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When to obey/disobey gov't

he didn't tell zachias to stop being a collector, just to collect justly.

Hi Jason. Thanks for clarifying. Can you quote the place where Jesus tells Zacchaeus to continue on with his tax collecting, but only that he should do so justly?

remember that matthew and zachias were saved tax collectors.

What I see in the written account is that Matthew quit his job to follow Jesus and Zach gave away half his wealth and used whatever was left to pay back those he'd defrauded 4 times over again.

LK 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
LK 5:28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

LK 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

it makes no sense to not to pay for things that aren't just and also work for that system when jesus gave no command to have them stop being that way.

I think I understand what you're getting at here, but from what I can see he did give commands for people to stop living "that way". He taught people to become born again, like little children learning completely new values which he called the Kingdom of Heaven. Part of those new values is that our new job is to seek first the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 6:33). Jesus tells us to consider the birds and flowers precisely because they don't work for money and yet God still takes care of them (matt 6:25-30).

Taxes represent man's best effort at counterfeiting the kingdom of Heaven. The concept of giving a portion of your wealth to a central body which then uses that portion to improve the quality of life for everyone is pretty close to what Jesus taught but unless it's done the way Jesus taught then it's not the system we should be promoting.
 
in the account did jesus tell him to stop being a tax collector. how can a man repay the debts if he stole all his money and still work? he(zacheus quoted the torah to jesus on what a theif was to do. repay four fold. if you have no job that is kinda hard to do) I don't base positions on an argument of silence. its implied as jesus didn't tell him to stop being one. if it was a sin, jesus would have said that, and it wasn't.

uhm the taxes collector by both matthew and zacheus were for roads. so we should not use roads?
so where does it say by jesus:
freedom of religion?
freedom of speech?
its not there In the bible. so we should pay taxes to a theocratic state?
 
im not going arguing pacifism. sorry but defending any thing that is taken even by prayer isn't pacifism. praying for god to avenge your wrong isn't pacifism. praying to god for it back is love in what manner? that is called justice. god does love that but uhm justice from him? that kinda negates that position of a pacifist. im not a pacifist. sorry, the romans 13 is clear. give honor and tribute to whom. tribute is akin to money.
 
That is your honest view of that scripture, that it doesn't allow for self defense. I see that it doesn't negate self-defense. So we just see that differently

Well, yeah I think "self defense" does kinda go against the spirit of the teaching. I think the teachings themselves ARE our defense. I'm not suggesting that we should be irresponsible or foolish, but then again laying our lives down when we could defend them does sound foolish, on the surface. Winning through losing just doesn't make much sense, especially when we personally are the ones being asked to lose.

It's a bit like Jesus describing the end times, how we will be persecuted and killed, and then saying, "but not a hair on your head will be harmed". How can we be killed and not a hair on our head harmed? Probably because Jesus is looking at the bigger picture where these physical bodies are expendable because they're meant to be temporary anyway. Physical bodies die but the soul is not harmed.

There are times when God may want us to lay our lives down for the sake of demonstrating the bigger picture of how love overcomes hate even in the face of death. Self defense has a tendency to take the decision making out of God's hands and in our efforts to save our life we may end up missing the opportunity he set up to demonstrate the values of Heaven through our willingness to lose our life.

I am reminded of Rev 12:
REV 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
 
yet paul used roman soldiers to save him. the roman army didn't have less then lethal tactics like we do today. they didn't just ask the jews ok let him go. the found paul as he was known by them were he was in hiding and they took him by force from the jewish town if they were confronted the jews died if they dared to attack that group. which I doubt.
 
he(zacheus quoted the torah to jesus on what a theif was to do. repay four fold. if you have no job that is kinda hard to do)

I don't understand your logic here. If I steal $100 from someone, I don't see why I'd first need to go out and get a job before I can return the $100, unless you're suggesting the money was already spent so I'd need the job to earn the money to pay back the theft? Maybe.

However, the text doesn't go into those kind of details nor does Zacchaeus imply that he does not already have the money. The opposite is more likely. He simply says that half his money will be given away and (presumably with the other half) he pays back those he stole from. His announcement describes what appears to be very similar behavior to the disciples who quit their jobs as a result of hearing Jesus' teachings on money and materialism.

uhm the taxes collector by both matthew and zacheus were for roads. so we should not use roads?

I don't understand how you reached this conclusion. EDIT: Sorry, I think I should clarify that I do see roads as a good thing. I'm just not sure what I said to give you the impression that I don't.

so where does it say by jesus:
freedom of religion?
freedom of speech?
its not there In the bible. so we should pay taxes to a theocratic state?

Sorry, I don't understand the connection you're making here.
 
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This is the apologetic forum. Please include the scriptural support for opposing viewpoints.
 
The book of Revelation goes against Romans 13.

