godsquadgeek
Member
That addresses the exodus passage, but not the romans 1 and hebrews 6 passage, which mention reprobate minds, and apostasy.
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When Even God gives up on us (Romans 1:26-2:1)
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
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Some people are predestined for damnation like Pharaoh and those men and women in Romans 1:26 as they chose to not acknowledge God of all creation and they are found without excuse when God judges them as they were never enlightened nor had the Holy Spirit.
Mike
Member
I guess I see clearly from all of scripture that all authority in the heavens and earth are His. He is not a God that wrings
His hands when someone doesn't do what we think they should, and I don't know of anyone in scripture who God believed in and then gave up on. Whether or not they ended up playing a roll that we in our limited knowledge deem uncooperative, they were a part of His plan. Romans 11:33-36
Did He give up on Joseph's brothers or did God use them to achieve His purpose for Joseph? How about Pontius Pilote? Was there wringing of hands in Heaven when they weren't following along until God finally lost hope? The answer to these rhetorical questions is "no". They were instruments in God's plan.
His hands when someone doesn't do what we think they should, and I don't know of anyone in scripture who God believed in and then gave up on. Whether or not they ended up playing a roll that we in our limited knowledge deem uncooperative, they were a part of His plan. Romans 11:33-36
Did He give up on Joseph's brothers or did God use them to achieve His purpose for Joseph? How about Pontius Pilote? Was there wringing of hands in Heaven when they weren't following along until God finally lost hope? The answer to these rhetorical questions is "no". They were instruments in God's plan.
It doesn't have to. What part of the Scripture reference I provided does not apply to Pharaoh?
Kidron
Member
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"Predestined for damnation" is an invention of a self righteous theological newbie."
This is the type theological rabbit trail mentality that you find with people who do not understand grace, or "the gift of righteousness" and probably never will, tho apparently it has been applied to them.
However, The very idea of someone being "predestined to be damned"...or in other words...."born to go to hell, and God caused it", is among the most devilish, satanic, and worst theology that can be committed against believers both from the pulpit and on public Christian forums.
Its horrible, its a lie, and the people who believe this theological rancidity and rot and who present it as theological fact have some accounting to do when they meet the Lord, and God himself, as this crazy, nutty, backwards, ignorant, theology, is actually accusing God himself of creating and CAUSING living human beings to GO to hell and burn.
What a thing to accuse God of, and then expect Him to just overlook it.
Self Righteous False Teacher beware.
godsquadgeek
Member
godsquadgeek
Member
Judas? One who was called of God for strengths not only a christian could have but a strong christian. Forfeited His salvation for riches. As in Hebrews 6:4 states he left his salvation due to being enticed by riches. God, who at one time chose him carefully among the thousands to be a disciple, (only one of twelve), eventually would say of him "it is better that He was never born" Matthew 26:24. The only thing that changes was the level of sin in Judas, God's calling never changed. At any point Had Judas repented He would have been forgiven as any of us. But something kept Judas from His repentance, and it was a hardening of the heart, through a reprobate mind. And we know this when Jesus told satan after possessing Judas to "do it quickly" . Jesus could have rebuked satan out of Judas, but He didn't. Showing and proving that God had at that point given up on him. Some say that Judas was never saved, but then how would God not know that Judas was not saved and why would He choose a vessel that would be inhabited by God? for His Glory? But at that point it would theatrics and lies. For it would be a lie to choose someone that looked like a christian but was not one just to bring Glory to oneself. I presume God would not lie, to bring Glory. So we must accept that He was in fact saved, like all the rest of the disciples.
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God doesn't cause anyone to go to hell as that is the result of ones freewill choice of disobedience to God. God predesignated us from the foundation of the world that we would be His own, but not all will be His. Freewill caused Adams fall and continues in all of disobedience so ya, they of disobedience are predestined to hell unless they turn repent and turn back to God. Romans 8:29, 30; Romans 9:21-24; Ephesians 1:3-14.
Why not just answer the question?
How does this not apply to Pharaoh?
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
:nod :nod :nod
godsquadgeek
Member
Is there a such thing as a free-will in the moral/immoral sense? Much of this is semantics.
Romans 8:20. The issue is a moral/immoral issue that begins with the occasion for vanity in the creation, and I would say that scripture describes that vanity as taking for granted the life animating sentience that God's Spirit is in all created and living things, including the righteousness found in both angels and mankind. The opposite of this vanity would therefore be a humility that acknowledges God's Eternal power in all living things, including their order of intelligence and all other attributes according to God's providence and wisdom. Thereby for vanity's sake do we also recognize our own weakness to be righteous according to the disability of sin inherent in the flesh.
