Where to Draw the Line?

[tandemcpl]

I didn’t want to highjack another thread so I thought I would post this question here.

Legalism and Christian freedom came up in a different thread along with where to draw a line between the two.

My point of view is that if we take too many “Liberties” and let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer. If we become just like those of the world, wouldn’t that diminish our light.

The word of God says, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” 2 Cor. 5:17, ESV

I don’t think it is “Legalism” to accept Paul at his word and let Jesus change us instead of us trying to change the church to what we want.

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture.

The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment.

The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in.

And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church.

The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Be blessed.


Toby

 

[OhFarouk]

I agree with a lot of what you say.

In the end motive has a lot to do with it, right?

For example, some Christians prefer to avoid rock music.

Fine.

Others think that hard hitting Christian lyrics by a hard rock band can be effective.

I think Romans 14 gives some leeway for individual motivation and preferences. Based on the respect for others, of course.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

I didn’t want to highjack another thread so I thought I would post this question here.

Legalism and Christian freedom came up in a different thread along with where to draw a line between the two.

My point of view is that if we take too many “Liberties” and let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer. If we become just like those of the world, wouldn’t that diminish our light.

The word of God says, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” 2 Cor. 5:17, ESV

I don’t think it is “Legalism” to accept Paul at his word and let Jesus change us instead of us trying to change the church to what we want.

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture.

The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment.

The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in.

And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church.

The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Be blessed.


Toby

I hear the author making opinion statements but without a description of what he is referring to one could draw many conclusions of their own and miss the whole point of his statements.
Can you be more specific?

 

[tandemcpl]

I hear the author making opinion statements but without a description of what he is referring to one could draw many conclusions of their own and miss the whole point of his statements.
Can you be more specific?

Good afternoon Deborah,

This started in the Tattoo Thread. My stance was that tattoos are of the world and Christians should not get them. I cited Rom.12:1-2 as my reference.

One of the replies to my post was, “Christian liberty is at stake here and only a legalist will try to take that away from us. I am a soldier for Christ and I fight for the liberty that Jesus gave us when he died on the cross for us.”

Not wanting to hijack that thread by talking about liberty and legalism, I started this one.

I was hesitant to post the thread that prompted this post because I didn’t want this to grow into another tattoo thread.

Be blessed.

Toby

 

[OhFarouk]

Maybe I wouldn't say 'only a legalist'.

I think it's important to respect people's hearts, one way or the other. Like in whatever issue. I guess defining legalism is another case in point. I would regard myself as strongly against legalism, while some of my dear brethren might honestly and sincerely define it a bit differently.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

So I would agree with the same attitude as OhFarouk's post #2.

I don't agree with the Church of Christ's view of no musical instruments used in church. However, I respect their right to that opinion and to attend a church with only vocals in church. I don't see a scripture that says one must have instruments but I see that in the OT musical instruments were used without any correction from God on the subject.

So in determining what is sin and the Bible doesn't give a clear answer on a particular issue I try to determine whether it hurts someone or leads them into some type of temptation that they might have a problem with, even if I don't.

 

[Obadiah]

Well, personally when I see statements like "...let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer" it makes me shudder because this is usually a concept coming from someone's own personal dislikes of certain things who wants them excluded from churches for his own enjoyment. If all the church has to offer are things that few or no people want, what good is that? Sure, we are to be different, and we are not to worship and covet all the things of the world, but there is no scripture stating that if a certain thing is used by the rest of the world that we are automatically prohibited from using it just because non-Christians use it. In fact, that would be very humanly impossible to live up to.

Also the idea that just because something isn't specifically used or commanded in scripture doesn't mean that it is therefore prohibited. This is false logic. Prohibit members from stealing from each other? Sure, that's a clear command in scripture as well as a secular law in every place I know of. Prohibit certain musical instruments or prohibit all musical instruments? That's just the result of a person or a group of people selfishly imposing their own personal tastes and preferences on everyone around them and has no support in scripture. I'm not saying every church should allow everything. But let's just be honest about why these kind of things aren't allowed and admit it's just our own personal preference, and lets quit condemning others as lower class or immature Christians who do like and allow these things.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree. its a personal issue on types of music. while I don't like a lot of the ccm these days not all of it is bad.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I have no definite answers (baby Christian here). All I can say is that the quote your provided is spot on. Our culture has effectively de-clawed Christianity. I find it worrisome, but I don't have anything to offer, obviously...just another believer. All I think we can do is act on an individual basis. For me, that means: no drinking, quit smoking, and try to sharpen my thinking, so I have critical thinking that lines up with The Word of God.

