[_ Old Earth _] Where Does the Intelligence Come From?

[The Unbeliever]

1. How can you be saved when you don't even believe in God.
I used to believe in God.
3. You USED to be a christian? Once you're saved, you don't get unsaved. It doesn't work that way.
I am aware of that theological position. I suppose if there is a God, and He does operate that way, I shall be grateful when the end comes since I am confident that my past faith was genuine.
5. No, you haven't done that all as well. You've made that obvious.
Sorry, but you don't know me. I did ask God for forgiveness of my sins and placed my faith in Jesus Christ. I spoke in tongues and sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life. Thus I am confident that I can say that I have done all of that as well.
6. Thus having FAITH.
I had faith.
7. You say that you were saved and that you were baptized in the Holy Spirit, but you don't believe in God? Wow.
Why should you be amazed? It is the truth.
8. Thus having FAITH, and yes you can decide. Everybody has a choice.
No, believing or not believing something is not a choice we make. Can you believe with sincerity that your hand is a snake? Perhaps you can, but that is not something I can just make myself believe. I did not choose to disbelieve in God, nor can I choose to believe in Him again.

 

[Yah1]

If you're baptized in the Holy Spirit and placed your faith in Jesus, then what God are you following?
.

 

[Classik]

Good thread

 

[Milk-Drops]

Hey everyone, i've been thinking and i have some questions.
If God doesn't exist then,
1. Why the vastness of color on earth, animals, insects and personalities.

If God exists, or he doesn't color is different frequencies of light, and we humans are able to perceive these frequencies. Animals, fungus, bacteria, plants, archea, and fungus came into existence through competition with each other and the variations of adaptation. This is just what we have learned from science so far. Its fascinating.

2. Why do some people have different talents and skills than others.

A combination of things. Genetics, epigenetics, environment, level of drive, discipline, and personality.

3. What are atheist definitions for the seven sins.

The only thing that defines an atheist is whether they believe in a god or gods. So to ask what Atheist's ideas of sins are is like asking what is white people's favorite food. There is not definitive answer, its based on what particular philosophy the person believes and whether or not they then believe in a concept of sin. Are we talking about Nihilist? Objectivists? Realists? Skeptics? Rationalists? Ralians? Its going to differ depending on what type of atheist you talk to.

4. How did the first thing that ever existed appear, where's the intelligence.

I don't know, but there are a few hypothesis kicking around and a theory based on rigorous testing, Math, and chemistry that has an idea of the possible formation of life. I actually then have to ask you what you mean by intelligence. When I refer to intelligence, I think of the measurement of cognitive reasoning and ability to learn and adapt.

5. Why is the tomb of Jesus empty.[/'quote] I don't know. For a number of reasons. Are we sure we have the right tomb? Did the Biblical Jesus exist? Did he rise from the grave? This question is a very deep question and requires a lot of other questions to be answered or accepted first in order to fully explain a person's point of view. Since we haven't done that, I'll just state I don't know.

6. If atheists can trace every object or thing on this planet and universe back to its origin, then why can't they find out where the origin came from.

I think yo mean Scientists. Mainly because there isn't just 2 world views or groups that have come up with explanations or have study into this. Many, but not all, atheists accept modern finding of science and take time to learn about it. Science is an ongoing process, it never completes because there is far more to learn then we can ever conceive. So figuring out the origin of life is still being studied and tested because its a complex issue and its harder to figure out how something came to be then its is to study the formation post being.

Another is the complexity of the human body and mind, how everything fits. For example, we can't live without a liver, so how did the liver know where to place itself and to know its function; the complexity of the brain, heart chambers and lungs. How did evolution know how to form the human body. Was there not a higher intelligence behind that?

I think I should point out that if you accept that this was the only solution and that this was the prime goal, then your questions make sense. In the topic of evolution Organs, personalities, etc don't just pop into existence. Organism adapt and form from generation to the next through trial and error. There are more extinct species on the planet then there are living species. The liver adapted over several billions of years according to the modern evolutionary theory. Once again, I think we have a differnt understanding of the the definition of intelligence.

7. If the sun and moon can be explained by the big bang, how do we explain their perfect distance from earth to make it livable.

Once again this is based on the idea that this is how it had to be instead of how it just is. Perfection is a pretty impossible concept. What does it mean that the moon and sun are perfect distance? From what I understand, its not that we are the perfect distance, its that with the distance of the sun and moon, life adapted to the conditions set by the sun and moon.

If something was made out of nothing, then how did 'nothing' know how to calculate the math.

