WHERE DO CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ORIGINATE? BAPTISM

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,
Please listen. You don't seem to listen...
Without getting too complicated with this matter...
the CC does NOT teach that the sin of the father is imputed to the son.

But they baptize sinless babies in the name of Jesus Christ, (Father, Son, & the Holy Ghost) for the remission of sin...anyway.
Baptizing the sinless is pointless...unless cash is involved.

I've already said this a few times to you --- Protestants believe exactly the same, so why the problem?

Then they are as guilty as others for baptizing the sinless.

You say the soul that sinneth it shall die.

Scripture says it. (Ezec 18:20)

Every soul sinneth in their life.

Jesus, Elijah, Samuel, Enoch etc didn't.

Babies are not baptized because they've commited a sin.
Romans clearly states that because of the sin of one, all shall die - so can we put that idea aside please?
(all means every single person that is born shall die).

if they are not baptized for the remission of sins, what are they baptized for?

Original sin took place at the beginning of the spiritual history of man.
We are MARKED by this sin of the first man, Adam.

That is not true.

Because of Him we have lost the preternatural gifts that had been given to the first human, perfectly
in sync with God's laws. But they broke one, they disobeyed, and thus they lost the original relationship with God and it became damaged.
Romans 5:12-19

The sin of Adam is not a personal sin, but is a sin nonetheless.
Infants are baptized even though they have not committed any sin, the why is explained several times in this thread.
Baptism turns a man back to the original relationship with God.
Whether or not he wishes to accept this will be evident in time as the infant grows older.
God's grace should not be deprived to anyone, even chidlren.

It is nothing but a money making scheme.
A way to increase the number seated in a church without a commitment to God.
And it works !

I was born and raised catholic, but never realized that Godliness was not only attainable, but demanded by God.
The catholic way kept me trapped in a revolving door of confession and sin.
And no way out of the ways of the Jews.
That way was a perpetual sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent loop.
Those in Christ now have the power to cease from sin.
A way to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
Thanks be to God for freedom from sin !!!

 

[Hopeful]

You say the above because of your personal beliefs, which we won't get into.

However, the rest of Christianity does not agree with your understanding of sin,
so I'll leave the above post of yours alone.

Then it isn't Christianity.
His sheep follow His voice.

 

[Hopeful]

His sin is not charged.
THE EFFECTS of it must be dealt with.
No different in Protestantism...

Give me the list of effects I was saved from when I was baptized as a baby.

 

[Hopeful]

You know hopeful, you're going to have to stop calling the CC a heresy unless you can show HOW it is heretical.

Do they continue to commit sin?
A "yes" answer proves they are not of God.

Please state how the church is heretical, when it is the CC that saved Christianity from MANY HERESIES.

Like, living without sin?
They got rid of that one first...I'm sure.

Maybe you should study the bible along with some of the early councils of the church.
You'd find that many heretical teachings were extinguished by the church.

I find that men's councils almost always result in men's wisdom.
Bereft of Godliness, and accommodating to sin.

 

[Hopeful]

What is the difference between suffering the EFFECT of a sin...
and having SINNED?

You will have to ask someone who plies an "effects of someone else's sins" doctrine.
A rich, and clever enough, man can kill his neighbor without suffering any effects at all.
It happens everyday.

 

[Mungo]

Death is the effect of Adam's sin, as you said "Children carry the effects of the sins of their predecessors, not the actual sins themselves."
So you did claim it did.

I answered it in Post #51.

Your post #51 made no attempt to answer the points I made in post #49

Yes, death is an effect of Adam's sin but I never said that baptism reverse that effect.
In post #43 I said:

Baptism is not just for the remission of sin.
As I posted above
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

Where in that did I say that baptism washes away death?
Answer - I didn't.

 

[Mungo]

if they are not baptized for the remission of sins, what are they baptized for?

I gave you a list in post #43

Baptism is much more than just forgiving sins.
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

I can also add to that list - in baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

Why don't you take some notice of what I post?

 

[Walpole]

By the time mass communication was available the catholics were an old heresy.

Facts are stubborn things.

History is an amazing witness and one of the beautiful things about history is the fact that you get multiple perspectives, not only from one side like just a protagonist's view, but also your antagonist's views.

History records from the outset, you've got these Catholics teaching Catholic doctrine, with their bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. You have Romans and Jews complaining about them.

When heretics show up, we have a history of what they believe and their view.

But interesting, history is silent on a group saying, "Wait, hold on...who are these new guys called CATHOLICS???"

 

[Hopeful]

Your post #51 made no attempt to answer the points I made in post #49
Yes, death is an effect of Adam's sin but I never said that baptism reverse that effect.
In post #43 I said:
Where in that did I say that baptism washes away death?
Answer - I didn't.

Your POV is totally unbiblical.
Water baptism is for the remission of one's own past sins, and for the killing of the old man of sin before being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

 

[Hopeful]

I gave you a list in post #43

I can also add to that list - in baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

Why don't you take some notice of what I post?

The gift of the Holy Ghost is from God, and is the reward for a true repentance from sin.
Something babies are incapable of doing.

 

[Hopeful]

Facts are stubborn things.

History is an amazing witness and one of the beautiful things about history is the fact that you get multiple perspectives, not only from one side like just a protagonist's view, but also your antagonist's views.