I do think tattoos are a bit too worldly for believers. I read somewhere that our culture now celebrates behavior--sodomy, fornication, heavy drinking, drug abuse, etc.--that was once associated with the dregs of society. I guess this is how Satan is working in our world, de-humanizing us as we all race to the bottom. Anyway, I know tattoos were common in the military, but other than that...tattoos used to be considered undesirable. Now, they're trendy as can be. Of course, everybody who gets one is "expressing their individuality." Of course.

Sorry...I'm kinda rambling. I guess I'm saying that I don't think "Christian liberty" should include tattoos and excessive worldliness, but I don't think there's a group-level solution. Our whole culture--church included--is going down hill, probably irretrievably. Best thing is to focus on your own inner-transformation "by the renewal of your mind," choose your friends wisely, and live out your own version of "Christian liberty" that excludes such worldliness.

 

[PrivateTimm]

Tattoos, cigarettes, alcohol, rock music, etc are not forbidden in Scripture and if you try to pull out some passage about not "conforming to the ways of the world" you can take it to absurd levels. Do you have a cell phone, a computer, wear clothes that are not plain, drive a car, use public transportation? How far do you want to take "conforming"? My distant relatives who are Hutterites, Mennonites and other assorted Anabaptist and Huguenot sects think 99.9999% of Christians are too conformed to the world.

The endless discussions on tattoos and the rest on this board are ridiculous. Many want to quote Paul as if he had an opinion on tattoos, but completely ignore Paul in Titus 3:9 when he says, "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless."

Boy was he right.

 

[OhFarouk]

Well, personally when I see statements like "...let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer" it makes me shudder because this is usually a concept coming from someone's own personal dislikes of certain things who wants them excluded from churches for his own enjoyment. If all the church has to offer are things that few or no people want, what good is that? Sure, we are to be different, and we are not to worship and covet all the things of the world, but there is no scripture stating that if a certain thing is used by the rest of the world that we are automatically prohibited from using it just because non-Christians use it. In fact, that would be very humanly impossible to live up to.

Also the idea that just because something isn't specifically used or commanded in scripture doesn't mean that it is therefore prohibited. This is false logic. Prohibit members from stealing from each other? Sure, that's a clear command in scripture as well as a secular law in every place I know of. Prohibit certain musical instruments or prohibit all musical instruments? That's just the result of a person or a group of people selfishly imposing their own personal tastes and preferences on everyone around them and has no support in scripture. I'm not saying every church should allow everything. But let's just be honest about why these kind of things aren't allowed and admit it's just our own personal preference, and lets quit condemning others as lower class or immature Christians who do like and allow these things.

The world and the Lord are indeed at enmity.

But trying arbitrarily to police other people's consciences and practices in areas where the Bible seems to be silent is legalism.

Blessings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Tattoos, cigarettes, alcohol, rock music, etc are not forbidden in Scripture and if you try to pull out some passage about not "conforming to the ways of the world" you can take it to absurd levels. Do you have a cell phone, a computer, wear clothes that are not plain, drive a car, use public transportation? How far do you want to take "conforming"? My distant relatives who are Hutterites, Mennonites and other assorted Anabaptist and Huguenot sects think 99.9999% of Christians are too conformed to the world.

The endless discussions on tattoos and the rest on this board are ridiculous. Many want to quote Paul as if he had an opinion on tattoos, but completely ignore Paul in Titus 3:9 when he says, "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless."

Boy was he right.

Actually PrivateTimm, these type of topics are very relevant to everyday life as a Christian.
They bring out a lot of other issues that people deal with everyday.
I think these type of topics are some of the best of the forum.

