WHERE DO CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ORIGINATE? BAPTISM

[GodsGrace]

No, there are not.
They can't confess and repent of sin, neither can they commit sin to repent of? (1 John 1:9)
What sins are being washed away by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins? (Acts 2:38)
Baptism must be a choice for it to actually kill the old man of sin and allow the new man to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4-6)

The "promise" was to all men world wide, present and future.
But there are conditions babies and children cannot meet.

You follow a doctrine based on suppositions.
I am not willing to discard or twist scripture in order to recruite children into a false teachings mill.

I will be content to follow what is written in the bible.

You have a problem with this Hopeful, due to your last sentence.
What did people do before there was a bible?
They learned from their elders - until someone decided to put everything down in writing, maybe it was Moses. Maybe there was more than one writer, we can't know for sure. But God manages to get His message out to us, one way or another.

The persons that came directly after Jesus knew what He taught.
John baptized for the forgiveness of sins, but one would come after him that would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
We baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told us to do in Matthew 28:19.

Babies are welcomed into the Christian community and the original sin of Adam is washed away from their soul.
It is then UP TO THEM, at a later time, to decide if they wish to empower the Holy Spirit or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

The false "churches" started coming out of the woodwork as soon as Christ was resurrected.
Any "church" that differs from those written of in the bible are false.
Any teaching that is not biblical is not from God.

It was titled "the church by Christ Jesus", in Eph 3:21.

The original church is alive and well.
And it lives according to scripture.

So much for free will.
That is called forced religion.

Heresy.
What sin can a baby commit?

Straight out of the Judaizer's handbook.

Men must be cognizant of their past sins in order to repent of them. (1 John 1:9)
How can babies feel remorse for sin? (2 Cor 7:10)

Frankly, it is a waste of the Lord's blood to use it to wash sins from the sinless.

It seems this guy has yet to read a bible.
Instead of obeying what had been written by the apostles, they "enumerated" their own interpretations based on a strawman.
That being that babies needed baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Misinformation was passed down too.
A little leaven leaventh the whole lump.

Why do you defend baptism without repentance from sin?

Because I understand why infants were baptized and you refuse to.
I think adults should be baptized.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that babies belong to God and He wishes them to come to Him to receive all the graces possible.

I think we should stop discussing this since nothing is getting into your mind.
BTW, did Jesus say to read the NT (which didn't exist yet) or did He say to do as He taught?
Matthew 7:24....
24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock.
26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

 

[Mungo]

Like baptizing sinless babies?

Sinless babies still need to be baptised for reasons I gave and the scriptures I gave..

As soon as they realize they are a child of Adam and feel the real remorse necessary for their repentance to be permanent, then they can confess and be water baptized..

In your opinion. You give no scripture to back up this claim.

Yep, through Adam came death.
But we are all responsible for our own sins.
Children will not be condemned for the sins of their fathers.

No, but we are all affected by the sin of Adam
And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man.
Rom 5:16-17
I don't see any exception for babies there.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
I don't see any exception for babies there.

Until a child commits a sin, he is not a "child of wrath".

Paul says in Eph 2:3 "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
We are children of wrath by nature not because we personally sin.
And I don't see any exception for babies there.

If the baptized has no sin to confess and be washed of, the baptism is a waste of time.
A man must know what he is dying for.
Baptism is the death and burial of the old man, with Christ.
If there was no deed to die for, what use is there in the death?

Baptism is much more than just forgiving sins.
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

Then it doesn't count.
The parents cannot repent of sin for their child.

Babies have no personal sins to repent of so your point is void.

That is a false doctrine.

What is false about it?

You are just ignoring the scriptures I posted earlier.

What scriptures did I ignore?

Babies are born without sin.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sin.

Baptism is not just for the remission of sin.
As I posted above
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

Your baby baptizing doctrine condemns all the aborted kids.

No it doesn't

 

[Walpole]

The false "churches" started coming out of the woodwork as soon as Christ was resurrected.
Any "church" that differs from those written of in the bible are false.
Any teaching that is not biblical is not from God.

It was titled "the church by Christ Jesus", in Eph 3:21.

The original church is alive and well.
And it lives according to scripture.

So much for free will.
That is called forced religion.

Heresy.
What sin can a baby commit?

Straight out of the Judaizer's handbook.

Men must be cognizant of their past sins in order to repent of them. (1 John 1:9)
How can babies feel remorse for sin? (2 Cor 7:10)

Frankly, it is a waste of the Lord's blood to use it to wash sins from the sinless.

It seems this guy has yet to read a bible.
Instead of obeying what had been written by the apostles, they "enumerated" their own interpretations based on a strawman.
That being that babies needed baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Misinformation was passed down too.
A little leaven leaventh the whole lump.

Why do you defend baptism without repentance from sin?

I love this false church charge; it's one of my favorites.

