[_ Old Earth _] Where Does the Intelligence Come From?

[cupid dave]

3) Well, since I don't believe in the Garden of Eden, I don't hold much relevance to this claim.

Yes, we need to learn to learn and accept the consequences of "our" actions in my opinion.

2) I don't believe all of man is responsible for the acts of 2 in the Eden story. Also, man being able to Imagine this "Natural Force" or God doesn't convince me of the Christian God's existance.


1) If there is a god, then I believe it is way outside our understanding and nothing like the god(s) of the Jews, Islam, Christiantiy, Hinus, etc.

1) I agree that the way these religious people explain scripture, in these various denominations, is archaic and misleading, vague and fill of surrealistic addends that create surrealistic irrational fantasy worlds they describe as heaven and salvation, and faith, etc.

But they are allunited in their same opposition to immorality, now rather taken for granted in regard to stealing, lying, murdering, etc.
What is still a common belief all these people have gleaned from the Jewish/Muslim scriptures concerns Secual excesses and promiscuous behavior.

This is the one belief which all have acquired and which is still not repressed as those more obvious commandments that most all nations recognize and repress.


2) If you understand the story as a description of the nature of the first man who appeared through evolution, and see that Gen 2 and 3 concerns the thinking of this new creature suddenly walking the earth, you might appreciate the idea that the sinful nature of this first human is and has been passed on genetically to every generation including us.
You might be more able to sympathize with arguments that contend Eden is that inner world of thinking which is unique to man, Consciousness, and the "garden" is a fenced off place in that inner world where man alone has the free will to make his own selfish decisions, that often adversely affect others.


3) "Believe?"
The story is a parable or allegory intended to explain what is basically wrong with humans, as a species, and what is the one thing that can save them from themselves.

We know now that men are born self centered and selish according to Jean Piaget, and that the Economic reality is that Selfishness is the driving force behind feeding and clothing ourselves, as we all fight anmong ourselves for survival.
Adam Smith and Ayn Rand tell us that this Selfishness is the proper basis for our relationships and they certify Selfishness as a cultural imperative.


This is all opposed by the idea of Charity set forth by Christ as the saving grace for mankind who will face the Final White Throne Judgemant Day described in Matt 25.

 

[chessman]

... can perform almost superhuman feats of calculation. Many other examples of various intelligences are available as well. .

1. "superhuman" What is an example of a superhuman? Savants are human, not superhuman.

2. Why don't we ask another super-species where they think our (modern human) intelligence comes from? Let’s ask another species. My point is, if Neo-Darwinian Evolution were true, wouldn’t you expect there to be other species with equal, if not more advanced, intelligence than modern humans. It seems to me, based on the data, that Neanderthal’s didn’t have anything close to our cognitive abilities. Which begs the question of, where did it come from then? i.e. this Thread topic.

3. Above average intelligence is just that, above the average. 50% of people you meet have above average intelligence. I’ve never met one or read of one that was “superhuman†other than Christ and His abilities demonstrated through His prophecies.

4. “A brain did not create itself, it simply formedâ€... I assume you mean the human brain/intelligence (the topic of this thread) “simply†formed from Neanderthal populations that were pressured by natural struggles (food sources, Temperatures, etc.) to change over time ever so slightly into modern human cognitively intelligent populations. This happened just a few 10’s of thousands years ago into the intelligence we have today. It seems awfully suspicious or unique that we (modern humans) are the only species around contemplating these questions. Seems like there should be lots of other animal populations or examples of very similar species struggling to survive and struggling with these same questions. Is there another forum or weblink that you can point me to, to Neanderthal discussions on this subject?

 

[cupid dave]

4. “A brain did not create itself, it simply formed”... I assume you mean the human brain/intelligence (the topic of this thread) “simply” formed from Neanderthal populations that were pressured by natural struggles (food sources, Temperatures, etc.) to change over time ever so slightly into modern human cognitively intelligent populations. This happened just a few 10’s of thousands years ago into the intelligence we have today. It seems awfully suspicious or unique that we (modern humans) are the only species around contemplating these questions. Seems like there should be lots of other animal populations or examples of very similar species struggling to survive and struggling with these same questions. Is there another forum or weblink that you can point me to, to Neanderthal discussions on this subject?

