B
brakelite2
Guest
With this thread my prime motive is to defend the character and nature of God. I am not defending any particular church's doctrine, nor promoting any church's particular doctrine. What I care about is how the nature of God is presented to a world lost and in need of a loving, merciful and just Savior.
“I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.†Gen 3:15
This is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah in all of scripture. It was the first official public pronouncement of God’s eternal gospel, the redemption of mankind. This plan for man’s restoration to fellowship with the Most High was laid out in advance of the fall of Adam. God foresaw sin and all the woe, trouble and pain and death that it would bring, but inestimable love ordained that “ God give His only begotten Son, that whosoever beleiveth in Him should never perish, but have eternal life.†Jn. 3:16.
I Peter 1:19,20. 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
From that moment forward, for 4000 years, every prophecy, every act of God in rebuke, chastening, judgement; every lesson taught, every law, instruction, statute and command; every blessing bestowed or withdrawn, all came from a God of infinite, unfailing compassionate love. This same love, in the sacrifices, the sanctuary with all it’s furniture, artifacts, vestments and services including the annual Sabbaths, pointed down through the ages to the time when God would fulfill that initial promise given to Adam and Eve. Calvary. The cross. The time when “ God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:†The entire OT is one glorious arrow pointing down through the ages to that one single event. Calvary. Jesus Himself, when speaking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, explained the gospel and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.†Luke 24:27
Calvary is the focal point of all human history. The focus of all scripture. The OT pointed to it, and promised it. The NT was written because of it. Everything else in human history, whether war, famine , or even Noah’s flood, apart from the second coming, pales into utter insignificance in comparison. Calvary is the epicenter of all human history, and everything else is subservient to it.
Therefore, because of the exalted nature of the cross, and everything that pertains to it, any doctrine, any belief, that contradicts, undermines, or changes the fabric and nature of the atonement brought to us by God through His Son Jesus, must be condemned.
There is one major doctrine taught and published by nearly every Christian denomination in the world. That is the doctrine of eternal torment.
This doctrine directly contradicts and flies in the face of two crucial aspects of the atonement and for that reason, must be repudiated and condemned at every turn.
1st aspect:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
i Jn:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Propitiation atonement; mercy met; judgement and condemnation expiated.
Paul, in 1 Corinthians twice mentions that we are bought with a price. This price is the redeeming value of the atonement. So what was the price paid for our redemption? And who paid the price?
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
There it is. The price of our redemption was His BLOOD! By means of death the blood was shed to pay the price of transgression. Every sacrifice in the OT foreshadowed it. And the death of Christ on Calvary fulfilled it. Eternal torment was not a part of the deal, else Jesus would still be there. He would be forever paying the penalty and never satisfying it’s claims.
2nd aspect:
The doctrine of eternal torment contradicts and attacks front on the very nature and character of God.
The cross proves that God is LOVE, but where has love gone when eternal pain is deliberately inflicted and not alleviated?
The cross proves that God is MERCIFUL, but where has mercy gone if there is no satisfaction in the agony of others?
The cross proves that God is HOLY, but where has holiness gone when sin and evil are forever preserved?
The cross proves that God is JUST, but where has justice gone when for a short lifetime of sin the punishment is eternal torment?
It is the justice aspect that I would like to focus on. We all praise and worship God knowing He is a just God. That means that He is fair.
So please tell me, what is fair and just when a 12 year old child dies without Christ and his greatest sin was to lie and disobey his parents. For this he is now suffering forever in the raging fires of hell. A 1000 trillion light years will be merely the beginning of his torment.
Satan however is not there yet. Nor any of his angels. This does not occur until at least another 1000 years from now at the end of the millenium. Nor yet are there in hell the dictators, murderers and torturers, rapists, thieves, blasphemers etc etc that have yet to fulfill their days. Yet my hypothetical 14 year old example who died of hunger in the year 576 AD has been supposedly in hell nearly 1500 years longer than the worst killers and criminals alive today and who are still vomiting their filth and vileness upon mankind!
Where is the justice in that???
Jesus died a most excruciating death upon the cross of calvary. Many other criminals of His day died in the same fashion. What made Jesus death more painful was the weight of sin and guilt that was laid upon Him at the time. He was made sin Who knew no sin. The entire weight of sin of every man, woman and child from the time of Adam to the time of the second coming was laid upon His conscience and He bore that shame and guilt on our behalf. Death was the wages of sin. Death was what God foretold would be the cost of sin. Satan lied and told Eve 'thou shalt not die', yet God was proved correct. Calvary vindicated God's righteousness, justice, and mercy.
Yet it is taught that if one rejects that offer of mercy, one would have to pay the price of his sin himself. True. But the price has escalated to never ending torture! Death with interest!!! Did not Jesus par the full price?? So where is the justice that He should suffer death for the sins of many, yet we should be tormented forever for the sins of one????
Without disrespecting or minimising what Jesus suffered, I wonder if I would rather go through what He did than go through what the church teaches for the lost.
In this doctrine, I accept the plain teaching of God's word. No translation or interpretation necessary.
Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be....
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Malachi 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mathew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles toburn them: but gather the wheat into my barn...
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Hebrews 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Mathew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Sin must be eradicated. It is an affront and an abomination that destroys everything it touches. Like cancer, if it is not cut out it will grow. Sin must and will be destroyed. The sad thing is not everyone desires to be rid of the sin in their lives. Many cling to cherished habits and cleave to their idols. If they stubbornly refuse to accept Christ's offer of freedom through His atoning sacrifice and have not the faith to believe that God can free them from the power and malignancy of sin, they, along with the sin, will be destroyed together. That shows the love of God for his creation. To protect His universe forever from any possibility that sin may rise again, sin and sinners must be destroyed. That is why the promise: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
“I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.†Gen 3:15
This is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah in all of scripture. It was the first official public pronouncement of God’s eternal gospel, the redemption of mankind. This plan for man’s restoration to fellowship with the Most High was laid out in advance of the fall of Adam. God foresaw sin and all the woe, trouble and pain and death that it would bring, but inestimable love ordained that “ God give His only begotten Son, that whosoever beleiveth in Him should never perish, but have eternal life.†Jn. 3:16.