Having said that, we should consider that we are reasoning upon a false premise if we assume that it would be unfair for God to predestine anyone to go to hell since by logical extension that must also include to predestine anyone to go to heaven. Romans 5:12. Romans 6:23. Since according to scripture all of mankind is deserving of death, God would not be unfair to let all die much less to have mercy upon whom He chooses to.
And so for the occasion of vanity, it should be understood why it is just and right that salvation and the hope of eternal life should come by grace through faith, so that the Creator should be glorified and not the creatures. 1 Corinthians 1:28, 29. Even so as to recognize that such grace is afforded through faith in acknowledging Christ's substitutionary death according to the promise God made to Abraham should we value His mercy. And therein God says that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden. Hence whomever is saved is saved through mercy and it will not be unjust of God to not have mercy upon all those who are hardened.
Romans 8:20. The issue is a moral/immoral issue that begins with the occasion for vanity in the creation, and I would say that scripture describes that vanity as taking for granted the life animating sentience that God's Spirit is in all created and living things, including the righteousness found in both angels and mankind. The opposite of this vanity would therefore be a humility that acknowledges God's Eternal power in all living things, including their order of intelligence and all other attributes according to God's providence and wisdom. Thereby for vanity's sake do we also recognize our own weakness to be righteous according to the disability of sin inherent in the flesh.
Having said that, we should consider that we are reasoning upon a false premise if we assume that it would be unfair for God to predestine anyone to go to hell since by logical extension that must also include to predestine anyone to go to heaven. Romans 5:12. Romans 6:23. Since according to scripture all of mankind is deserving of death, God would not be unfair to let all die much less to have mercy upon whom He chooses to.
And so for the occasion of vanity, it should be understood why it is just and right that salvation and the hope of eternal life should come by grace through faith, so that the Creator should be glorified and not the creatures. 1 Corinthians 1:28, 29. Even so as to recognize that such grace is afforded through faith in acknowledging Christ's substitutionary death according to the promise God made to Abraham should we value His mercy. And therein God says that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden. Hence whomever is saved is saved through mercy and it will not be unjust of God to not have mercy upon all those who are hardened.
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godsquadgeek
Member
Romans 8:29 which you quoted proves the opposite of what you said. It's says "whom He foreknew those He predestined". Not the opposite. That is that foreknowledge is the basis of election. When you form a ball team in sports you choose the best throwers and the best ball hitters, you don't choose those who don't perform, if you have the choice. Sovereignty which we don't comprehend also forms part of election, but most already understand and know that part of the election process (2 Tim. 1:9
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They had polytheism because they rejected God and created their own gods. Remember, we all can trace back to two, Adam and Eve. Both Adam and Eve knew God. Humankind later rejected God and created its own gods. That's one of the reasons why Romans 1:20 applies to everyone, all the way back to the beginning, and none are without excuse.
godsquadgeek
Member
God foreknew all of His creation as all are created in His image and also with freewill and it's the freewill part that have caused many to fall away from Him by the choices they make so I will stand on what I already said.
Romans 8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
godsquadgeek
Member
In what way did He for know us? I believe He, being in time past not just knew us personally from time past, but could see our life all in a twinkle of an eye. Our life is just a vapor. But to God our life is already expired. As He sees the end from the beginning. It makes sense that election and predestination would be based on the fact that He already knew our lives ahead of time. Doesn't it? You said "God predestines...to hell" and I don't believe that. I believe that all the occasions of predestination refer to the righteous life only. Romans 8:29 mentions that fact that He foreknew all of our sins and lives ahead of time. So He know who would choose Him and who would not, and based on that verse He elects those to whom in return make wiser choices in following Him. So sin is reflected in the fact that we would be elect or not.
Mike
Member
Are you suggesting that God put his confidence in Judas, then things went south, so He gave up on him and had to improvise His plan of salvation? I guess we simply have different views of the authority, omniscience, and control of God. As for me, I'll agree to disagree.
Be blessed, brother.
I never said God predestines anyone to hell. I did say in post 20 God has predestined from the foundation of the world who are His and the rest will have their hearts hardened for Gods purpose that through his great power and authority in His chastisements others may fear the wrath of God and turn back to Him.
Foreseen faith is not what foreknew means. Mathew 7:23 speaks on how those who were cast out because God never knew them. This speaks of a love set upon a sinner and favor in terms of a relationship God ordained from eternity past. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;). So foreseen faith or obedience had nothing to do for whom God bestows mercy upon. If that’s the case then salvation is of works.. and nullifies grace. Much could be said of this passage but this pretty much explains election and those predestined unto eternal life and those not. As in the case of Jeremiah, before I formed thee I knew thee..