Nothing is a non concept. Its the absence of anything what so ever. Its a negative statement. Its like Darkness and light. Darkness isn't its own entity but the absence of light. Math is also just a concept, math in itself isn't an entity, it just the explanation of through human understanding of incrimants. So far, there is no theory that says anything came from nothing. The big bang doesn't make this statement. The big band just says that the universe expanded from a singularity. As far as we know, we just don't fully grasp what a singularity means based on our current concepts of science and math.

If something was made out of something, then how did something know how to appear.

If something dosen't have a brain or a concept of reality, then it really can't know anything. Knowing is a living concept and not everything in the universe is alive. A rock dosen't know to be a rock, it just is a rock. Why is the universe here? Why did it come into existence? Did it never not exist? I don't know, I'm just happy to be here and alive right now.

 

[cupid dave]

That just doesn't follow.

What was my illogical reasoning? Sorry, I missed what it was you were criticizing. As for a first cause, I do not see how the idea of cause and effect necessitates it. You could just as easily have an infinite series or say that the first effect was unique in that it had no cause. There is no logical reason to choose one of these options over another.

1) The failed logic rests in assuming the concept of intelligence is something to be found outside of humans, simply because humans can figure things out using their intelligence.

This just does not necessarily follow.
All we can say is that the Universe is rational, which means we can figure it out because it has rules.
Having rules is not having intelliegence.
Having rules is just having rules.

But in having rules or Natural Laws, we are able to use intelliegence to see those rules.


2) You are right to say that it does not necessarily mean that a First Cause is God, (whether an infinite series or otherwise), but it does follow that that initial Cause had the Effect of a Creation which now exists if one believes in Cause and Effect.

One can believe in magic or that things can happen without any cause.
If they do this they can deny Science has any basis, since Cause and Effect requires one to exempt the First Cause.

 

[Yah1]

I'm referring to the intelligence that created everything in the book of Genesis, God the Father of the heavens and earth. Jesus WAS God in the flesh, and when we confess our sins, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. That's why the tomb of Jesus is empty. He rose from the dead so he could dwell inside the believer. INSIDE YOUR SOUL. John 14:16. The comforter is the Holy Spirit. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one entity. A Jehovah Witness believes Jesus was the son of God but doesn't believe Jesus was God in the flesh, and that is false teaching. There is a lack of faith in this thread in regards to what the Bible says. What does the word 'Holy Spirit' mean to non believers, if you don't know why the tomb of Jesus is empty?

So the judgement throne of Christ doesn't exist for anyone that dies a non christian just because their beliefs are different? So if an atheist and a muslim commit sin, but don't know their committing sin, or they don't believe Jesus saved them from their sins..how does God judge them. I don't think sin is multi-layered, sin is all the same in God's eyes. I'm getting a lot of i don't knows, and it's there by chance answers. That's why they call it faith. How can you ever believe if you've never felt the Holy Spirit yet. You would have to admit you're a sinner first.

 

[The Unbeliever]

If you're baptized in the Holy Spirit and placed your faith in Jesus, then what God are you following?
.

I'm not following any God. These things are in my past, not my present.

 

[The Unbeliever]

1) The failed logic rests in assuming the concept of intelligence is something to be found outside of humans, simply because humans can figure things out using their intelligence.
Still not sure what you mean. I do believe that other things besides humans have intelligence.

This just does not necessarily follow.
All we can say is that the Universe is rational, which means we can figure it out because it has rules.
I wonder if ideas of rationality and irrationality can be applied to the universe. The universe doesn't have rules, it just is the way it is. If that constitutes a rule then so be it, but typically rules are a little more involved than that.

Having rules is not having intelliegence.
Having rules is just having rules.
OK, but I'm not sure how that relates to what I've been saying.

2) You are right to say that it does not necessarily mean that a First Cause is God, (whether an infinite series or otherwise), but it does follow that that initial Cause had the Effect of a Creation which now exists if one believes in Cause and Effect.
But that is still assuming there was an initial cause. I do not make that assumption.

One can believe in magic or that things can happen without any cause.
If they do this they can deny Science has any basis, since Cause and Effect requires one to exempt the First Cause.[/QUOTE]
That is not true. If science discovered a phenomena where something, an atom or whatever, came into being from nothing, this would not thereby nullify science. It would simply nullify the belief that something cannot come from nothing. Science is not a belief, it is first and foremost a methodology.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I'm referring to the intelligence that created everything in the book of Genesis, God the Father of the heavens and earth. Jesus WAS God in the flesh, and when we confess our sins, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. That's why the tomb of Jesus is empty. He rose from the dead so he could dwell inside the believer. INSIDE YOUR SOUL. John 14:16. The comforter is the Holy Spirit. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one entity. A Jehovah Witness believes Jesus was the son of God but doesn't believe Jesus was God in the flesh, and that is false teaching. There is a lack of faith in this thread in regards to what the Bible says. What does the word 'Holy Spirit' mean to non believers, if you don't know why the tomb of Jesus is empty?

