WHERE DO CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ORIGINATE? BAPTISM

[Mungo]

Where is "receiving the Holy Spirit through baptism" written?

Where I quoted to you in post #72
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:39)

Those that believe God and Jesus as if they were children are like those in heaven.
Totally trusting and loving without reservation.

That is total evasion from my question

You misinterpreted that.

No I didn't

Nothing is washed away but sin in baptism in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission for sins.

I never said there was. You just keep evading the points I make.

Of course it isn't written anywhere, as none of the original Christians gave a thought to baptizing the sinless.

Another assertion without evidence.

Just the babies and children that kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, and covet with the knowledge that it is sinful to do so.

No. It applies for the reasons I gave in posts #38, #43, #49, #66, #67 and #72

 

[Mungo]

Effects like...death?
That is the only effect written of that passes on through Adam.

No it isn't I gave you reasons in posts #38, #43, #49, #66, #67 and #72

Without conversion, following a true repentance from sin, there would be no baptism administered.

Evading my point again.

As soon as they are old enough to realize the concept of what sin is, and are willing to forgo it for the rest of their lives, as it must be their choice.
It cannot be forced on someone.

Why wait until then to remove the effects of Adam's sin, to bring them into the New Covenant, to make them adopted children of God?

 

[Hopeful]

Where I quoted to you in post #72
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:39)

The gift of the holy Ghost is for a true repentance from past sins.
Cornelius is a prime example.
The Samarians of Acts 8 are a prime example you are incorrect.
How many babies have repented of their past sins?
Zero.

 

[Hopeful]

Why wait until then to remove the effects of Adam's sin, to bring them into the New Covenant, to make them adopted children of God?

They are already children of God as soon as they are born, and will remain so until they commit a sin.

 

[Mungo]

The gift of the holy Ghost is for a true repentance from past sins.

Scripture doesn't say that. It says we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptised.

Cornelius is a prime example.

No he isn't

The Samarians of Acts 8 are a prime example you are incorrect.

No they are not

How many babies have repented of their past sins?
Zero.

They have non to repent of but they still can receive the Ho9ly Spirit when baptised.

 

[Mungo]

They are already children of God as soon as they are born, and will remain so until they commit a sin.

You just made that up.
You have no scripture to support that claim.
Rom 5:18-19 says
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Which part of ¬"all people" does not include infants?

Paul says in Eph 2:3 "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Which part of "like the rest of mankind" does not include infants?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It is also the circumcision done without hands, (Col 2:11), and the death of the old man of sin. (Rom 6:6)
If a baby has not yet started to commit sin, what is there to wash away?
Why "cast off" pure flesh?
Why kill the pure baby so a pure baby can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:4)

Hi there. You wisely referenced Col 2:11, as not many are willing to acknowledge that Holy Scripture. Col 2:13 tells us why a person is considered Spiritually dead, and it is because of assumed sin, but also because the Curse of the Lord has not been cut away, or disassociated from the "heart."

Colossians 2:13 NLT - "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

If a baby has yet to sin, they are still under the Curse that has been applied to all of creation. Creatures that possess the soul, or are soulish, are under the Spiritual Curse of the Sinful Nature that causes evil ambition to flourish for self. Animals began eating each other and humans began killing each other, for example. Jesus is our Redeemer from this Curse, however, the Curse that was cast upon all of physical creation remains, which means that our bodies will indeed perish. Our physical bodies are not Redeemed, but our Spirit is . . . by and through the Holy Hands of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Scripture doesn't say that. It says we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptised.

You omitted the words before that.
"Repent, and be baptized..." (Acts 2:38

No he isn't

Cornelius did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before his water baptism.

No they are not

The Samarians were baptized and didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They have non to repent of but they still can receive the Ho9ly Spirit when baptised.

No, they don't.
If they did, when they grew up they would all be non-sinners like the adults who repent of sin are.

 

[Hopeful]

You just made that up.
You have no scripture to support that claim.
Rom 5:18-19 says
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Which part of ¬"all people" does not include infants?

Paul says in Eph 2:3 "we [Christians] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Which part of "like the rest of mankind" does not include infants?

Sin separates men from God.
It is written..."But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isa 59:2)
If one has yet to sin, there has been no separation.