What we can observe is the gradual advancements in the tools that man has made.

Since evolution requires that all species adapt to their environment o rface extinction, it seems clear rhat the developmet of various tools useful to such a goal places a prmium on creativity and hence, intelleigence.

Loking back today to the advent of the first Modern Homo sapiens of 150,000 years ago, the seven major Ages starting with the Stone Age give us a rather broad over view of this intelligence that developed over time.

Cognition is dependent upon the expansion of Consciousness and Ego as men came to focus more on the external woeld as the almighty which held the fate of both life and deaqth. Reality could be seen as a companion to man's existence, one that both nurtured him and threaten the evils of correcting his violations against the facts of life:


Isa 45:7

I,(almighty Reality), form the light, and create darkness:

I,(both Friend and Foe of the living), make peace, and create (theenvironment for possible great misfortune), evil:

I,(both Friend and Foe to life and man), the LORD, (of the living), doall these things, (naturally, through the environmental forces).

 

[chessman]

What we can observe is the gradual advancements in the tools that man has made.

True, but do we see gradual DNA advancement in genetics or degradation? Isn't toolmaking skills the result of education more than changing DNA over time due to pressures and NS? Plus the DNA has to be there to "house" the education.

Did the education and learned skills "pressure" the DNA (changing) or did the DNA allow for the learned skills? I don't see any naturalistic mechanism whatsoever to pass tool skills into the DNA of the next generation, pressured or not. And on naturalism, that's all there is. I get that only the best toolmakers survive. But you seem to suggest early modern human's DNA has advanced (at least in its proteins that produce brains), when in fact only our education and skills have advanced, to my knowledge. Clone DNA from the earliest modern human you can find (not Neanderthal, and i thought about 100,000 ya not 150,000 but "whatever") and then give him a proper education and i bet you could raise a Rhodes Scholar. In fact one potentially more healthy than us as his DNA would have less harmful mutations. Right?


QUOTE=cupid dave;761421]
Since evolution requires that all species adapt to their environment .[/QUOTE]
Genetically (materially) adapt, not intellectually! Right?

QUOTE=cupid dave;761421]
Loking back today to the advent of the first Modern Homo sapiens of 150,000 years ago, the seven major Ages starting with the Stone Age give us a rather broad over view of this intelligence that developed over time..[/QUOTE]

Actually, it seems we have a minor/limited view of the artifacts they left that survived but almost nothing of their intelligence. Maybe they didn't like plastic bottles and preferred paper cups.

 

[chessman]

I tried to us multiple quotes from cupid dave using my phone but didn't work. Maybe i could learn how, thus changing my DNA, and then survive to pass that along to my offspring.

 

[cupid dave]

True, but do we see gradual DNA advancement in genetics or degradation? Isn't toolmaking skills the result of education more than changing DNA over time due to pressures and NS? Plus the DNA has to be there to "house" the education.

Did the education and learned skills "pressure" the DNA (changing) or did the DNA allow for the learned skills? I don't see any naturalistic mechanism whatsoever to pass tool skills into the DNA of the next generation, pressured or not. And on naturalism, that's all there is. I get that only the best toolmakers survive. But you seem to suggest early modern human's DNA has advanced (at least in its proteins that produce brains), when in fact only our education and skills have advanced, to my knowledge. Clone DNA from the earliest modern human you can find (not Neanderthal, and i thought about 100,000 ya not 150,000 but "whatever") and then give him a proper education and i bet you could raise a Rhodes Scholar. In fact one potentially more healthy than us as his DNA would have less harmful mutations. Right?


QUOTE=cupid dave;761421]
Since evolution requires that all species adapt to their environment .

Genetically (materially) adapt, not intellectually! Right?

QUOTE=cupid dave;761421]
Loking back today to the advent of the first Modern Homo sapiens of 150,000 years ago, the seven major Ages starting with the Stone Age give us a rather broad over view of this intelligence that developed over time..[/QUOTE]

Actually, it seems we have a minor/limited view of the artifacts they left that survived but almost nothing of their intelligence. Maybe they didn't like plastic bottles and preferred paper cups.[/QUOTE]


We need to define Intelligence if we are to get on the same wave length, here.

