Where Is the Lake of Fire?

[Orion]

Thank you, vic.

 

[Bick]

DISCUSSION ON THE OP:

First, Jesus first mentions a doom of fire in Matt. 25:31-41: "when He (Son of man) comes in his glory..and all the holy angels with him...then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory....then shall he say...depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." AV.

QUESTION: Is this "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" the lake of fire described in Revelation?

MY CONCLUSION: Yes, it is. For we read in Rev. 20:10, "The devil...was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are,..."

QUESTION: Will this lake of fire be somewhere reasonably close to Christ's throne in Jerusalem?

CONCLUSION: Yes, it will. For Rev. 14:9-11 tells us that those who "worship the beast....shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." AV.

In my opinion, the great earthquake that takes place just before our Lord's return to earth, will not only flatten all the works of man, reduce mountains etc, change the geography in and around Jerusalem, but will create a lake of fire and brimstone somewhere close to Jerusalem (but not the dead sea).

Bick

 

[Orion]

And we're supposed to be happy in Heaven while there are people, maybe even close friends and loved ones, in eye shot burning and crying out in agony???? : If I'm NOT crying for them, at that time, . . . . then I know I will not be ME!

 

[Lewis]

And we're supposed to be happy in Heaven while there are people, maybe even close friends and loved ones, in eye shot burning and crying out in agony???? : If I'm NOT crying for them, at that time, . . . . then I know I will not be ME!

Orion' how long have ou been a Christian ?

 

[Bick]

And we're supposed to be happy in Heaven while there are people, maybe even close friends and loved ones, in eye shot burning and crying out in agony???? : If I'm NOT crying for them, at that time, . . . . then I know I will not be ME!

Orion, as believers in the church/body of Christ, Paul reveals to us that after the rapture, having spiritual bodies, we will be blessed with all the spiritual blessings that God has prepared for us in the heavenlies (Eph. 1:3-6).
God reckons us to be raised with Christ, and seated with him in the heavenlies, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6-7)

SO, we will be far from Jerusalem and the things of earth, even though we might be allowed to visit it.

Bick

 

[Orion]

Huh? :-? I believe that I'll still know that they're suffering. Besides, what is the point of people in agony "before the Lamb"? Will they see Jesus while they're in agony? Is this supposed to be some kind of divine "I told you so"? :-?

 

[Atonement]

Orion, In the Book od Revelation God say's He wipes all tears from our eyes, and that the formal things be not be remembered. You are suggesting that "before the Lamb" indicates it's before the saints as well? Do you have Scripture for this indication? If we are told that it will be a place of no pain/sorrow/death etc then I'll take God at His Word..

In the meantime, if you will be heart broken then because people will be in torment, God is heart broken now because they have rejected His salvation. His own creation has turned their backs on Him.. This is like having your own child turn their back on you and reject you.

Orion if you do not want to feel this pain that is already starting to bundle up in your heart, do something about it. Witness to your friends and family, allow them the chance to hear the Goespel and then it's between them and God at this point, you should feel at ease that you have done what you could, that it was their rejection and nothing else.

 

[Orion]

Orion, In the Book od Revelation God say's He wipes all tears from our eyes, and that the formal things be not be remembered. You are suggesting that "before the Lamb" indicates it's before the saints as well? Do you have Scripture for this indication? If we are told that it will be a place of no pain/sorrow/death etc then I'll take God at His Word..

In the meantime, if you will be heart broken then because people will be in torment, God is heart broken now because they have rejected His salvation. His own creation has turned their backs on Him.. This is like having your own child turn their back on you and reject you.

Orion if you do not want to feel this pain that is already starting to bundle up in your heart, do something about it. Witness to your friends and family, allow them the chance to hear the Goespel and then it's between them and God at this point, you should feel at ease that you have done what you could, that it was their rejection and nothing else.

Many people just don't believe in the possibility of anything supernatural. They are "turning their back" on nothing. If they KNEW for a fact there was a God THEN turned their back on God, then you could equate it to "a child turning their back on their parent".