At the time Nebuchadnezzar was king of the Earth. You were ordered by God to submit to him else suffer death. All Zedekiah had to do was step down peacefully and go to babylon and we would not have been killed and Jerusalem burned has he just listened to Jeremiah. But his heart was too proud. He tried to escape and was deliver to the chaldeans.

Jesus was clear that we were to obey the government and treat the world and God separate. John the baptist said we ought to be happy with our wages.

Submit to the goverment is clear throughout the bible.

Mathew 5:25 "25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

Mathew 22:21 "They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Luke 20:25 "And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's."
Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

John 19:10-11 "Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

Romans 13:1-3 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

Romans 13:4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Romans 13:6-7 "6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."

1 Timothy 1:9-10 "9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

1 Peter 2:13-14 "13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well."
1 Peter 2:17-18 "17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."

2 Peter 2:10 "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."

What then is going on in the book of Revelation?

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Show me where Jesus as a man, said the time is coming when you will have to resist the government or face eternal damnation. He never said the time is coming when belief in me will do nothing. Rather we are told we will be delivered up to rulers and etc....but to take no thought about what to say because the Holy Ghost will provide what you need.

Yet thats essentially what you are doing when flat out refuse to take the mark of the beast. Revelation 14:11 "11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Compare that to

Romans 13:1-2 "
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Those two verses are clearly in opposition to each other.
 
John the baptist said we ought to be happy with our wages.

John was an Old Testament prophet. Jesus' teachings supersede John's and Jesus didn't teach, "be happy with your wages".
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Submit to the goverment is clear throughout the bible.

Depends on how you interpret each sitatuation

Mathew 5:25 "25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;

Depends on what your adversary wants you to do. If a cop pulls me over and asks me to perform a sobriety test (and I know I'm sober) I could become indignant and argue my way into deeper trouble, or I could just perform the test and move along.

Mathew 22:21 "They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

After we've given to God what belongs to him, what's left for Caesar?

John 19:10-11 "Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

I'm not sure how this is meant to be an example of submitting to government. I think you meant it to show that God sometimes gives authority to earthly governments? Except that it also shows there are times when God does not give such authority.

Romans 13:1-3 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

I'm inclined to believe passages like this were added by government authorities themselves, but it's probably more likely a government-hired translator was pressured somewhere along the way and took extreme journalistic license with the original sentiment. Either way it doesn't matter since we have so many other references to go by. Government authorities may be ordained by God at some point, but in just about every case it doesn't take long for them to become very far from God.

Romans 13:4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

If I find a governmental employee who's being a minister of God then I'd be far more inclined to abide by that person's judgment. However, I suspect the bottom line of this teaching is more about Christians not getting the idea that they are above the worldly law just because they are "in the world but not of it". Paul said something like this to the Galatians in that Christians should not use their freedom as an excuse to be selfish.(Gal 5:13).

Romans 13:6-7 "6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Government employees attending constantly on being ministers of God? When circumstances consistent with what this verse describes presents itself, I'll be willing to talk about dues.

Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."

Thanks for including this. I think it presents good balance to the issue. All those teachings about obeying powers and honoring the king etc, they only make sense in the context of being "in the world but not of it". As peace makers we need to get along with our neighbors. If that means following some of their rules, then that's what we should do. Some of those rules are quite helpful or even consistent with our own rules.

I think most Christians have a basic concept of following their conscience when it comes to really clear issues like governments outlawing Christianity.

The problem becomes more tricky when the rules are much closer to being consistent with Christianity yet still fundamentally different, like (hypothetically) churches being forced to declare how they use their finances. In some ways this could be good in keeping church leaders accountable financially and cracking down on fraud, but it would also obligate them to talk about their charitable giving (if they do any), which Jesus said we should keep secret.
 
Jumping in, so probably saying what was already said.
When the government has policy that opposes the Word of God, then you have the signs of a decaying or fallen society, that persecutes those who live by the Word of God.
 
to assume that the government ONLY will do things against god isn't reality. remember your job can pass rules on no proselytizing, bible study even on break time. they may also support some ungodly things.ie Disney.
 
I don't understand your logic here. If I steal $100 from someone, I don't see why I'd first need to go out and get a job before I can return the $100,...
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”
Jason quoted the scripture and applied it correctly. If as a Christian or as a Jew steal,, in any manor a hundred dollars, I do not, scripturally owed the offended a hundred dollars. If we applied the dumbed down, modern, revisionist "interpretation" of fourfold, I will owe the victim four hundred dollar but using the correct understanding and application folding the hundred, if we fold it once it is 200, if we fold it twice it is 400, if we fold it three times it is 800 but if we fold it four times it is 1600 dollars.