Dude, I'm familiar with Christian doctrine. I wanted to be a pastor for a short amount of time on the subject. I know what the Bible says on these maters and I'm familiar with the proselytizing method you are using.

So the judgement throne of Christ doesn't exist for anyone that dies a non christian just because their beliefs are different?

I don't personaly believe in the Judgement throne of Jesus. This is my personal belief I came to from my own studies. If you believe it, then that is your belief. If you are interested in trying to convince me of this throne, Then have at it. I would be completely interested to understand why you believe in it.

So if an atheist and a muslim commit sin, but don't know their committing sin, or they don't believe Jesus saved them from their sins..how does God judge them.

According to Paul from your religion, they already know they sinned. They are guilty. I don't believe this and I disagree with Paul on this statement.

I don't think sin is multi-layered, sin is all the same in God's eyes. I'm getting a lot of i don't knows, and it's there by chance answers.

I haven't seen anyone say "its by chance" in this thread. I have seen "I don't know" and that is a valid answer. If you don't know something, its alright to say you don't know. No one knows everything.

That's why they call it faith.

No, faith is a positive assertion of knowing something. If some one says they don't know something, then they aren't putting forward a belief. They are admitting they don't hold a belief. The person might then after saying "I don't Know" their own reasoned explanation, but even that isn't faith. Faith requires commitment to an answer.

How can you ever believe if you've never felt the Holy Spirit yet.

I don't believe in Christianity's idea of the holy spirit, My beliefs are based on a different source.

You would have to admit you're a sinner first.

I don't share the same concept of sin with you. So I don't have to admit I'm a sinner because I don't necessarily believe in the concept of sin.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I'm referring to the intelligence that created everything in the book of Genesis, God the Father of the heavens and earth. Jesus WAS God in the flesh, and when we confess our sins, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. That's why the tomb of Jesus is empty. He rose from the dead so he could dwell inside the believer. INSIDE YOUR SOUL. John 14:16. The comforter is the Holy Spirit. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one entity. A Jehovah Witness believes Jesus was the son of God but doesn't believe Jesus was God in the flesh, and that is false teaching. There is a lack of faith in this thread in regards to what the Bible says. What does the word 'Holy Spirit' mean to non believers, if you don't know why the tomb of Jesus is empty?

I don't believe in the Genesis account, God, or Jesus as portrayed in the Bible. The word Holy Spirit means a divine person of the Triune Christian God as posited by Christian doctrine among other things. A non-believer can understand this without ascribing truth to the account. But you are right, I have been displaying a lack of faith with regard to what the Bible says in this thread. That is why I am the unbeliever.

So the judgement throne of Christ doesn't exist for anyone that dies a non christian just because their beliefs are different? So if an atheist and a muslim commit sin, but don't know their committing sin, or they don't believe Jesus saved them from their sins..how does God judge them. I don't think sin is multi-layered, sin is all the same in God's eyes. I'm getting a lot of i don't knows, and it's there by chance answers. That's why they call it faith. How can you ever believe if you've never felt the Holy Spirit yet. You would have to admit you're a sinner first.

No, most atheists would believe it doesn't exist for anyone, Christian or not. They don't believe in God. And I have confessed to being a sinner on multiple occasions. My problem wasn't that I wasn't repentant of my sins, but that I lost my belief in God that made such matters even meaningful.

 

[Yah1]

The unbeliever, do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh? Also, you can't unbaptize yourself from the Holy spirit. Once you're baptized, you're baptized for life. You are sealed in him for life regardless of how weak or strong your faith is right now. But you never lose your inheritance. Ephesians 1:11

Meatballsub - I don't personally believe in the Judgement throne of Jesus. This is my personal belief I came to from my own studies. Me - Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Type into google the Judgement throne of Christ. So what ARE your studies?

Meatballsub - I don't believe in Christianity's idea of the holy spirit, My beliefs are based on a different source. Me - What's your source?

