[_ Old Earth _] Where Does the Intelligence Come From?

[Yah1]

Hey everyone, i've been thinking and i have some questions.
If God doesn't exist then,

1. Why the vastness of color on earth, animals, insects and personalities.
2. Why do some people have different talents and skills than others.
3. What are atheist definitions for the seven sins.
4. How did the first thing that ever existed appear, where's the intelligence.
5. Why is the tomb of Jesus empty.

6. If atheists can trace every object or thing on this planet and universe back to its origin, then why can't they find out where the origin came from. Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits. For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function; the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs. How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?

7. If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang, how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable. If something was made out of nothing, then how did 'nothing' know how to calculate the math. If something was made out of something, then how did something know how to appear.

John 6:47

 

[cupid dave]

Hey everyone, i've been thinking and i have some questions.
If God doesn't exist then,

1. Why the vastness of color on earth, animals, insects and personalities.
2. Why do some people have different talents and skills than others.
3. What are atheist definitions for the seven sins.
4. How did the first thing that ever existed appear, where's the intelligence.
5. Why is the tomb of Jesus empty.

6. If atheists can trace every object or thing on this planet and universe back to its origin, then why can't they find out where the origin came from. Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits. For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function; the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs. How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?

7. If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang, how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable. If something was made out of nothing, then how did 'nothing' know how to calculate the math. If something was made out of something, then how did something know how to appear.

John 6:47

Yes, it is ae inspiring to stand back are just wonder at the marvel of the Reality into which we have been introduced at birth.

If we re-live the original shock of that first smack of the butt by a doctor, and hear his voice, screaming out, "I am," we realize that the silence of the womb was misleading and something else besides our self does exist.

"I am," this God makes himself known.
He both threatens us and nurtures us in our initial ignorance as we strive to survive by adapting o the ways he has already established for us to live.

We can not come face-to-face with this master, but must interpret signals from our senses to describe what this other entity is, what he demands, or else, what will elicit his support and nurturing, whether it be a graso away or a cry.
We spend the rest of our life trying to discern the Truth that will save us from the evil he has on the one hand, and the blessings on the other.


Truth becomes the light into the world.
Our salvation depends upon recognizing Truth and abiding in "him."

Truth is the son of this ever unfolding Reality that sires it, and Truth is our savior from evil which leads us into the still waters of contemplation which you query us about.

 

[Barbarian]

Hey everyone, i've been thinking and i have some questions.
If God doesn't exist then,

He does exist.

Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits.

Because He's a Creator, powerful enough to produce a universe in which such wonders evolve.

For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function

Primitive chordates didn't need a liver, since the blood in their skins transferred wastes directly to the water. The hepatic caecum found in some chordates turns out to be the most primitive example of a liver:

[Hepatic caecum of amphioxus and origin of vertebrate liver].
Li HY, Zhang SC.
Department of Marine Biology, Ocean University of China, Qingdao 266003, China. hongyanli@ouc.edu.cn
Abstract

Previous studies on morphology and embryology revealed that the Hatschek's pit, endostyle and hepatic caecum in amphioxus were homologous to the precursors of pituitary, thyroid and liver in vertebrates, respectively. Here, we summarize the recent advances on the relationship between amphioxus hepatic caecum and the vertebrate liver as well as the origin of growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor (GH/IGF) and thyroid hormone/thyroid hormone receptor (TH/THR) signal pathways, which will provide molecular support to the homology of amphioxus hepatic caecum to vertebrate liver.

the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs.

All similarly have antecedents in the early chordates. Would you like to learn about some of them?

How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?

Of course. A God powerful enough to make a universe like this.

If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang

The "big bang" doesn't really explain solar system formations. There are other theories that do, of course. The thing is, science doesn't depend on God, since He made the universe with understandable and consistent laws. Science can neither deny or confirm God. It is limited by its methodology to the physical universe.

how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable.

