Are you saying that no one has received the Holy Spirit since the apostles?

Hi George,

What I'm asking is this, when the Spirit fell on them was that a specific manifestation of the Spirit's power or was it the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I would argue that it was the manifestation of the Spirit's power. Notice what you quoted in Act 10:47, "which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we". This statement was in regard to what happened at Pentecost, would you agree? They spoke in tongue just as the apostles did at Pentecost. Now, my point is I don't believe what happened at Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the apostle the Holy Spirit before He ascended.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Joh 20:21-22 KJV)

It seems the apostles received the Spirit before what happened at Pentecost. It also seems that what happened at Pentecost wasn't the indwelling of the Spirit since the apostles already had the Spirit in them when Pentecost took place. So, if what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit and Peter said that what happened to Cornelius, speaking in tongues, was the same thing that happened to them, it would seem that the Holy Spirit falling on them was not the indwelling of the Spirit by rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power. That's why I asked if it was the indwelling of the manifestation of the Spirit.

Regarding the apostles, when the Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household they spoke in tongues. To my knowledge every time the Spirit fell on someone it was in the presence of an apostle. The bestowing of the Spiritual gifts was through the apostles, that included tongues. Again, if the event at Cornelius' house, the tongues, was the indwelling of the Spirit it would require one of the apostles to be present to bestow it. They are no longer around so how would someone today receive the Spirit?

So according to that logic, no one could receive the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit unless Jesus was present to breath it in to them.
No and I think it is clear through the scriptures I used that in fact these gentiles had received salvation.
Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I am really having a hard time understanding the point you are making?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hi George,

I was simply pointing out that the apostle had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. From that it would seem that what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit but rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power.

I notice here you quoted Acts 11. When this occurred it was after Cornelius and his household had been water baptized. I don't see how this supports your case. The Spirit fell on them and then they were water baptized, then when Peter had returned to Jerusalem the others met and questioned him.

 

[George Muller]

well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how any could not see that the point is salvation had very much come to them when they had received the Holy Spirit? As far as one needing an apostle to be present to receive the Holy Spirit? I am not sure of your point at all?
Are you saying that no one has received the Holy Spirit since the apostles?

Hi George,

What I'm asking is this, when the Spirit fell on them was that a specific manifestation of the Spirit's power or was it the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I would argue that it was the manifestation of the Spirit's power. Notice what you quoted in Act 10:47, "which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we". This statement was in regard to what happened at Pentecost, would you agree? They spoke in tongue just as the apostles did at Pentecost. Now, my point is I don't believe what happened at Pentecost was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the apostle the Holy Spirit before He ascended.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Joh 20:21-22 KJV)

It seems the apostles received the Spirit before what happened at Pentecost. It also seems that what happened at Pentecost wasn't the indwelling of the Spirit since the apostles already had the Spirit in them when Pentecost took place. So, if what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit and Peter said that what happened to Cornelius, speaking in tongues, was the same thing that happened to them, it would seem that the Holy Spirit falling on them was not the indwelling of the Spirit by rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power. That's why I asked if it was the indwelling of the manifestation of the Spirit.

Regarding the apostles, when the Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household they spoke in tongues. To my knowledge every time the Spirit fell on someone it was in the presence of an apostle. The bestowing of the Spiritual gifts was through the apostles, that included tongues. Again, if the event at Cornelius' house, the tongues, was the indwelling of the Spirit it would require one of the apostles to be present to bestow it. They are no longer around so how would someone today receive the Spirit?

So according to that logic, no one could receive the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit unless Jesus was present to breath it in to them.
No and I think it is clear through the scriptures I used that in fact these gentiles had received salvation.
Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I am really having a hard time understanding the point you are making?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hi George,

I was simply pointing out that the apostle had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. From that it would seem that what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit but rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power.

I notice here you quoted Acts 11. When this occurred it was after Cornelius and his household had been water baptized. I don't see how this supports your case. The Spirit fell on them and then they were water baptized, then when Peter had returned to Jerusalem the others met and questioned him.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I think the scripture is clear, they receieved the Holy Spirit and THEN was baptized.

Also I would ask again, are you trying to suggest that a Apostle needs to be present before one can receive the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus would need to come and breath into a person as He did in the scriptures? Your points do not make sense to me, nor do they abide in the whole counsel and truth of the scriptures.

 

[Webb]

Hi George

Can you think of anything unusual about the converson of Cornelius? Is there a reason inspiration (Luke by inspiration) consumed nearly two chapters on the conversion of this man and his house? His conversion is the only reference (after the establishment of the church) of anyone receiving the Spirit before baptism. Was that the same measure of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2:38 which clearly reads that the gift of the Holy Spirit follows baptism? If so, why the contradiction?

 

[Elijah674]

Ok?? whose Holy Spirit did King Saul have in O.T. 1 Sam. 10:6-9?? It is not possible to have the Holy Spirit given & then taken away other than by disobedience. (Acts 5:32)

And are you saying that Saul being turned into another MAN, was like some others on here?? Here is the record...