 

[The Unbeliever]

The unbeliever, do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh? Also, you can't unbaptize yourself from the Holy spirit. Once you're baptized, you're baptized for life. You are sealed in him for life regardless of how weak or strong your faith is right now. But you never lose your inheritance. Ephesians 1:11

I no longer believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. I will have to take your word for not being able to unbaptize myself from the Holy Spirit and being sealed in him regardless of my faith. If I am wrong about God this will be a good thing for me.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Type into google the Judgement throne of Christ.

Oh I agree that just because I don't believe it doesn't mean it exists, but I wanted you to explain to me why you believe it exists and to see if you could enlighten me. I've done plenty of Google searches and read the Bible Many times. I was hoping for maybe a reason from you.

So what ARE your studies?

Read the Bible several times. Attended many Bible studies, read several other holy books. Took a few college courses that discussed history and did some personal reading into the origins of Hinduism, Buhdism, Zoraster, etc. Found most of them interesting and mix that in with some world experience from meet several people of different religions and talking to Atheists and skeptics that raised their own points.

What's your source?

It would take a massive post to even scratch the surface of what I truely believe and what philosophies have influenced me. I have had Christian influence, Hindu Influence, Nihilistic, Objectivist, Marxist, Capitalistic, Taoist, etc influences on my life. I don't think I could properly sum it up here. I would rather discuss on specific issues and what convinces me on that issue and why.

 

[Yah1]

The Judgement Throne of Christ - There is judgement after death because nothing sinful can enter into Heaven. God and Heaven are HOLY and without sin. For example, you wouldn't go up to a strangers house and say hi, can i live here..they would look at you like you were crazy. It doesn't work that way. It's the same with Jesus and Heaven. To know Jesus on a personal level, you have to be born of the Holy Spirit to enter Holy Land. So when you meet him at the judgement throne, he can say yes come on in, i know you. Your sins have been forgiven. You never heard of the Book of Life? So..with all the Bible knowledge you have you still don't believe in the Holy Spirit? You take all those religions, meditation practices and i guarantee you not one of them will bring you peace like the Holy Spirit brings you. Why do you think they call Jesus the prince of peace? Meatball, thank you for allowing me to talk to you about this, very cool of you. TY. Let's continue..

 

[Milk-Drops]

The Judgement Throne of Christ - There is judgement after death because nothing sinful can enter into Heaven. God and Heaven are HOLY and without sin. For example, you wouldn't go up to a strangers house and say hi, can i live here..they would look at you like you were crazy. It doesn't work that way. It's the same with Jesus and Heaven. To know Jesus on a personal level, you have to be born of the Holy Spirit to enter Holy Land. So when you meet him at the judgement throne, he can say yes come on in, i know you. Your sins have been forgiven.

This all presupposes I believe in the Christian Heaven. I don't. I admit that I don't know what happens after death. I'm just not convinced in the existence of heaven or hell.

You never heard of the Book of Life?

Yes I have heard of it, and the problem here is that I don't think you understand that I don't believe in a lot of the claims of Christianity. As I stated, I don't believe in the judgement of Jesus, so I wouldn't believe in the book of life.

So..with all the Bible knowledge you have you still don't believe in the Holy Spirit?

No, I used to, but I fell away for various reasons that are to long and most very personal and I don't feel comfortable sharing with a stranger online.

You take all those religions, meditation practices and i guarantee you not one of them will bring you peace like the Holy Spirit brings you.

I don't seek any specific religion to give me peace. The closest ones where Buddhism and Taoism but I understand and I see them more as philosophies then actual religions because I don't buy into reincarnation.

Why do you think they call Jesus the prince of peace?

I know why some factions call him that, but according to the Bible, Jesus did not bring peace, he brought a new form of conflict and even says so when he states that his message will cause conflict. The entire message of Christianity clashes with several aspects of philosophy and was a huge problem to Rome during its early creation.

Meatball, thank you for allowing me to talk to you about this, very cool of you. TY. Let's continue..

No problem. I enjoy deep discussion on these topics. I'm glad that you are being patient about this and responding. I hope to delve more.

 

[cupid dave]

The Judgement Throne of Christ -

There is judgement after death because nothing sinful can enter into Heaven.

God and Heaven are HOLY and without sin. For example, you wouldn't go up to a strangers house and say hi, can i live here..they would look at you like you were crazy. It doesn't work that way. It's the same with Jesus and Heaven. To know Jesus on a personal level, you have to be born of the Holy Spirit to enter Holy Land. So when you meet him at the judgement throne, he can say yes come on in, i know you. Your sins have been forgiven. You never heard of the Book of Life? So..with all the Bible knowledge you have you still don't believe in the Holy Spirit? You take all those religions, meditation practices and i guarantee you not one of them will bring you peace like the Holy Spirit brings you. Why do you think they call Jesus the prince of peace? Meatball, thank you for allowing me to talk to you about this, very cool of you. TY. Let's continue..