There is an account for every heresy and sect that popped up from antiquity, starting with the gnostics at the very outset of Christianity. Each time one of these new sects arose, there was always some fighting, debates, leaders, people opposing them, and even Councils held to condemn or clarify the Christian faith.

But, NO ONE pops up in history and says, "Hey, who are these new heretics, the Catholics?"

 

[Hopeful]

You have a problem with this Hopeful, due to your last sentence.
What did people do before there was a bible?
They learned from their elders - until someone decided to put everything down in writing, maybe it was Moses. Maybe there was more than one writer, we can't know for sure. But God manages to get His message out to us, one way or another.

The persons that came directly after Jesus knew what He taught.
John baptized for the forgiveness of sins, but one would come after him that would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
We baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told us to do in Matthew 28:19.

Babies are welcomed into the Christian community and the original sin of Adam is washed away from their soul.
It is then UP TO THEM, at a later time, to decide if they wish to empower the Holy Spirit or not.

Original sin as a false doctrine.
It is written..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezec 18:20)
Children don't carry the sins of their predecessors.

 

[Hopeful]

Because I understand why infants were baptized and you refuse to.
I think adults should be baptized.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that babies belong to God and He wishes them to come to Him to receive all the graces possible.

I think we should stop discussing this since nothing is getting into your mind.
BTW, did Jesus say to read the NT (which didn't exist yet) or did He say to do as He taught?
Matthew 7:24....
24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock.
26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

If baby baptism was from God, the children would never commit a sin.
Their "flesh" with the affections and lusts, would have been crucified with Christ, (Gal 5:24), so they would not commit sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Sinless babies still need to be baptised for reasons I gave and the scriptures I gave..



In your opinion. You give no scripture to back up this claim.

No, but we are all affected by the sin of Adam
And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man.
Rom 5:16-17
I don't see any exception for babies there.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
I don't see any exception for babies there.


Paul says in Eph 2:3 "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
We are children of wrath by nature not because we personally sin.
And I don't see any exception for babies there.


Baptism is much more than just forgiving sins.
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.


Babies have no personal sins to repent of so your point is void.



What is false about it?



What scriptures did I ignore?


Baptism is not just for the remission of sin.
As I posted above
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.


No it doesn't

Your doctrine means Ezec 18:20 is a lie...."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
God's word contains no lies.

 

[Hopeful]

I love this false church charge; it's one of my favorites.

There is an account for every heresy and sect that popped up from antiquity, starting with the gnostics at the very outset of Christianity. Each time one of these new sects arose, there was always some fighting, debates, leaders, people opposing them, and even Councils held to condemn or clarify the Christian faith.

But, NO ONE pops up in history and says, "Hey, who are these new heretics, the Catholics?"

By the time mass communication was available the catholics were an old heresy.

 

[Mungo]

Your doctrine means Ezec 18:20 is a lie...."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
God's word contains no lies.

It is obvious that you do not understand what Original Sin means.
It's fully Biblical.
When Adam sinned, the consequences of that sin affected all mankind. This is because Adam was tested on behalf of all mankind. It is the principle of representation. Adam represented all mankind and if he passed the test he would be rewarded with eternal life. If he failed he would be subject to eternal death.

But Adam sinned as Paul says in Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Then verse 15-19 spell out the consequences for us all.
15. For if many died through one man's trespass………
16. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, ………….
17. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, …………
18. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men,………
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,……

When Adam sinned there was a fundamental change in mankind’s relation with God. God no longer walked on the earth with man

There was fundamental change in the relationship between man and woman (Gen 3:16)

There was a fundamental change in the relationship between man and nature (Gen 3:17-19)

There was fundamental change in nature itself (Rom 8:19-22)

All this we inherit. They are the results of Adam's sin - the original sin

But there is more. Adam (and therefore we) lost the original holiness that God created Adam with. We came under condemnation and are unable to receive eternal life.

Moreover we also believe that the control of the will over our desires was weakened so we are subject to concupiscence. Hence Paul says “I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.” (Rom 7:18-20)

It was this same principle of representation that brought us acquittal through Christ.
Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:18-19).

In our natural state we are “in Adam” and in condemnation, and unable to receive eternal life or become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4). God has to move us from being “in Adam” to being “in Christ”, to bring us out of condemnation.

Or as Paul says:
He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col 1:13-14).

The power of darkness being Satan, who became the “ruler of this world” when Adam chose to trust Satan’s word rather than God’s.

It is this movement from being "in Adam" to being "in Christ" that we call Justification. and God justifies us (initially) in baptism.

 

[Mungo]

Children don't carry the sins of their predecessors.

Children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves.
See my post above.

 

[Hopeful]

It is obvious that you do not understand what Original Sin means.
It's fully Biblical.
When Adam sinned, the consequences of that sin affected all mankind. This is because Adam was tested on behalf of all mankind. It is the principle of representation. Adam represented all mankind and if he passed the test he would be rewarded with eternal life. If he failed he would be subject to eternal death.