It's not perfect. In fact it can vary by millions of miles and not produce a notable change.

Earth reaches perihelion (closest to the Sun) on January 3, 2007 (Figure C). The Earth-Sun distance will be 147,093,602 km. Aphelion, the greatest distance from the Sun, occurs on July 7, 2007, when the Earth-Sun distance will be 152,097,053 km.
http://www.space.com/3304-earth-closest-sun-dead-winter.html

So you see a difference of five million kilometers is not even noticable.

There is nothing in nature that rules out God. And if you aren't limited by the scientific method, there is much in nature to show you He is.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I'm not sure if these are questions you are seeking answers to or rhetorical points in defense of creationism. Could you clarify this for me? Thanks.

 

[Yah1]

Science can only prove so much until man starts to wonder, so..i guess i'm seeking answers beyond what science can prove. Yes, i would like to learn more about primitive chordates, ty. Basically, i'm focusing on the intelligence behind things. For example, someone and something are two different things. Doesn't a higher intelligence have to be the force driving things into existence. For example, if my light bulb was burned out i would be the force behind changing the bulb. Well, the light bulb is the universe, but what's the force that drove it into existence. How did it know how to drive itself into existence without some kind of intelligence.

8. Did God not create science to begin with.
9. How did the moon know where to place itself, so it would control the tides.
10. What's the purpose behind Jupiter, why is it so big. Does everything have a purpose.

A doctor can only learn so much until his gifts come into play. Michael Jordan taught himself how to play basketball, but his gifts made him the greatest. That's what i think at least. Do you guys remember this scene in this movie, Good Will Hunting..

Will: Do you play the piano?
Skylar: A bit.
Will: Okay, when you look at a piano you see Mozart, right?
Skylar: I see "Chopsticks".
Will: Beethoven, okay. He looked at a piano, and it just made sense to him. He could just play.
Skylar: So what are you saying? You play the piano?
Will: No, not a lick. I mean, I look at a piano, I see a bunch of keys, three pedals, and a box of wood. But Beethoven, Mozart, they saw it, they could just play. I couldn't paint you a picture, I probably can't hit the ball out of Fenway, and I can't play the piano.
Skylar: But you can do my o-chem paper in under an hour.
Will: Right. Well, I mean when it came to stuff like that... I could always just play.

Did God, science or evolution give Will the gift/knowledge? of math?
I just don't know how a person can live till 90 and still be an atheist.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I'm still not certain if these are genuine questions or rhetoric. I don't mind trying to give answers to them, but if that isn't the purpose then it would not be appropriate.

 

[Yah1]

No, they're genuine. I would like to learn what unbelievers think too.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Ok. I'll start with your original post:

1. Why the vastness of color on earth, animals, insects and personalities.
Color is a product of variations in wavelength within the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation and the capacity of optical receptors and nerves within the occipital lobe to differentiate these variations. Variation in animals is the result of random genetic mutation, environmental pressures that create ecological niches, and competition for limited resources.
2. Why do some people have different talents and skills than others.
Because people are different. They have different genes and different experiences, including opportunities to develop talents and skills.
3. What are atheist definitions for the seven sins.
I think most atheists would understand the seven deadly sins to be examples of antisocial behavior. It wouldn't be thought of in terms of sin, but rather evaluated in light of the potential negative impact they could have on both the individual and those around them.
4. How did the first thing that ever existed appear, where's the intelligence.
Many atheists would not subscribe to the idea that existence is conditioned upon an intelligence. As for how the first thing that ever existed appeared, that question is complicated, since there is more than one frame of reference for what constitutes the "first thing".
5. Why is the tomb of Jesus empty.
Many atheists would not accept the witness of the Bible regarding Jesus resurrection and empty tomb.