[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt [be turned into another man.]
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

--Elijah

 

[George Muller]

Hi George

Can you think of anything unusual about the converson of Cornelius? Is there a reason inspiration (Luke by inspiration) consumed nearly two chapters on the conversion of this man and his house? His conversion is the only reference (after the establishment of the church) of anyone receiving the Spirit before baptism. Was that the same measure of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2:38 which clearly reads that the gift of the Holy Spirit follows baptism? If so, why the contradiction?

It does not limit the receiving of the Holy Spirit to follow baptizm. It shows that Peter spoke what is true and what he understood at that time. We also see how the Holy Spirit had to teach Peter through dreams and visions the revelation of Gods Will, that seemed at conflict with his traditions. So to just focus upon these few scriptures and ignore the rest of Gods revelation is just not a true nor is it wise.
I suggest to you that all the scriptures are true and shine light upon the issue. To ignore the whole counsel and to focus upon a chosen section, is not acceptable for those of us who love the truth.

 

[gr8grace]

Are Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 a baptism in water that we as creatures do? Or is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[George Muller]

Ok?? whose Holy Spirit did King Saul have in O.T. 1 Sam. 10:6-9?? It is not possible to have the Holy Spirit given & then taken away other than by disobedience. (Acts 5:32)

And are you saying that Saul being turned into another MAN, was like some others on here?? Here is the record...

[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt [be turned into another man.]
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

--Elijah

Very simple, Before the Cross and after the Cross.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[George Muller]

Are Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 a baptism in water that we as creatures do? Or is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

The water baptism is a picture of being baptized into His death, The baptizm of the Holy Spirit is being brought into the Power of His Life.
God does not need man to perform the act to accomplish His Will of bringing men into the Life of Christ, as the scriptures prove.

 

[gr8grace]

Are Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 a baptism in water that we as creatures do? Or is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

The water baptism is a picture of being baptized into His death, The baptizm of the Holy Spirit is being brought into the Power of His Life.
God does not need man to perform the act to accomplish His Will of bringing men into the Life of Christ, as the scriptures prove.

Agreed. These verses are without a doubt the Holy Spirit baptism. And do not speak of water baptism.

Romans 6:3-4 brings this out in more detail.

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life

1. Baptized~~ baptizw Is aorist PASSIVE indicative. The passive voice indicates the subject as being acted upon. Baptism of the Spirit.

2.Baptism~~ baptisma is a noun, we cannot force action into a noun. It is used as an identification of the Spirits baptism that was imputed to the believer.(identification with Christ)

3.Dead~~vekros is plural. He was raised from DEATHS. Spiritual death and physical death.

verse 3 is the baptism of the spirit because it speaks of Jesus and His Spiritual death, the Death that paid for all sin and saves us from sin. He was still physically alive when He said, "It is finished."

Verse 4 speaks of His Physical death on the cross. {Union with Christ in His physical Death and Burial}
4~~Therefore we 'have been buried' {sunthapto}
with Him through identification/baptism
{by the Holy Spirit}
into His {physical} death,
in order that just as Christ was raised
up from deaths

 

[Butch5]

So according to that logic, no one could receive the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit unless Jesus was present to breath it in to them.
No and I think it is clear through the scriptures I used that in fact these gentiles had received salvation.
Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I am really having a hard time understanding the point you are making?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hi George,

I was simply pointing out that the apostle had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. From that it would seem that what happened at Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Spirit but rather a manifestation of the Spirit's power.

I notice here you quoted Acts 11. When this occurred it was after Cornelius and his household had been water baptized. I don't see how this supports your case. The Spirit fell on them and then they were water baptized, then when Peter had returned to Jerusalem the others met and questioned him.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I think the scripture is clear, they receieved the Holy Spirit and THEN was baptized.

George,

I think you're missing the point. When Peter made the statement in Act 10 that you quoted. The Spirit had just fallen on Cornelius. When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized. You can't use the statement in Acts 11 as proof that what happened (the Spirit falling on them) in Acts 10 is union with Christ because water baptism happened in between the two statements.

Also I would ask again, are you trying to suggest that a Apostle needs to be present before one can receive the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus would need to come and breath into a person as He did in the scriptures? Your points do not make sense to me, nor do they abide in the whole counsel and truth of the scriptures.

What I'm saying is that what happened at Cornelius' house only happened when an apostle was present, therefore it doesn't seem likely that this was the indwelling of the Spirit. This same thing happened in the OT where the Spirit manifested his power on someone, yet it was only temporary. Contrast that with Peter's word, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying one needs the apostles of Jesus breath to received the indwelling of the Spirit, however, the bestowing of the Spirits power only happened in the presence of the apostles. This seems to indicate that they are not the same thing.