Having said that, we all have people that know all about the Christian religion and what it stands for, and how that religion says you should be. All my friends and family know this. It doesn't mean that they will follow the Christian doctrines. Nothing I say to them will change their minds because they have to decide on that themselves.

Having said THAT. . . . . even if the Christian doctrines of Hell are actually true, nothing they have done would warrant that eternal punishment, and it would have to be the case where my thoughts of them would have to be taken away. . . . . but then if we're supposed to have "the mind of Christ", I don't see how we'll be shielded from our loved ones burning in Hell.

Having said EVEN THAT, . . . . . . one would have to wonder why it would be necessary to removed the thoughts of loved ones from the minds of countless numbers of people to the truth of what's going on. The Christian idea of Hell is a horrible HORRIBLE thought .. . . . .and was created by God. :-?

That's why I don't believe that our current idea of Hell is even correct. A "burning lake of fire created for the Devil and his angels" makes no sense since angelic beings aren't affected by physical fire . . . like the "resurrected damned" WILL BE!!

 

[Fnerb]

That's why I don't believe that our current idea of Hell is even correct. A "burning lake of fire created for the Devil and his angels" makes no sense since angelic beings aren't affected by physical fire . . . like the "resurrected damned" WILL BE!!

What if it isn't a true "lake of fire"? What if all of that was just imagry? What if Hell is pain of the worst kind, a pain that Christ experienced on the cross - eternal seperation from God.

I realize there are a lot of "what if's" there...

 

[Atonement]

Many people just don't believe in the possibility of anything supernatural. They are "turning their back" on nothing. If they KNEW for a fact there was a God THEN turned their back on God, then you could equate it to "a child turning their back on their parent".

Well if this is how you feel then why have sorrow in Heaven? Because you feel this way you think others should? Give them that chance to make their own choice..

Having said that, we all have people that know all about the Christian religion and what it stands for, and how that religion says you should be. All my friends and family know this. It doesn't mean that they will follow the Christian doctrines. Nothing I say to them will change their minds because they have to decide on that themselves.

Today is the day of repentance, if they refuse to follow the Christian faith, they have made that choice all on their own, and a price they will pay.

Having said THAT. . . . . even if the Christian doctrines of Hell are actually true, nothing they have done would warrant that eternal punishment, and it would have to be the case where my thoughts of them would have to be taken away. . . . . but then if we're supposed to have "the mind of Christ", I don't see how we'll be shielded from our loved ones burning in Hell.

Yeah we'll agree to disagree on this one. I think the price is right.

Having said EVEN THAT, . . . . . . one would have to wonder why it would be necessary to removed the thoughts of loved ones from the minds of countless numbers of people to the truth of what's going on. The Christian idea of Hell is a horrible HORRIBLE thought .. . . . .and was created by God.

I don't look at it as a horrible thought, but rather a horrible reality.

That's why I don't believe that our current idea of Hell is even correct. A "burning lake of fire created for the Devil and his angels" makes no sense since angelic beings aren't affected by physical fire . . . like the "resurrected damned" WILL BE!!

Please share with us any Spiritual insight with us (seriously). Since you claim with such comments that you seem to understand, how is it you know that the spiritual will not have feelings of pain in Hell? So Orion tell me how come the Bible say's that those in Heaven will have no sun nor feel the heat of the day? I would love to have this explained with your spiritual knowledge on Spiritual feelings of our eternal state?

 

[Orion]

I feel that there is a lot more analogy language used in the Bible than most Christians accept AS such. Revelation is FULL of imagery and analogy. Christ spoke in parables and 'hard to understand' words and even told his disciples that he did so on purpose. I think that Heaven, Hell, and most things spiritual cannot really be put into human words and understood with human knowledge. All we know is this earth, and that causes writers to be bound to writing about spiritual things and placing human finite explanations on them. They may be doing the best they can but falling WAY short of the reality of what the Spiritual/Heaven/Hell will actually be like.