6. If atheists can trace every object or thing on this planet and universe back to its origin, then why can't they find out where the origin came from. Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits. For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function; the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs. How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?
It is not clear what you mean by "origin". Barbarian has already offered an explanation for the liver, and atheists would ascribe similar evolutionary paths for the other organs you have mentioned. Evolution does not need to know anything, it is a blind process that produces variation in living organisms. Sand falling to the bottom of an hour glass consistently forms a particular shape, but that doesn't mean the sand planned it that way.

7. If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang, how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable. If something was made out of nothing, then how did 'nothing' know how to calculate the math. If something was made out of something, then how did something know how to appear.
The atheists explanation would be to suggest that you have the causal nature of the phenomena backwards. The sun and moon are not placed at a certain distance in order to make the earth livable, but rather the earth is livable because the sun and moon are at a certain distance from the earth. We are alive because of a chance configuration of celestial bodies, and not the other way around.

 

[The Unbeliever]

You might want to ignore the above post. As I thought about how to best conduct this discussion, it occurred to me that answering your specific questions missed your main point and could just bog the conversation down with distracting secondary issues. In your second post you said,

Basically, i'm focusing on the intelligence behind things. For example, someone and something are two different things. Doesn't a higher intelligence have to be the force driving things into existence.

I think this is really the heart of the matter. Many atheists would simply disagree with you that a higher intelligence is necessary for things to exist. They would instead turn to chance combined with extremely long periods of time as the prime means driving the variation we now see in the universe.

 

[cupid dave]

You might want to ignore the above post. As I thought about how to best conduct this discussion, it occurred to me that answering your specific questions missed your main point and could just bog the conversation down with distracting secondary issues. In your second post you said,

I think this is really the heart of the matter. Many atheists would simply disagree with you that a higher intelligence is necessary for things to exist. They would instead turn to chance combined with extremely long periods of time as the prime means driving the variation we now see in the universe.

"Where Does the Intelligence Come From?"


A serious discussion requires that we first acknowledge that intelligence exists only in livng creatures, reaching is highest potential so far in man.
But in man, we are interested in Conscious Intelligence as opposed to innate intelligence.

Intelligence is measured by how well an organism responds to Reality.
For most organisms, the reactions are metabloical or automatic, merely stimulus/response behaviors.

When we speak of Intelligence in regard to man, we really mean to measure how well people respond to stimuli when they have a choice in the decisions to be made.
We measure this in writtenIntelligence Tests, for instance.

Based upon this definition, a higher intelligence (i.e.; one outside of the human experience) is meaningless.
We have no idea how or what would be making decisions or what choices where to present themselves, nor how to evaluate any measurements we might imply were possible.

What seems to be the case is that men can make choice in life, and their intelligence is a measurement, one that grades them on how well they do in those decisions.

 

[The Unbeliever]

What seems to be the case is that men can make choice in life, and their intelligence is a measurement, one that grades them on how well they do in those decisions.

I think we should be careful even here, though. There are many intelligent people who make bad decisions where less intelligent people do not. Intelligence is a multifaceted concept. Consider the savant who struggles to adapt to unusual social circumstances but can perform almost superhuman feats of calculation. Many other examples of various intelligences are available as well.

Additionally, we should be careful to not automatically acquiesce to our capacity for introspective analysis and assume that our choices are a product of anything like freewill. It is just as possible, and much more in step with our understanding of physics, that the physicochemical processes leading to our decisions are merely veiled from us because we are maladapted to such insights.

 

[Yah1]

Ok. I'll start with your original post:

1. Why the vastness of color on earth, animals, insects and personalities.
Color is a product of variations in wavelength within the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation and the capacity of optical receptors and nerves within the occipital lobe to differentiate these variations. Variation in animals is the result of random genetic mutation, environmental pressures that create ecological niches, and competition for limited resources.
2. Why do some people have different talents and skills than others.
Because people are different. They have different genes and different experiences, including opportunities to develop talents and skills.
3. What are atheist definitions for the seven sins.
I think most atheists would understand the seven deadly sins to be examples of antisocial behavior. It wouldn't be thought of in terms of sin, but rather evaluated in light of the potential negative impact they could have on both the individual and those around them.
4. How did the first thing that ever existed appear, where's the intelligence.
Many atheists would not subscribe to the idea that existence is conditioned upon an intelligence. As for how the first thing that ever existed appeared, that question is complicated, since there is more than one frame of reference for what constitutes the "first thing".
5. Why is the tomb of Jesus empty.
Many atheists would not accept the witness of the Bible regarding Jesus resurrection and empty tomb.