Intelligence is the ability to solve problems.
We measure intelligence by the number of correct answers we get on a formal test of one sort or another.
Right?

I like you thought concerning the probable result if we had the test case wherein a 100,000 year old cave man was discovered and then incorporated into our society.
Would he show a lower degree of intelligence after having been enculturated?
Or, would his kids seem on par, in IQ, if he had a wife to bear a new born?

There is evidence that he would probably not be up to speed with us, as we could infer from the recent work on the Unconscious mind.
We do not seem to be alone in our Consciousness, but accompanied by a personal friend who has been largely silent and in most cases even ignored or denied as a part of our mental facility.
This Unconscious mind apparently has a great influence on our decisions and conscious thinking.
More important, our individual Unconscious apparently is in contact with that of others, in a Collective Unconsciousness.
This shepard over humanity seems reasonable speaking, to have had the ability to retain vast experiential knowledge and hence intelligence well beyond what it would have had back 150,000 years ago, just de facto of more experiences.

 

[cupid dave]

I tried to us multiple quotes from cupid dave using my phone but didn't work. Maybe i could learn how, thus changing my DNA, and then survive to pass that along to my offspring.

Hahahaaaaaa...

You may think that went unnoticed, but you personal relationship with your unconscious mind saw everything...




The unconscious mind… it is a gift ofevolution that is crucial to our survival as a species. Conscious thought is agreat aid in designing a car or deciphering the mathematical laws of nature,but for avoiding snake bites or cars that swerve into your path or people whomay mean to harm you, only the speed and efficiency of the unconscious can saveyou. As we’ll see, to ensure our smooth functioning in both the physical andthe social world, nature has dictated that many processes of perception,memory, attention, learning, and judgment are delegated to brain structuresoutside conscious awareness.



Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior

Random House, Inc.

Book Description

Publication Date: April 24, 2012

Leonard Mlodinow, the best-selling author of The Drunkard’sWalk and coauthor of The Grand Design (with Stephen Hawking), gives us astartling and eye-opening examination of how the unconscious mind shapes ourexperience of the world and how, for instance, we often misperceive ourrelationships with family, friends, and business associates, misunderstand thereasons for our investment decisions, and misremember important events.

 

[chessman]

We need to define Intelligence if we are to get on the same wave length, here.

Intelligence is the ability to solve problems.
We measure intelligence by the number of correct answers we get on a formal test of one sort or another. Right?

I'm good with that definition for Intelligence Quotient (IQ, measure) and to some extent with the original thread topic "intelligence". I believe by dropping the "formal" and the "measure" you pretty much get back to the original topic. Intelligence, to me, is more like our common sense, ability to educate ourselves, build better tools, enjoy art, contemplate the future and purpose, etc. Only some of which seem to help us survive harsh temperatures and find food sources, by the way.

I like you thought concerning the probable result if we had the test case wherein a 100,000 year old cave man was discovered and then incorporated into our society.

Would he show a lower degree of intelligence after having been enculturated?
Or, would his kids seem on par, in IQ, if he had a wife to bear a new born?

On par, I think. The subtle shift from "intelligence" to "IQ" might be important to my original point. But then again, maybe not. A great experiment, though (I’m not sure of the ethics or legality), would be to clone an early modern human’s DNA (~100.000 ya) and a 2013 person’s DNA. Put them in the same womb (twins) and just see what happens. I honestly believe, as a non-biologist, that you’d pretty much wind up with typical sibling differences. Which was my original point, not if we found an "adult" early human alive today. After all, we do have Alabama graduates, even today

There is evidence that he would probably not be up to speed with us, as we could infer from the recent work on the Unconscious mind.

Sounds like you know of evidence typical of the above experiment with results that demonstrate intelligence evolution. Do you? Can you point it out to me, please?

This Unconscious mind apparently has a great influence on our decisions and conscious thinking.

Yep, like heartbeat, breathing, all the way up to dreams, and I’m sure more things than we even know of, etc. But I fail to see how unconscious “evolving intelligence” has a demonstrated materialistic pathway into DNA replication into the next generation any more than conscious intelligence evolution does. Do you?