This is just the way I see it. That's why I post against some things I feel are overly human influenced.

 

[Atonement]

Orion I agree with your last response, so we can not say that "hell" will not be felt by the spiritual. Because we do not know enough to make those assumptions.

We do know that we will have feelings in Heaven, or why would God say He wipes all the tears from our eyes? I think it's best to witness to everyone, as a Christian we all should, and allow everyone to have a chance to accept or decline, starting with our friends and family members.

 

[Vic C.]

I feel that there is a lot more analogy language used in the Bible than most Christians accept AS such. Revelation is FULL of imagery and analogy....

Orion, you are correct about the analogies and imagery found throughout the Bible, especially Revelation.

Why do many people take Revelation 14:10 in a literalistic sense, but not Matthew 18:9?

It's obvious you see more analogous than most here. Are you comfortable with that or is that what's bothering you? It's human nature to want to know and understand everything, but God doesn't see it that way. He told the nation of Israel this:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

[Orion]

I suppose it does bother me some, vic, yes. Perhaps I shouldn't let it. I hope I am right, I may not be. All I can do is trust that God is more loving and just that we can even imagine.

 

[Drew]

I suppose it does bother me some, vic, yes. Perhaps I shouldn't let it. I hope I am right, I may not be. All I can do is trust that God is more loving and just that we can even imagine.

Have you checked out the thread I referred you to earlier.

In my opinion, the Scriptures clearly teach that the lost will annihilated in hell, not preserved there forever.

If you come to the same position, it may address some concerns about reconciling a loving God with the notion of hell.

 

[Solo]

Orion, you are correct about the analogies and imagery found throughout the Bible, especially Revelation.

Why do many people take Revelation 14:10 in a literalistic sense, but not Matthew 18:9?

It's obvious you see more analogous than most here. Are you comfortable with that or is that what's bothering you? It's human nature to want to know and understand everything, but God doesn't see it that way. He told the nation of Israel this:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Just for the record, I take both Revelation 14:10 and Matthew 18:9 as literal representations of the truth.

But you knew that! :D

 

[jgredline]

Just for the record, I take both Revelation 14:10 and Matthew 18:9 as literal representations of the truth.

But you knew that! :D

As do I...This is after all what the bible teaches... :-D

 

[jgredline]

In my opinion, the Scriptures clearly teach that the lost will annihilated in hell, not preserved there forever.

Drew..I am happy that you mentioned it is only your opinion, because the bible clearly teaches eternal torment where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... :o

Ok...And everyone else is welcome to join in....
Lets take a ''different'' approach to this....Lets ''SUPPOSE/ PRETEND'' for a second your right...and we are wholeistic beings, and those who are not saved will get sent to hell where they will be burned until destroyed...Now this could take seconds, minutes, weeks, months, billions of years, whatever the number we choose, according to your and other annihilist beliefs, the fire will eventually destroy us.....thus annihilated....

There is a major flaw with this...It is called ''matter'' ...As I was helping my 7 year old son and daughter (twins) with their science project on the properties of fire, I was reminded, that ashes and even the smoke and gases that are unseen are ''matter''....They are comprised of atoms and molecules, etc...

So guess what, Your theory just went up in smoke..... 8-)

http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/textbo ... atter.html

 

[Vic C.]

Just for the record, I take both Revelation 14:10 and Matthew 18:9 as literal representations of the truth.

But you knew that! :D

Oh my goodness, I can't even answer that without sounding callous and you know I still love you bro, but you do wear a patch over one eye, man... so you leave me speechless. :


;-)

 

[Orion]

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much done with this topic. My bottom line is, the scriptures on Hell were put there by men for whatever reason they had and was not from God, nor is what the future holds. It makes no sense, is not at all loving, and not at all just. We know so little of the Spiritual yet think that because someone wrote something about Hell that ended up in Canon, it must be true. Well, I cannot hold to such thoughts any longer.

People do bad things, yes. No one's sin is worth "everlasting punishment".

Agree to disagree.