6. If atheists can trace every object or thing on this planet and universe back to its origin, then why can't they find out where the origin came from. Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits. For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function; the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs. How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?
It is not clear what you mean by "origin". Barbarian has already offered an explanation for the liver, and atheists would ascribe similar evolutionary paths for the other organs you have mentioned. Evolution does not need to know anything, it is a blind process that produces variation in living organisms. Sand falling to the bottom of an hour glass consistently forms a particular shape, but that doesn't mean the sand planned it that way.

7. If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang, how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable. If something was made out of nothing, then how did 'nothing' know how to calculate the math. If something was made out of something, then how did something know how to appear.
The atheists explanation would be to suggest that you have the causal nature of the phenomena backwards. The sun and moon are not placed at a certain distance in order to make the earth livable, but rather the earth is livable because the sun and moon are at a certain distance from the earth. We are alive because of a chance configuration of celestial bodies, and not the other way around.

1. If God isn't the master of color, then why all the colors describing heaven in the book of revelation.
2. Yes, culture can influence someone to develop their skills, but not many people can play a piano blind and deaf or write to music.
3. If it's not thought of in terms of sin then, for example 500,000 atheists will not be judged at the throne because they don't believe sin exists. Are we not all human.
4. For example, if matter/energy/motion/cells were the first thing to appear, how did it know to appear without a force behind it.
5. The tomb of Jesus is empty because three days later after he died, he resurrected himself inside the souls of believers..thus having faith and CF.net, and when you get a chance read 1 Corinthians 15
6. The definition of origin is the first stage of existence. The origin of a hat is the fabric, the origin of the fabric is..and so forth. What's the origin of the universe coming into existence? Also, how did a brain know how to create itself without a higher intelligence. How does a brain know how to function, how can you look inside a brain and not think that God was behind that. How the heart chambers work, blood being pumped through our bodies perfectly for us to live. There's just too many little things going on inside the mind and body that help us live..to leave it all to chance.
7. I might of gotten those mixed up but either way..how and why did the universe decide to inhabit ANYTHING without a higher intelligence behind it.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Are you sure you would rather discuss this point by point rather than addressing the central issue? I don't mind doing either, I just anticipate the latter being a more fruitful discussion. But regardless, here are my answers:

1. If God isn't the master of color, then why all the colors describing heaven in the book of revelation.
I don't know if there is a God to be the master of colors, and just because something is written in a book doesn't mean it is true or has any basis in reality.
2. Yes, culture can influence someone to develop their skills, but not many people can play a piano blind and deaf or write to music.
I think that would still involve the genetic and environmental variation I mentioned in my initial response.
3. If it's not thought of in terms of sin then, for example 500,000 atheists will not be judged at the throne because they don't believe sin exists. Are we not all human.
I think you are confusing my answers for what you believe. My answers will probably not fit your worldview very well, especially where your questions touch on points of obvious difference between our perspectives.
4. For example, if matter/energy/motion/cells were the first thing to appear, how did it know to appear without a force behind it.
Things don't need to know to appear in order to appear. Plants don't think about growing, volcanoes don't contemplate the lava they spew. These are impersonal forces.
5. The tomb of Jesus is empty because three days later after he died, he resurrected himself inside the souls of believers..thus having faith and CF.net, and when you get a chance read 1 Corinthians 15
I've read the Bible and am familiar with Paul's writings. I am just not granting credence to the assertions found therein.
6. The definition of origin is the first stage of existence. The origin of a hat is the fabric, the origin of the fabric is..and so forth. What's the origin of the universe coming into existence? Also, how did a brain know how to create itself without a higher intelligence. How does a brain know how to function, how can you look inside a brain and not think that God was behind that. How the heart chambers work, blood being pumped through our bodies perfectly for us to live. There's just too many little things going on inside the mind and body that help us live..to leave it all to chance.
A brain did not create itself, it simply formed, again through impersonal processes. A brain need not know how to function anymore than the wind needs to know how to blow. As for how I can contemplate the mind and not think God was behind it, that is easy. If you do not believe in God, then it is a small thing to cease attributing works to Him. As for the rest of our body and the marvels of their function, the simple answer is of course it words well (though not perfect as you state), if it didn't work well, we wouldn't be alive to complain about it. Finally, we do not know what was before this universe. Even the big bang is a part of our universe (it's rapid initial expansion). But I do not feel too much pressure to answer this since Christians have a God for which no origins account can be made, so we are in the same boat on this count.
7. I might of gotten those mixed up but either way..how and why did the universe decide to inhabit ANYTHING without a higher intelligence behind it.
Again, the universe didn't decide anything. Physics does not need to answer questions of motive when describing how something happened, because the description is of impersonal forces.

 

[Yah1]

Are you sure you would rather discuss this point by point rather than addressing the central issue? I don't mind doing either, I just anticipate the latter being a more fruitful discussion. But regardless, here are my answers:

1. If God isn't the master of color, then why all the colors describing heaven in the book of revelation.
I don't know if there is a God to be the master of colors, and just because something is written in a book doesn't mean it is true or has any basis in reality.
2. Yes, culture can influence someone to develop their skills, but not many people can play a piano blind and deaf or write to music.
I think that would still involve the genetic and environmental variation I mentioned in my initial response.
3. If it's not thought of in terms of sin then, for example 500,000 atheists will not be judged at the throne because they don't believe sin exists. Are we not all human.
I think you are confusing my answers for what you believe. My answers will probably not fit your worldview very well, especially where your questions touch on points of obvious difference between our perspectives.
4. For example, if matter/energy/motion/cells were the first thing to appear, how did it know to appear without a force behind it.
Things don't need to know to appear in order to appear. Plants don't think about growing, volcanoes don't contemplate the lava they spew. These are impersonal forces.
5. The tomb of Jesus is empty because three days later after he died, he resurrected himself inside the souls of believers..thus having faith and CF.net, and when you get a chance read 1 Corinthians 15
I've read the Bible and am familiar with Paul's writings. I am just not granting credence to the assertions found therein.
6. The definition of origin is the first stage of existence. The origin of a hat is the fabric, the origin of the fabric is..and so forth. What's the origin of the universe coming into existence? Also, how did a brain know how to create itself without a higher intelligence. How does a brain know how to function, how can you look inside a brain and not think that God was behind that. How the heart chambers work, blood being pumped through our bodies perfectly for us to live. There's just too many little things going on inside the mind and body that help us live..to leave it all to chance.
A brain did not create itself, it simply formed, again through impersonal processes. A brain need not know how to function anymore than the wind needs to know how to blow. As for how I can contemplate the mind and not think God was behind it, that is easy. If you do not believe in God, then it is a small thing to cease attributing works to Him. As for the rest of our body and the marvels of their function, the simple answer is of course it words well (though not perfect as you state), if it didn't work well, we wouldn't be alive to complain about it. Finally, we do not know what was before this universe. Even the big bang is a part of our universe (it's rapid initial expansion). But I do not feel too much pressure to answer this since Christians have a God for which no origins account can be made, so we are in the same boat on this count.
7. I might of gotten those mixed up but either way..how and why did the universe decide to inhabit ANYTHING without a higher intelligence behind it.
Again, the universe didn't decide anything. Physics does not need to answer questions of motive when describing how something happened, because the description is of impersonal forces.