This shepard over humanity seems reasonable speaking, to have had the ability to retain vast experiential knowledge and hence intelligence well beyond what it would have had back 150,000 years ago, just de facto of more experiences.

Hum, so you are open to Intelligent Design as the creator? Maybe intelligence with super-vast knowledge, from another universe that can interact with us via our unconscious minds (Holy Spirit), conscious minds (language, the Word) and even materially (Jesus). Me too. I pray to Him daily. I just think it took such as this Creator to create life from non-life, to create uni-cell life to multi-cell, from multi-cell to plants, from plants to fish, from fish to animals and from even our closets animal "cousins" to modern humans. Neanderthal (maybe) materialistically seems to resemble modern humans the most (as in the very, very similar material DNA were used to create our material self), but not our immaterial self since there’s nothing even close to us in that respect. Ironically however, to your suggestion of some type of “intelligence evolution”, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support it, Biblically or Scientifically. The evidence is Neanderthal were more like monkeys/animals/primates in their intelligence than modern humans, yet they were (or almost were) congruent with us historically/archeologically speaking.
Sure, they had some impressive skills and instincts. But for art, God, Love for others and other species, even tool making, etc. Come on.
I don’t see any evidence to the intelligence (conscious) or the unconscious (one might say even spiritual) abilities we have as modern humans. And I’ve looked.

 

[chessman]

Hahahaaaaaa...

You may think that went unnoticed, but you personal relationship with your unconscious mind saw everything...

Yes, so did my concious mind. But I don't think my DNA changed, do you?

Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior [/FONT][/SIZE]

Random House, Inc.

Book Description

Publication Date: April 24, 2012

Does it explain where intelligence comes from in modern humans by totally materialistic means?

 

[cupid dave]

Yep, like heartbeat, breathing, all the way up to dreams, and I’m sure more things than we even know of, etc. But I fail to see how unconscious “evolving intelligence†has a demonstrated materialistic pathway into DNA replication into the next generation any more than conscious intelligence evolution does. Do you?

Yeah.
I thinkI do see evidence that our life experiences are engraved into our DNA and some are retained as memory that can reappear in the future generation as part of the Unconscious apparatus at work.

Instincts illustrate this.
Instincts are ideas, fears, and sublty warnings and metabolic reactions to environmental situations which could only have been experienced by life experiences of the past.

 

[cupid dave]

Yes, so did my conscious mind. But I don't think my DNA changed, do you?



Does it explain where intelligence comes from in modern humans by totally materialistic means?

The book offers evidence that supports the contention that the mind has a dozen Cortex Functional Areas that work together, though they "think" independently from one another.
Each of these twelve pieces of information about the external world reaches these 12 cortex centers through the 12 pairs of Cranial nerves.
Together, they have have experienced the same things, so one has gained insight about the others.

As a whole they comprise an intelligent "comprehension" of reality that has shown to be be true.

hencem Truth has become a memory resouce.
Intelligence is reaching the Truth, whether in a test or otherwise.

 

[chessman]

Yeah.

I think I do see evidence that our life experiences are engraved into our DNA ...

I mean this seriously. Can you point out a scientific research paper or Journal Nature article on genetics or discovery announcement or anything on this? I don't think the book you mentioned really get's into this. It's very interesting that this is occurring in our DNA. I knew we had synapses and neuronal functions in the brain that recorded memories (conscious and unconscious), but my actual DNA and it’s chromosomes that I pass to my offspring is changing due to my mental experiences. Wow. Now there’s good evidence for evolution. Odd though, isn't my DNA the same when I’m born as it is when I’m 40, else how do they perform DNA matching?

 

[Arch Angle]

That is the question aint it?

I think it comes from processing data that is stored in particle states. But I don't know.

It is actually one of my pieces of evidence I use for believing in god. weare a sub set within a larger set, We feel that "relationship" as"a god"

 

[cupid dave]

That is the question aint it?

I think it comes from processing data that is stored in particle states. But I don't know.

It is actually one of my pieces of evidence I use for believing in god. weare a sub set within a larger set, We feel that "relationship" as"a god"

You are right that we have a relationship with god in the kingdom within us, our mental "heaven" which is like a "garden" fenced off from the external Reality, and it is a place of pleasure often invaded by pain originatiating external to it.