 

[Hopeful]

Hi there. You wisely referenced Col 2:11, as not many are willing to acknowledge that Holy Scripture. Col 2:13 tells us why a person is considered Spiritually dead, and it is because of assumed sin, but also because the Curse of the Lord has not been cut away, or disassociated from the "heart."

Colossians 2:13 NLT - "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

I don't know why you would use that version of the KJ bible, but it says..."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
It says nothing about a curse.
And, if one has not sinned, they are not dead in sins !

If a baby has yet to sin, they are still under the Curse that has been applied to all of creation. Creatures that possess the soul, or are soulish, are under the Spiritual Curse of the Sinful Nature that causes evil ambition to flourish for self. Animals began eating each other and humans began killing each other, for example. Jesus is our Redeemer from this Curse, however, the Curse that was cast upon all of physical creation remains, which means that our bodies will indeed perish. Our physical bodies are not Redeemed, but our Spirit is . . . by and through the Holy Hands of Christ.

All men die.
That is the curse.
Thankfully, it is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I was paid the wages of my sin, death, (Rom 6:23), when I was crucified with Christ at my water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Are you ready to say babies also enjoy that graceful event?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I don't know why you would use that version of the KJ bible, but it says..."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

The Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit. That's what the Sinful Nature is, and that's why all must receive the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ, so that He might Redeem us from this Curse of the Lord.

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Jesus doesn't Redeem our physical body, but He Redeems our Spirit, separating the Curse from our hearts so that we would be considered Pure, Blameless, and Holy, just as was Abraham, our Father of Faith.

 

[Mungo]

You omitted the words before that.
"Repent, and be baptized..." (Acts 2:38

As I keep saying, infants have no personal sins to repent of. But they still suffer from the effects of Adam's sin.
They still receive the Holy Spirit ij baptism just as peter proclaimed.

Cornelius did receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before his water baptism.

You said he was a good example. No he wasn't

The Samarians were baptized and didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The text doesn't say that.

No, they don't.
If they did, when they grew up they would all be non-sinners like the adults who repent of sin are.

Again you make a claim with no evidence.
You seem to be claiming that once you receive the Holy Spirit you never sin again.
Not true.

 

[Mungo]

Sin separates men from God.
It is written..."But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isa 59:2)
If one has yet to sin, there has been no separation.

Mortal sin (1John 5:16-17) separates men from God.
Lesser sins damage our relationship with God but there is not a separation.

As 1John 5:16-17 says "There is sin which is mortal.......All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal."
or as the KJV puts it "There is a sin unto death........All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death"
Death here is not physical death but spiritual - a total separation from God.

 

[Hopeful]

As I keep saying, infants have no personal sins to repent of. But they still suffer from the effects of Adam's sin.
They still receive the Holy Spirit ij baptism just as peter proclaimed.

As there couldn't be a repentance, their can't be a gift for repenting of sin.

You said he was a good example. No he wasn't

Cornelius and his household received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized, in Acts 10.
Isn't that proof enough for you that baptism doesn't automatically warrant the gift of the Holy Ghost?

The text doesn't say that.

Here is the text..."But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 8:12-16)

Again you make a claim with no evidence.
You seem to be claiming that once you receive the Holy Spirit you never sin again.

Repentance means "turn from, or, "change".
If one is still committing sin, they repented of something besides sin.
I am claiming that if you repent of sin, you don't continue to commit sin.

Not true.

Very true.
The Holy Ghost will not reside in a polluted "temple".

 

[Mungo]

As there couldn't be a repentance, their can't be a gift for repenting of sin.

The gift is not for repenting but is given when a person is baptised and becomes a child of God.

Yes, if a person has sinned there is a need to repent before they come into that relationship with God.

Cornelius and his household received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized, in Acts 10.
Isn't that proof enough for you that baptism doesn't automatically warrant the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Here is the text..."But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 8:12-16)

This is complicated. I'll come back to it in the next post

Repentance means "turn from, or, "change".
If one is still committing sin, they repented of something besides sin.
I am claiming that if you repent of sin, you don't continue to commit sin.

Very true.
The Holy Ghost will not reside in a polluted "temple".

If you think that you repent of sin you will never sin again then you are living in a fantasy world.
That is not biblical and the evidence is all around you.