1. When you've been saved and God shows you his love, the Bible becomes that much more real.
2. If talents are from genetics, then why do only certain members in families have the talents. Why doesn't the whole family have that specific talent.
3. Jesus died on the cross for ALL of humanity, including YOU. What do you think born again christians were before they were saved. They were atheists, muslims, cult leaders etc..the only thing keeping a person from God is sin. Why do you think preachers and worshipers have so much energy to speak and sing the Word of God, because the holy spirit dwells inside of them. Jesus Culture band has been selling out concerts all over the world for some time now.
4. Yeah but how did the plant get there. What's the origin/force behind the plant and volcano existing, what created it? And what created the thing that created the plant and so forth. Things and living things are two different entities. Everything was created by something. They are not impersonal forces if your just thinking about the object, how did the object appear and where did it come from?
5. Because it's up to you to ask God for forgiveness of your sins and come to faith. That's why the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you're not baptized in the holy spirit yet. Being baptized in water is not the same as the holy spirit. You can read the Bible until your eyes water, but if God's Word doesn't pierce your heart then you might as well be reading something else.
6. Your saying christians have a God, as if we're specific people, but like i said in my 3rd answer, ALL of humanity..and it confirms the scripture in Matthew 7:7
7. God created and started the universe and put 'physics' into motion..thus the book of Genesis. But you don't believe this because Ephesians 2:8

You're obviously curious about God or you wouldn't be on a christian forum. The only thing is that i can't PUT faith into you, you have to come to faith on your own. It's a decision that YOU have to make so...what a lot of people do is they make the mistake of mixing religion with love. God is love brother, and i hope one day you find him. Amen.

 

[The Unbeliever]

1. When you've been saved and God shows you his love, the Bible becomes that much more real.
I was saved and yet here I am.
2. If talents are from genetics, then why do only certain members in families have the talents. Why doesn't the whole family have that specific talent.
Because you do not have the same genetic combination as your family members. They also don't have the same environmental conditions (like birth order, etc)
3. Jesus died on the cross for ALL of humanity, including YOU. What do you think born again christians were before they were saved. They were atheists, muslims, cult leaders etc..the only thing keeping a person from God is sin. Why do you think preachers and worshipers have so much energy to speak and sing the Word of God, because the holy spirit dwells inside of them. Jesus Culture band has been selling out concerts all over the world for some time now.
I think the vast majority of Christians were just born into Christian families. As for converts, people convert to and from different beliefs all the time. I am one of them, as I used to be Christian. I don't really see why a band selling out their concerts is pertinent, especially when there are plenty of secular bands who are capable of this as well.
4. Yeah but how did the plant get there. What's the origin/force behind the plant and volcano existing, what created it? And what created the thing that created the plant and so forth. Things and living things are two different entities. Everything was created by something. They are not impersonal forces if your just thinking about the object, how did the object appear and where did it come from?
An atheist would say no one created it, it formed through natural processes and chance. As for how objects appear, nothing just appears except perhaps at the beginning, and even that is uncertain since we lack information.
5. Because it's up to you to ask God for forgiveness of your sins and come to faith. That's why the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you're not baptized in the holy spirit yet. Being baptized in water is not the same as the holy spirit. You can read the Bible until your eyes water, but if God's Word doesn't pierce your heart then you might as well be reading something else.
I have done all of that as well.
6. Your saying christians have a God, as if we're specific people, but like i said in my 3rd answer, ALL of humanity..and it confirms the scripture in Matthew 7:7
But not all of humanity accepts the veracity of your book.
7. God created and started the universe and put 'physics' into motion..thus the book of Genesis. But you don't believe this because Ephesians 2:8
I don't believe it because I ceased believing in God.