History records from the outset, you've got these Catholics teaching Catholic doctrine, with their bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. You have Romans and Jews complaining about them.

When heretics show up, we have a history of what they believe and their view.

But interesting, history is silent on a group saying, "Wait, hold on...who are these new guys called CATHOLICS???"

Name one catholic that hasn't committed a sin while being a catholic.
Those who commit sin are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Mungo]

The gift of the Holy Ghost is from God, and is the reward for a true repentance from sin.
Something babies are incapable of doing.

In your opinion.
Baptism was foreshadowed in the OT
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27)

We are promised the Holy Spirit in baptism
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:39)
Children have no sins to replent of so only the second part is applicable to them.
Peter continues "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
So Peter confirms that children will receive the Holy Spirit in baptism,

And, as I pointed out baptism is not just about forgiving sins or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

It is all biblical.

 

[Mungo]

Your POV is totally unbiblical.
Water baptism is for the remission of one's own past sins, and for the killing of the old man of sin before being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Nowhere does scripture say that baptism is ONLY for the forgiveness of sins.
See my previous post(s).

 

[jasonc]

My reformed church does this .I will ask why .

 

[Hopeful]

In your opinion.
Baptism was foreshadowed in the OT
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27)

We are promised the Holy Spirit in baptism
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:39)
Children have no sins to replent of so only the second part is applicable to them.
Peter continues "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
So Peter confirms that children will receive the Holy Spirit in baptism,

Not so.
The promise is to all who were still children at the time Peter spoke.
Your twists make it appear children, and in this case babies, can even determine what is a sin.

And, as I pointed out baptism is not just about forgiving sins or receiving the Holy Spirit.
In baptism we are renewed.
We are made children of God
We are brought into the New Covenant, into the Church, into the body of Christ.
All this is applicable to children.

It is applicable to children who reach the age of accountability.
Not babies.

It is all biblical.

Only in a fun house mirror kind of way.

 

[Hopeful]

Nowhere does scripture say that baptism is ONLY for the forgiveness of sins.
See my previous post(s).

It is also the circumcision done without hands, (Col 2:11), and the death of the old man of sin. (Rom 6:6)
If a baby has not yet started to commit sin, what is there to wash away?
Why "cast off" pure flesh?
Why kill the pure baby so a pure baby can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:4)

 

[Mungo]

Not so.
The promise is to all who were still children at the time Peter spoke.

If you follow that sort of logic then the the forgiveness of sin and receiving the Holy Spirit only applies to the people Peter was speaking to.

Also Peter says the receiving of the Holy Spirit through baptism is for "every one whom the Lord our God calls to him".
Does Jesus not call babies and little children?
Jesus said “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God." (Lk 18:16)
They enter the kingdom of God in baptism (Jn 3:5) and you are trying to stop them.

Your twists make it appear children, and in this case babies, can even determine what is a sin.

I keep pointing out that personal sin is not applicable to babies and infants, but other things are.

It is applicable to children who reach the age of accountability.
Not babies.

Nowhere does scripture say that. You just made it up.

Only in a fun house mirror kind of way.

No, it applies the babies and children in a very real way.

 

[Mungo]

It is also the circumcision done without hands, (Col 2:11), and the death of the old man of sin. (Rom 6:6)
If a baby has not yet started to commit sin, what is there to wash away?

There is no personal sin to wash away but there are effects of Adams sin's to be rectified.

Besides according to your logic it was only those whom Paul and Titus converted that had their sins washed away.

Why "cast off" pure flesh?
Why kill the pure baby so a pure baby can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:4)

Because of all the other effects of Adam's sin that a baby needs to have removed.
Do you not want babes and children to be brought into the New Covenant and become adopted children of God? Why would you deprive them of that?

 

[Hopeful]

If you follow that sort of logic then the the forgiveness of sin and receiving the Holy Spirit only applies to the people Peter was speaking to.

Also Peter says the receiving of the Holy Spirit through baptism is for "every one whom the Lord our God calls to him".

Where is "receiving the Holy Spirit through baptism" written?

Does Jesus not call babies and little children?
Jesus said “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God." (Lk 18:16)

Those that believe God and Jesus as if they were children are like those in heaven.
Totally trusting and loving without reservation.

They enter the kingdom of God in baptism (Jn 3:5) and you are trying to stop them.

You misinterpreted that.

I keep pointing out that personal sin is not applicable to babies and infants, but other things are.

Nothing is washed away but sin in baptism in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission for sins.

Nowhere does scripture say that. You just made it up.

Of course it isn't written anywhere, as none of the original Christians gave a thought to baptizing the sinless.

No, it applies the babies and children in a very real way.

Just the babies and children that kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, and covet with the knowledge that it is sinful to do so.

 

[Hopeful]

There is no personal sin to wash away but there are effects of Adams sin's to be rectified.

Effects like...death?
That is the only effect written of that passes on through Adam.

Besides according to your logic it was only those whom Paul and Titus converted that had their sins washed away.

Without conversion, following a true repentance from sin, there would be no baptism administered.

Because of all the other effects of Adam's sin that a baby needs to have removed.
Do you not want babes and children to be brought into the New Covenant and become adopted children of God? Why would you deprive them of that?

As soon as they are old enough to realize the concept of what sin is, and are willing to forgo it for the rest of their lives, as it must be their choice.
It cannot be forced on someone.