But Adam sinned as Paul says in Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Then verse 15-19 spell out the consequences for us all.
15. For if many died through one man's trespass………
16. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, ………….
17. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, …………
18. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men,………
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,……

When Adam sinned there was a fundamental change in mankind’s relation with God. God no longer walked on the earth with man

There was fundamental change in the relationship between man and woman (Gen 3:16)

There was a fundamental change in the relationship between man and nature (Gen 3:17-19)

There was fundamental change in nature itself (Rom 8:19-22)

All this we inherit. They are the results of Adam's sin - the original sin

But there is more. Adam (and therefore we) lost the original holiness that God created Adam with. We came under condemnation and are unable to receive eternal life.

Moreover we also believe that the control of the will over our desires was weakened so we are subject to concupiscence. Hence Paul says “I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.” (Rom 7:18-20)

It was this same principle of representation that brought us acquittal through Christ.
Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:18-19).

In our natural state we are “in Adam” and in condemnation, and unable to receive eternal life or become partakers of the divine nature (2Pet 1:4). God has to move us from being “in Adam” to being “in Christ”, to bring us out of condemnation.

Or as Paul says:
He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col 1:13-14).

The power of darkness being Satan, who became the “ruler of this world” when Adam chose to trust Satan’s word rather than God’s.

It is this movement from being "in Adam" to being "in Christ" that we call Justification. and God justifies us (initially) in baptism.

Adam brought death to mankind.
His sin is not charged to anyone else. (Ezec 18:20)

 

[Hopeful]

Children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves.
See my post above.

So water baptism washes away death?

Fact is, water baptism causes death.
It is the means of the killing of the old man so a new creature can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
That old man was dead in trespasses and sins.
Something babies are incapable of committing

 

[Mungo]

Adam brought death to mankind.
His sin is not charged to anyone else. (Ezec 18:20)

I didn't say it was.
I said children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves.

 

[Mungo]

So water baptism washes away death?

I never claimed it did.

Fact is, water baptism causes death.
It is the means of the killing of the old man so a new creature can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
That old man was dead in trespasses and sins.
Something babies are incapable of committing

Babies still are affected by the sin of Adam. See post #49 which you have failed to answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Original sin as a false doctrine.
It is written..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezec 18:20)
Children don't carry the sins of their predecessors.

Hopeful,
Please listen. You don't seem to listen...
Without getting too complicated with this matter...
the CC does NOT teach that the sin of the father is imputed to the son.
I've already said this a few times to you --- Protestants believe exactly the same, so why the problem?

You say the soul that sinneth it shall die.
Every soul sinneth in their life.
Babies are not baptized because they've commited a sin.
Romans clearly states that because of the sin of one, all shall die - so can we put that idea aside please?
(all means every single person that is born shall die).

Original sin took place at the beginning of the spiritual history of man.
We are MARKED by this sin of the first man, Adam.
Because of Him we have lost the preternatural gifts that had been given to the first human, perfectly
in sync with God's laws. But they broke one, they disobeyed, and thus they lost the original relationship with God and it became damaged.
Romans 5:12-19

The sin of Adam is not a personal sin, but is a sin nonetheless.
Infants are baptized even though they have not committed any sin, the why is explained several times in this thread.
Baptism turns a man back to the original relationship with God.
Whether or not he wishes to accept this will be evident in time as the infant grows older.
God's grace should not be deprived to anyone, even chidlren.

 

[GodsGrace]

If baby baptism was from God, the children would never commit a sin.
Their "flesh" with the affections and lusts, would have been crucified with Christ, (Gal 5:24), so they would not commit sin.

You say the above because of your personal beliefs, which we won't get into.

However, the rest of Christianity does not agree with your understanding of sin,
so I'll leave the above post of yours alone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam brought death to mankind.
His sin is not charged to anyone else. (Ezec 18:20)

His sin is not charged.
THE EFFECTS of it must be dealt with.
No different in Protestantism...

 

[GodsGrace]

By the time mass communication was available the catholics were an old heresy.

You know hopeful, you're going to have to stop calling the CC a heresy unless you can show HOW it is heretical.

Please state how the church is heretical, when it is the CC that saved Christianity from MANY HERESIES.

Maybe you should study the bible along with some of the early councils of the church.
You'd find that many heretical teachings were extinguished by the church.

 

[Hopeful]

I never claimed it did.

Death is the effect of Adam's sin, as you said "Children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves."
So you did claim it did.

Babies still are affected by the sin of Adam. See post #49 which you have failed to answer.

I answered it in Post #51.

 

[GodsGrace]

Death is the effect of Adam's sin, as you said "Children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves."
So you did claim it did.

I answered it in Post #51.

What is the difference between suffering the EFFECT of a sin...
and having SINNED?