You're obviously curious about God or you wouldn't be on a christian forum. The only thing is that i can't PUT faith into you, you have to come to faith on your own. It's a decision that YOU have to make so...what a lot of people do is they make the mistake of mixing religion with love. God is love brother, and i hope one day you find him. Amen.
Actually, I have other reasons for being here than curiosity about God. And I don't think people can "decide" what they believe. I can't decide to believe the sky isn't blue, nor can I decide to believe in God. It is either real to me or it isn't.

 

[cupid dave]

I think this is really the heart of the matter.
Many atheists would simply disagree with you that a higher intelligence is necessary for things to exist.
They would instead turn to chance combined with extremely long periods of time as the prime means driving the variation we now see in the universe.

Your reasoning is illogical.

Man uses his "higher intelligence to realize Cause and Effect is necessary for things to exist."

It does not logically follow that something intelligent itself had to exist.
It does not follow that anything more than a Cause had to exist in order for its Effect to follow.

It does seem to infer that the First Cause would be unique, in that it, itself, pre-existed the without a Cause.
This intelligently could be defined as The Creator Cause.

Intelligence in man can then see how everything thereafter was merely a consequence of the previous conditions.

 

[cupid dave]

1) I think we should be careful even here, though. There are many intelligent people who make bad decisions where less intelligent people do not. Intelligence is a multifaceted concept. Consider the savant who struggles to adapt to unusual social circumstances but can perform almost superhuman feats of calculation. Many other examples of various intelligences are available as well.

2) Additionally, we should be careful to not automatically acquiesce to our capacity for introspective analysis and assume that our choices are a product of anything like freewill. It is just as possible, and much more in step with our understanding of physics, that the physicochemical processes leading to our decisions are merely veiled from us because we are maladapted to such insights.

1) Intelligence Qoutions measure relative intelligence, and make the differentiations between Savants and other classifications of IQ.
Making a correct decision is possible for everyone.

The idea of measuring how many correct decisions one makes and comparing that data against the same thing measured for many others is what an IQ Test does.


2) In the 17th century, the Scientific Method was proposed as a way to establish Facts about Reality which everyone could agree upon as being True.

This amazing idea has brought us to this Age when we have collected millions of Facts as if each one is a small piece of the large puzzle concerning the mysterious and almighty Reality that has trapped us for life and yet nurtures and cares for us.
We have been using these Facts to build up an impression about what this entity, Reality, actually is. We discard ideas as we discover that they lead to contradictions with other facts we have established.

So, at any moment in time, we have a world view of Reality which is supported by Facts, while admittedly, open to adjustments as other facts are added to our knowledge or contradicitions by Facts change that picture in our mind.

We have no facts which suggest that this approach has a veil between us and the Reality we are uncovering. On the contrary, we seem to now know Reality in such a dependable way that we can even stand onthe Moon.

What facts do we have to question why we ought not believe that we have the power to image Reality inside our mind and call that image Truth?

None.

 

[Yah1]

1. When you've been saved and God shows you his love, the Bible becomes that much more real.
I was saved and yet here I am.
2. If talents are from genetics, then why do only certain members in families have the talents. Why doesn't the whole family have that specific talent.
Because you do not have the same genetic combination as your family members. They also don't have the same environmental conditions (like birth order, etc)
3. Jesus died on the cross for ALL of humanity, including YOU. What do you think born again christians were before they were saved. They were atheists, muslims, cult leaders etc..the only thing keeping a person from God is sin. Why do you think preachers and worshipers have so much energy to speak and sing the Word of God, because the holy spirit dwells inside of them. Jesus Culture band has been selling out concerts all over the world for some time now.
I think the vast majority of Christians were just born into Christian families. As for converts, people convert to and from different beliefs all the time. I am one of them, as I used to be Christian. I don't really see why a band selling out their concerts is pertinent, especially when there are plenty of secular bands who are capable of this as well.
4. Yeah but how did the plant get there. What's the origin/force behind the plant and volcano existing, what created it? And what created the thing that created the plant and so forth. Things and living things are two different entities. Everything was created by something. They are not impersonal forces if your just thinking about the object, how did the object appear and where did it come from?
An atheist would say no one created it, it formed through natural processes and chance. As for how objects appear, nothing just appears except perhaps at the beginning, and even that is uncertain since we lack information.
5. Because it's up to you to ask God for forgiveness of your sins and come to faith. That's why the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you're not baptized in the holy spirit yet. Being baptized in water is not the same as the holy spirit. You can read the Bible until your eyes water, but if God's Word doesn't pierce your heart then you might as well be reading something else.
I have done all of that as well.
6. Your saying christians have a God, as if we're specific people, but like i said in my 3rd answer, ALL of humanity..and it confirms the scripture in Matthew 7:7
But not all of humanity accepts the veracity of your book.
7. God created and started the universe and put 'physics' into motion..thus the book of Genesis. But you don't believe this because Ephesians 2:8
I don't believe it because I ceased believing in God.