 

[Mungo]

Cornelius and his household received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized, in Acts 10.
Isn't that proof enough for you that baptism doesn't automatically warrant the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Here is the text..."But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 8:12-16)

There are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray in their book Receiving The Power as ‘the Spirit within’ and ‘the Spirit upon’. These relate to the internal work of the Spirit for salvation - sanctifying gifts, and the external work for ministry - charismatic gifts.

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

When scripture uses the phrase “receive the Holy Spirit” (or similar) it may be using it to refer to either “the Spirit within” or the “Spirit upon”. Some discernment is needed and sometimes the text is not clear. One test is whether there is some manifestation of “the Spirit upon”.

The Spirit Upon
In Acts, Luke seems to use the term exclusively for “the Spirit upon”. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit, in the form of tongues of fire, comes to rest on those in the Upper Room and they all begin to speak in tongues (manifestation) (Acts 2:1-4)

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household and they began to speak in tongues (manifestation). Peter says "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (vs 47) – referring to Pentecost. This is “the Spirit upon”.

In Acts 8 Phillip has been baptizing in Samaria. Peter and John are sent to lay hands on those baptized and prayed for them “that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-17). Though no particular manifestation is reported there clearly was one because Simon the magician wanted to have the same power saying "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." (Vs 19)

The Spirit Within
Paul himself, in his writings, seems to use receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit within” (for character and salvation)
“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:15-16)

“Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.” (1Cor 2:12)

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?” (1Cor 6:19)

We receive the Holy Spirit within at baptism.
In the example of Cornelius they received the Holy Spirit upon and this was evidenced by their speaking in tongues. But they still needed to be baptised to receive the Holy Spirit within.

In Acts 8 as I said above Peter and John prayed over them because the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on any of them. This was the Spirit upon. They had already received the Holy Spirit within at baptism.

 

[Benadam]

1. John 1:33
   And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Baptism by water then is not a man made tradition but a divine Tradition according to Scripture. God commanded it.
To believe Baptism by water is an unnecessary human tradition is not from God.

John 3

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus teaches Nicodemus why



22. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

A few verses down Christ and the disciples are Baptizing.

Scripture testifies that Baptism with water is Divine Tradition. To teach otherwise is putting manmade tradition before the commandments of God.

 

[Hopeful]

The gift is not for repenting but is given when a person is baptised and becomes a child of God.

Yes, if a person has sinned there is a need to repent before they come into that relationship with God.



This is complicated. I'll come back to it in the next post


If you think that you repent of sin you will never sin again then you are living in a fantasy world.
That is not biblical and the evidence is all around you.

You never met a person who quit smoking, or drinking before?
If folks can quit those two addictions they can quit all addictions.
How can a "turn from" be real if it is only temporary?

 

[Hopeful]

There are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray in their book Receiving The Power as ‘the Spirit within’ and ‘the Spirit upon’. These relate to the internal work of the Spirit for salvation - sanctifying gifts, and the external work for ministry - charismatic gifts.

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

When scripture uses the phrase “receive the Holy Spirit” (or similar) it may be using it to refer to either “the Spirit within” or the “Spirit upon”. Some discernment is needed and sometimes the text is not clear. One test is whether there is some manifestation of “the Spirit upon”.

The Spirit Upon
In Acts, Luke seems to use the term exclusively for “the Spirit upon”. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit, in the form of tongues of fire, comes to rest on those in the Upper Room and they all begin to speak in tongues (manifestation) (Acts 2:1-4)

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household and they began to speak in tongues (manifestation). Peter says "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (vs 47) – referring to Pentecost. This is “the Spirit upon”.

In Acts 8 Phillip has been baptizing in Samaria. Peter and John are sent to lay hands on those baptized and prayed for them “that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-17). Though no particular manifestation is reported there clearly was one because Simon the magician wanted to have the same power saying "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." (Vs 19)

The Spirit Within
Paul himself, in his writings, seems to use receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit within” (for character and salvation)
“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:15-16)

“Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.” (1Cor 2:12)

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?” (1Cor 6:19)

We receive the Holy Spirit within at baptism.
In the example of Cornelius they received the Holy Spirit upon and this was evidenced by their speaking in tongues. But they still needed to be baptised to receive the Holy Spirit within.

In Acts 8 as I said above Peter and John prayed over them because the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on any of them. This was the Spirit upon. They had already received the Holy Spirit within at baptism.

What a waste of time reading that was.