When discussing Scriptural references we must understand them and cease this stupidity the Revisionist is involved in doing. Now John, I read several posts up to the one I quoted, please support you position, if you insist on disobeying the rules of this forum, with scripture. And then, none, should respond to thiks posting, it will be for understanding only and go back to the OP and base the comments on that, as I believe this forum still requires.
 
to assume that the government ONLY will do things against god isn't reality. remember your job can pass rules on no proselytizing, bible study even on break time. they may also support some ungodly things.ie Disney.
This is true, how are these rules at work against God? I understand that when I am at work and I am taking someone else's money to do that job, then that's what I should be doing. That in and of itself is a good witness for the Lord. If I willingly enter into a contract than my witness as a Christian says that I must do as I promised to do. If I don't like the rules then I am free to leave that job.
 
This is true, how are these rules at work against God? I understand that when I am at work and I am taking someone else's money to do that job, then that's what I should be doing. That in and of itself is a good witness for the Lord. If I willingly enter into a contract than my witness as a Christian says that I must do as I promised to do. If I don't like the rules then I am free to leave that job.
noticed I said on my own time.

that said, if all the gated communites didn't allow for solicitation and most don't, is that not also hindering the word? it can be , I don't see that all shops and stores would or could stop solicitation in their parking lots.
 
The book of Revelation goes against Romans 13.

Revelation 14:11 "11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Compare that to

Romans 13:1-2 "
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Those two verses are clearly in opposition to each other.
This is on topic and you have ripped and, in my opinion, rapped scripture without expounding on how you arrived where you are. Please expound further. In my heart and in my soul these two verses ripped out of their context do not even appear to disagree and it is well known by any that study under the leading of the Holy Spirit that there is no conflict in scripture. I give this, only as a point of truth, and it will not become a point of discussion, running down a rabbit trail but please tell us how you arrived here, with scripture, not opinions nor personal experience.
 
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”
Jason quoted the scripture and applied it correctly. If as a Christian or as a Jew steal,, in any manor a hundred dollars, I do not, scripturally owed the offended a hundred dollars. If we applied the dumbed down, modern, revisionist "interpretation" of fourfold, I will owe the victim four hundred dollar but using the correct understanding and application folding the hundred, if we fold it once it is 200, if we fold it twice it is 400, if we fold it three times it is 800 but if we fold it four times it is 1600 dollars.

When discussing Scriptural references we must understand them and cease this stupidity the Revisionist is involved in doing. Now John, I read several posts up to the one I quoted, please support you position, if you insist on disobeying the rules of this forum, with scripture. And then, none, should respond to thiks posting, it will be for understanding only and go back to the OP and base the comments on that, as I believe this forum still requires.
Bill, where in scripture do you get this definition of fourfold? Or where in the Hebrew or Greek languages do you get this definition of fourfold?
 
noticed I said on my own time.

that said, if all the gated communites didn't allow for solicitation and most don't, is that not also hindering the word? it can be , I don't see that all shops and stores would or could stop solicitation in their parking lots.
If you leave their premises and in no way are seen to be representing their company then they don't have anything to say about it, unless you agreed to that.
So that would mean covering a shirt that may have their logo or driving their vehicle.
 
[URL='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Luke%2016.16'][URL='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Luke%2016.16']John was an Old Testament prophet. Jesus' teachings supersede John's and Jesus didn't teach, "be happy with your wages".[/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Luke%2016.16'][/URL]
[URL='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Luke%2016.16']Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.Luke 16:16[/URL] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

And
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.Luke 16:16[/URL] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

And
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
John, you are doing what we are three times in scripture commanded to never do here. Read Revelation 22:18 & 19 and then either Chain Reference or google for the one in Leviticus and the third time we are issued this command, but the address I have forgotten. Now about John, John appeared on the Earth within months preceding the birth of Jesus, well after God ceased to speak to the people making John the Baptist a New testament prophet.
 
Bill, where in scripture do you get this definition of fourfold? Or where in the Hebrew or Greek languages do you get this definition of fourfold?
Deb,
About 61 years ago I was learning third grade math so I must tell the truth, I first learned the math principal in the third grade at the HISD Public school System and my dad, my mom and my Grandfather, all, confirmed the teaching. We even had a young man that was warned that if he did, what ever it was, one more time he would not do fifty push ups but would do fourfold fifty. He laughed, saying he could easily give Sgt. Brown 200. Sgt. Brown then explained how to fold fifty to the kid and he never did that again.
 
Deb,
About 61 years ago I was learning third grade math so I must tell the truth, I first learned the math principal in the third grade at the HISD Public school System and my dad, my mom and my Grandfather, all, confirmed the teaching. We even had a young man that was warned that if he did, what ever it was, one more time he would not do fifty push ups but would do fourfold fifty. He laughed, saying he could easily give Sgt. Brown 200. Sgt. Brown then explained how to fold fifty to the kid and he never did that again.
G5073 -
tetraploos
tet-rap-lo'-os
From G5064 and a derivative of the base of G4118; quadruple: - fourfold.
Quadruplets are four babies not 16 babies. Thank goodness, says a mom and dad when the doc says they are having quads.
 
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