 

[George Muller]

Are Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 a baptism in water that we as creatures do? Or is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

The water baptism is a picture of being baptized into His death, The baptizm of the Holy Spirit is being brought into the Power of His Life.
God does not need man to perform the act to accomplish His Will of bringing men into the Life of Christ, as the scriptures prove.

Agreed. These verses are without a doubt the Holy Spirit baptism. And do not speak of water baptism.

Romans 6:3-4 brings this out in more detail.

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life

1. Baptized~~ baptizw Is aorist PASSIVE indicative. The passive voice indicates the subject as being acted upon. Baptism of the Spirit.

2.Baptism~~ baptisma is a noun, we cannot force action into a noun. It is used as an identification of the Spirits baptism that was imputed to the believer.(identification with Christ)

3.Dead~~vekros is plural. He was raised from DEATHS. Spiritual death and physical death.

verse 3 is the baptism of the spirit because it speaks of Jesus and His Spiritual death, the Death that paid for all sin and saves us from sin. He was still physically alive when He said, "It is finished."

Verse 4 speaks of His Physical death on the cross. {Union with Christ in His physical Death and Burial}
4~~Therefore we 'have been buried' {sunthapto}
with Him through identification/baptism
{by the Holy Spirit}
into His {physical} death,
in order that just as Christ was raised
up from deaths

Yes I think that is clear. One must enter into the truth of these things to understand them, I think? The more we die with Christ the more we understand what baptizm is, the more we draw from His life the more we understand the power of the Spirit that swallows up death.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[George Muller]

George,

I think you're missing the point. When Peter made the statement in Act 10 that you quoted. The Spirit had just fallen on Cornelius. When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized. You can't use the statement in Acts 11 as proof that what happened (the Spirit falling on them) in Acts 10 is union with Christ because water baptism happened in between the two statements.

Also I would ask again, are you trying to suggest that a Apostle needs to be present before one can receive the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus would need to come and breath into a person as He did in the scriptures? Your points do not make sense to me, nor do they abide in the whole counsel and truth of the scriptures.

What I'm saying is that what happened at Cornelius' house only happened when an apostle was present, therefore it doesn't seem likely that this was the indwelling of the Spirit. This same thing happened in the OT where the Spirit manifested his power on someone, yet it was only temporary. Contrast that with Peter's word, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying one needs the apostles of Jesus breath to received the indwelling of the Spirit, however, the bestowing of the Spirits power only happened in the presence of the apostles. This seems to indicate that they are not the same thing.

again I think the very scriptures I posted prove that they did receive the indwelling of the Spirit as well as the outward display of the gifts of the Spirit. Its all right there in the context of the scriptures I posted.

The point is very evident. They receievd the Holy Spirit and this is the true standard of union with Christ.well clearly they had received the Holy Spirit and the gifts was also witnessed by Peter.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I dont see how it can be understood any other way?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is easy for me.

In this New Covenant, Christ gives the gifts of the Spirit to the members of his body. The fact that Cornelius received a spiritual gift shows he belonged to the body of Christ. He belonged to the body of Christ first (as evidenced by the bestowing of a gift of the Spirit), and then he was water baptized. He was in union with Christ before his water baptism.

 

[Deborah13]

When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized.

13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

I do not see anywhere that Peter is saying that Cornelius was already baptized in water. Quite the contrary is taught in Acts 10 and he repeats it here in Acts 11 by his vision. That gentiles could also receive the Holy Spirit and therefore, be baptized in water.

Before this revelation of Peter's at the house of Cornelius Gentiles were not baptized in water by John the Baptist or anyone. It was viewed as only for the Jews.

Acts 10:44
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.


I propose, that it was not the presence of the apostles that caused the Holy Spirit to fall on "all who were Listening" but the power of God's words, the message from God.
When we receive the Lord "the circumcision of the heart" it is not the preachers presence that causes us to receive but the Words of God, the Message of the Gospel. "God's Words are sharper than a two-edged sword".

 

[George Muller]

When The statement in Acts 11 was made, Cornelius had had the Spirit fall on him "and" had already been water baptized.

13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?â€

I do not see anywhere that Peter is saying that Cornelius was already baptized in water. Quite the contrary is taught in Acts 10 and he repeats it here in Acts 11 by his vision. That gentiles could also receive the Holy Spirit and therefore, be baptized in water.

Before this revelation of Peter's at the house of Cornelius Gentiles were not baptized in water by John the Baptist or anyone. It was viewed as only for the Jews.

Acts 10:44
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.


I propose, that it was not the presence of the apostles that caused the Holy Spirit to fall on "all who were Listening" but the power of God's words, the message from God.
When we receive the Lord "the circumcision of the heart" it is not the preachers presence that causes us to receive but the Words of God, the Message of the Gospel. "God's Words are sharper than a two-edged sword".

Thank you Deborah 13, I did not really even understand the point of his post, nor that there is any conflict to be seen in the clear reading of those scriptures.
I guess if one looks hard enough at any passage of scripture, a question or doubt can be brought in?