The way Theistic Evolution understands this is based upon the scriptures which tell us that YHVH is the God of the living, not the dead.
Living things are on earth, here and now.
This is eseentially God's kingdom, since it follows from the fact that He is the God of the living, and that is what we are all doing right here on Earth, now.

The sin that men commit is always against Nature in the sense that it works toward the demise of our species rather than promoting our Adaptation to our Environment, both naturalistic and social.

By behaving in ways that tend to eliminate our own species, like spreading STD or War, we are supporting our own Extinction.
That is the second death for man.

Though we regenerate ourselves from one generation to the next, we can do things that will eliminate us as a species, too.

The judgement that will be nade was the same as in the days of Naoh. w
When the flood Out-of-Afica established Modern Man as the dominant species on Earth, at the same time, it drove all other sub-human species to a final judgement of extinction.

We see them no more among the living, no more in this heaven, no more ruled by the God of the Living because they are truly and permanently dead.

 

[cupid dave]

If you're baptized in the Holy Spirit and placed your faith in Jesus, then what God are you following?
.

Obviously from the scriptures that would be the God (or abstract Ideal) of Truth.

Truth is man's light into the real world which we must adapt to in order to survive as a species and gain the eternal life that a species can look forward to by such Adaptations to the Environment.

 

[cupid dave]

This all presupposes I believe in the Christian Heaven. I don't.

I admit that I don't know what happens after death.

I'm just not convinced in the existence of heaven or hell.

You are thinking like a dinosaur in that they knew that what happens after their individual death was that their off spring re-populated the Earth and remained among the living.
They had no clue that the force behind the ever changing and unfolding next frame of Reality could drive them to Extinction unless they adapted to His Laws.

Man has the abilty to IMAGE this Natural Force that reigns over the living and man can make wise decisions that adjust his life style to the next unfolding of this God of the living.
But, man must accept the Truth about his behavior and its long term effects upon his own species.

 

[Yah1]

Obviously from the scriptures that would be the God (or abstract Ideal) of Truth.

Truth is man's light into the real world which we must adapt to in order to survive as a species and gain the eternal life that a species can look forward to by such Adaptations to the Environment.

The Bible, scriptures and anything that pertains to sin and flesh will never make sense to a person who doesn't believe Jesus was God in the Flesh. They will continue to find excuses to sin. Convincing yourself you are baptized in the spirit, but do not follow a God is the definition of a false prophet. The true prophets understand this. If Jesus died on the cross for our sins and wasn't God, then what was the point of Jesus suffering in the flesh, coming down from heaven to begin with. It doesn't make sense. If he wasn't God, then why do people say he lived a perfect life. People accused Mary of having an affair, but the reality is that God placed himself in the womb of Mary and formed himself into a human being, a baby. God took the form of a human being and suffered in the flesh and bore our sins, and he overcame the world by resisting the devil. God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one person working together in unity, The Holy Trinity. To be born again, you must believe in your heart and soul that Jesus was God in the flesh. Unfortunately, not many people will find him. Matthew 7:13.

They'll keep living in sin while spreading false doctrine. You see, the only difference between someone who has seen and felt the light of the holy spirit is that you can't convince them that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh. Born again Christians have felt the peace and love of God. What they feel is not earthly love and peace, it's directly from HEAVEN. NOT AS THE WORLD GIVETH John 14:27

 

[Milk-Drops]

You are thinking like a dinosaur in that they knew that what happens after their individual death was that their off spring re-populated the Earth and remained among the living.
They had no clue that the force behind the ever changing and unfolding next frame of Reality could drive them to Extinction unless they adapted to His Laws.

Well, since I don't believe in the Garden of Eden, I don't hold much relevance to this claim.

Man has the abilty to IMAGE this Natural Force that reigns over the living and man can make wise decisions that adjust his life style to the next unfolding of this God of the living.
But, man must accept the Truth about his behavior and its long term effects upon his own species.

Yes, we need to learn to learn and accept the consequences of "our" actions in my opinion. I don't believe all of man is responsible for the acts of 2 in the Eden story. Also, man being able to Imagine this "Natural Force" or God doesn't convince me of the Christian God's existance. If there is a god, then I believe it is way outside our understanding and nothing like the god(s) of the Jews, Islam, Christiantiy, Hinus, etc.