I Peter 1:19,20. 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
From that moment forward, for 4000 years, every prophecy, every act of God in rebuke, chastening, judgement; every lesson taught, every law, instruction, statute and command; every blessing bestowed or withdrawn, all came from a God of infinite, unfailing compassionate love. This same love, in the sacrifices, the sanctuary with all it’s furniture, artifacts, vestments and services including the annual Sabbaths, pointed down through the ages to the time when God would fulfill that initial promise given to Adam and Eve. Calvary. The cross. The time when “ God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:†The entire OT is one glorious arrow pointing down through the ages to that one single event. Calvary. Jesus Himself, when speaking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, explained the gospel and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.†Luke 24:27
Calvary is the focal point of all human history. The focus of all scripture. The OT pointed to it, and promised it. The NT was written because of it. Everything else in human history, whether war, famine , or even Noah’s flood, apart from the second coming, pales into utter insignificance in comparison. Calvary is the epicenter of all human history, and everything else is subservient to it.
Therefore, because of the exalted nature of the cross, and everything that pertains to it, any doctrine, any belief, that contradicts, undermines, or changes the fabric and nature of the atonement brought to us by God through His Son Jesus, must be condemned.
There is one major doctrine taught and published by nearly every Christian denomination in the world. That is the doctrine of eternal torment.
This doctrine directly contradicts and flies in the face of two crucial aspects of the atonement and for that reason, must be repudiated and condemned at every turn.
1st aspect:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
i Jn:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Propitiation atonement; mercy met; judgement and condemnation expiated.
Paul, in 1 Corinthians twice mentions that we are bought with a price. This price is the redeeming value of the atonement. So what was the price paid for our redemption? And who paid the price?
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
There it is. The price of our redemption was His BLOOD! By means of death the blood was shed to pay the price of transgression. Every sacrifice in the OT foreshadowed it. And the death of Christ on Calvary fulfilled it. Eternal torment was not a part of the deal, else Jesus would still be there. He would be forever paying the penalty and never satisfying it’s claims.
2nd aspect:
The doctrine of eternal torment contradicts and attacks front on the very nature and character of God.
The cross proves that God is LOVE, but where has love gone when eternal pain is deliberately inflicted and not alleviated?
The cross proves that God is MERCIFUL, but where has mercy gone if there is no satisfaction in the agony of others?
The cross proves that God is HOLY, but where has holiness gone when sin and evil are forever preserved?
The cross proves that God is JUST, but where has justice gone when for a short lifetime of sin the punishment is eternal torment?
It is the justice aspect that I would like to focus on. We all praise and worship God knowing He is a just God. That means that He is fair.
So please tell me, what is fair and just when a 12 year old child dies without Christ and his greatest sin was to lie and disobey his parents. For this he is now suffering forever in the raging fires of hell. A 1000 trillion light years will be merely the beginning of his torment.
Satan however is not there yet. Nor any of his angels. This does not occur until at least another 1000 years from now at the end of the millenium. Nor yet are there in hell the dictators, murderers and torturers, rapists, thieves, blasphemers etc etc that have yet to fulfill their days. Yet my hypothetical 14 year old example who died of hunger in the year 576 AD has been supposedly in hell nearly 1500 years longer than the worst killers and criminals alive today and who are still vomiting their filth and vileness upon mankind!
Where is the justice in that???
Jesus died a most excruciating death upon the cross of calvary. Many other criminals of His day died in the same fashion. What made Jesus death more painful was the weight of sin and guilt that was laid upon Him at the time. He was made sin Who knew no sin. The entire weight of sin of every man, woman and child from the time of Adam to the time of the second coming was laid upon His conscience and He bore that shame and guilt on our behalf. Death was the wages of sin. Death was what God foretold would be the cost of sin. Satan lied and told Eve 'thou shalt not die', yet God was proved correct. Calvary vindicated God's righteousness, justice, and mercy.
Yet it is taught that if one rejects that offer of mercy, one would have to pay the price of his sin himself. True. But the price has escalated to never ending torture! Death with interest!!! Did not Jesus par the full price?? So where is the justice that He should suffer death for the sins of many, yet we should be tormented forever for the sins of one????
Without disrespecting or minimising what Jesus suffered, I wonder if I would rather go through what He did than go through what the church teaches for the lost.
In this doctrine, I accept the plain teaching of God's word. No translation or interpretation necessary.
Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be....
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Malachi 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mathew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles toburn them: but gather the wheat into my barn...
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Hebrews 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Mathew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Sin must be eradicated. It is an affront and an abomination that destroys everything it touches. Like cancer, if it is not cut out it will grow. Sin must and will be destroyed. The sad thing is not everyone desires to be rid of the sin in their lives. Many cling to cherished habits and cleave to their idols. If they stubbornly refuse to accept Christ's offer of freedom through His atoning sacrifice and have not the faith to believe that God can free them from the power and malignancy of sin, they, along with the sin, will be destroyed together. That shows the love of God for his creation. To protect His universe forever from any possibility that sin may rise again, sin and sinners must be destroyed. That is why the promise: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
: The truth : how often is Biblical truth in 'the middle of the road'. There are always extremes going both ways to suit those of almost any persuasion. Your simple clear explanation was well put.