I believe that describes the same metaphor used in genesis:



Gen. 2:15 And LORD God, (Father Nature), took the man, and put him into (a special category of living things), and put him into the garden , (a fenced of place), of "Eden," (a mental place of pleasure: [eden]), to “dress it” (with an on-going evolving education), and to keep it, (genetically reproducing it, and enlarging its capacity).

 

[cupid dave]

[FONT=Tahoma

]I mean this seriously.
Can you point out a scientific research paper or Journal Nature article on genetics or discovery announcement or anything on this?

I don't think the book you mentioned really get's into this.
It's very interesting that this is occurring in our DNA.
I knew we had synapses and neuronal functions in the brain that recorded memories (conscious and unconscious), but my actual DNA and it’s chromosomes that I pass to my offspring is changing due to my mental experiences. Wow.?[/FONT]

Yeah...

We observe that information we take in, in this life exoperience, does get impressed into or upon our mind since Instincts form which could only be developed because as a species, we "remember" environmental ocurrences from those life interactions.

You may be pushing the envelop to with hold any confidence in this idea, that our Unconscious mind does re-create memories by using DNA alterations that construct them.

We may not YET have that information.

And, alternatively, you hypothesis that this connected to a genetic origi could be wrong, too.
We may have to play around with any number of ways and reasons that these things in our species' past become known to us almost before we are born.
Carl Jung, for instance, had this observation:

Carl Jung:



The Collective Unconscious is a storehouse of all theexperiences of humankind, transmitted (genetically encoded, we now realizetoday), to each individual.

As the repository for all past experiences, it includeseven our pre-human animal ancestry.

(Assumably through the genetic processes, though unknownto Freud and Jung at the time.)



It becomes the primary base of a person's psyche, directingand influencing behavior.

It is the deepest and most inaccessible level of thepsyche.



Jung believed that a person accumulates and files all ofhis past experiences, so does humankind, collectively.





Jung was supported by Freud in that Freud predicted oureventual discovery of what he called "Phylogenetic Memory."

Jung said, "theform of the world into which a person is born is already inborn in him, as avirtual image." (Jung, 1953, pg 188).



An example of the meaning of this was suggested in thatan infant is born predisposed to perceive the mother in a certain manner.

Assuming that she behaves as we have generallyconsidered mothers should behave, then the babies predisposition willcorrespond with his reality.

The form of an infant's world, "inborn withinhim" thus determines how he adapts and reacts to his world."

 

[chessman]

Yeah...

We observe that information we take in, in this life exoperience, does get impressed into or upon our mind
...
We may not YET have that information.
...
We may have to play around with any number of ways and reasons that these things in our species' past become known to us almost before we are born.
Carl Jung, for instance, had this observation:
...

I meant biological (material) evidence not speculation on what might be a future discovery. Especially since we do know what chromosomes get past to our offspring now.

 

[Barbarian]

It's conceivably possible that experience might be somehow inherited. But in the absence of any evidence, it's just wishful thinking.

 

[cupid dave]

I meant biological (material) evidence not speculation on what might be a future discovery. Especially since we do know what chromosomes get past to our offspring now.

You ask for research to produce genetic evidence for this growth of knowledge which become assessible to us when we are born again.
Yet we do not yet know how the genetic code reconstructs the knowledge we know we have inborn.

How are instincts incorporated into the brain?
And, are not instincts themselves, some former learning that took place only after we were born and experienced certain interaction with the Reality that awaits us all?

 

[cupid dave]

It's conceivably possible that experience might be somehow inherited. But in the absence of any evidence, it's just wishful thinking.

You guys are saying "In the absence of scientific explanation it is wishful thinking."

But Instinct tell us that something is teaching us things about the real world before we arrive at birth into it.

 

[chessman]

You guys are saying "In the absence of scientific explanation it is wishful thinking."

But Instinct tell us that something is teaching us things about the real world before we arrive at birth into it.

My instinct was the 49's would win the superbowl

Also, we don't "arrive at birth". We "arrive" at conception (Biblically and scientifically). Funny how truth meshes both.