You're obviously curious about God or you wouldn't be on a christian forum. The only thing is that i can't PUT faith into you, you have to come to faith on your own. It's a decision that YOU have to make so...what a lot of people do is they make the mistake of mixing religion with love. God is love brother, and i hope one day you find him. Amen.
Actually, I have other reasons for being here than curiosity about God. And I don't think people can "decide" what they believe. I can't decide to believe the sky isn't blue, nor can I decide to believe in God. It is either real to me or it isn't.

1. How can you be saved when you don't even believe in God.
3. You USED to be a christian? Once you're saved, you don't get unsaved. It doesn't work that way.
5. No, you haven't done that all as well. You've made that obvious.
6. Thus having FAITH.
7. You say that you were saved and that you were baptized in the Holy Spirit, but you don't believe in God? Wow.
8. Thus having FAITH, and yes you can decide. Everybody has a choice.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Your reasoning is illogical.

Man uses his "higher intelligence to realize Cause and Effect is necessary for things to exist."

It does not logically follow that something intelligent itself had to exist.
It does not follow that anything more than a Cause had to exist in order for its Effect to follow.

It does seem to infer that the First Cause would be unique, in that it, itself, pre-existed the without a Cause.
This intelligently could be defined as The Creator Cause.

Intelligence in man can then see how everything thereafter was merely a consequence of the previous conditions.

What was my illogical reasoning? Sorry, I missed what it was you were criticizing. As for a first cause, I do not see how the idea of cause and effect necessitates it. You could just as easily have an infinite series or say that the first effect was unique in that it had no cause. There is no logical reason to choose one of these options over another.

 

[The Unbeliever]

1) Intelligence Qoutions measure relative intelligence, and make the differentiations between Savants and other classifications of IQ.
Making a correct decision is possible for everyone.
I'll need you to interpret that sentence for me. I couldn't follow the grammar.

The idea of measuring how many correct decisions one makes and comparing that data against the same thing measured for many others is what an IQ Test does.
I don't mind admitting that IQ tests are not sufficient to accurately test the full spectrum of intelligence.

2) In the 17th century, the Scientific Method was proposed as a way to establish Facts about Reality which everyone could agree upon as being True.

This amazing idea has brought us to this Age when we have collected millions of Facts as if each one is a small piece of the large puzzle concerning the mysterious and almighty Reality that has trapped us for life and yet nurtures and cares for us.
We have been using these Facts to build up an impression about what this entity, Reality, actually is. We discard ideas as we discover that they lead to contradictions with other facts we have established.

So, at any moment in time, we have a world view of Reality which is supported by Facts, while admittedly, open to adjustments as other facts are added to our knowledge or contradicitions by Facts change that picture in our mind.

We have no facts which suggest that this approach has a veil between us and the Reality we are uncovering. On the contrary, we seem to now know Reality in such a dependable way that we can even stand onthe Moon.

What facts do we have to question why we ought not believe that we have the power to image Reality inside our mind and call that image Truth?

None.

Sorry, I couldn't follow that either.