 

[jasoncran]

so god doesn't mind if we do pot? pot is less addictive then nicotine, and in some cases less damaging. nicotine while not has strong on the senses as pot but it does affect the body with cancer.where do we stop with that? yes we must be reasonable on the drugs, ie caffeine and such like but nicotine?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I didn’t want to highjack another thread so I thought I would post this question here.

Legalism and Christian freedom came up in a different thread along with where to draw a line between the two.

My point of view is that if we take too many “Liberties” and let too much of the world into the Church, then what does the church have to offer. If we become just like those of the world, wouldn’t that diminish our light.

The word of God says, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” 2 Cor. 5:17, ESV

I don’t think it is “Legalism” to accept Paul at his word and let Jesus change us instead of us trying to change the church to what we want.

Robert Raines, in his book titled New Life in the Church, said the following:

"The church has accommodated herself to the cultural climate. The church is no longer changing culture, but it is being changed by culture.

The church is usually content to grow in physical nature and in favor with its immediate environment.

The Church becomes the mouthpiece of the people instead of the voice of God. The church, which is meant to be at tension with the customs and traditions of every culture, changes her protective coloring like a chameleon to suit the environment she is in.

And the judgment is clear; the world pays little attention to the church.

The world believes it has tamed and domesticated the church and can keep her busily occupied in cultivating her own garden. The world has pulled the teeth of the church and no longer listens to her enfeebled message."

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Be blessed.


Toby

Hi Toby, one of my specialties is flying off the handle with my responses.
Sometimes those types of responses are aimed at someone specific and they usually know who they are.
ToS tells us not to name people in our responses.

I'm not sure how I would in a very definite sense define legalism.
But I don't have a problem throwing the term around.
I think I understand it but as someone said before, others may define it differently.

I like the responses in this thread. I think we are getting somewhere with room for more discussion.

 

[OhFarouk]

My advocacy of marijuana use is NIL, zero.

I do think that, especially since some states have legalized it, corporations should be free to do medical trials in order to be able to produce effective, safe and cheaper medicines. I don't see why Christians should hide behind pharmaceutical companies who rip people off with their expensive medicine.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

My advocacy of marijuana use is NIL, zero.

I do think that, especially since some states have legalized it, corporations should be free to do medical trials in order to be able to produce effective, safe and cheaper medicines. I don't see why Christians should hide behind pharmaceutical companies who rip people off with their expensive medicine.

Would you explain please?
I don't follow your last statement.

 

[jasoncran]

My advocacy of marijuana use is NIL, zero.

I do think that, especially since some states have legalized it, corporations should be free to do medical trials in order to be able to produce effective, safe and cheaper medicines. I don't see why Christians should hide behind pharmaceutical companies who rip people off with their expensive medicine.

in Colorado, a state that has legalized mj. many have gone to the black market version of mj. its cheaper. go figure. so what did the legalasation solve? nothing? its still criminal to buy pot illegally when the argument was that it would reduce the crime yet. it didn't. the government taxed it as that is what the pro pot types advocated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/02/colorado-exporter-of-illegal-marijuana_n_3697793.html

not exactly what I was told by a cop I trained with last month but the point is made.he also said that people grow illegally so that they don't have to pay the taxes, the same is done with cigarettes, Canada has a problem with us citizens doing this. and also beer. illegal brewery still goes on. all we did is just call the legal brewed stuff taxable and set health standards for it. if you don't follow that its illegal.

 

[tagan]

The church needs 5 things in no particular order.
1: Good worship music ( this includes sound system, and a screen so everyone can sing along)
2: Good / powerful sermons / preacher.
3: After church donuts / lunch
4: Good fellowships / ministries / helpful caring community/love/prayer.
5: God backing the church.

What else does the church need?

 

[OhFarouk]

Would you explain please?
I don't follow your last statement.

I've started another thread about this subject.

 

[Obadiah]

so god doesn't mind if we do pot? pot is less addictive then nicotine, and in some cases less damaging. nicotine while not has strong on the senses as pot but it does affect the body with cancer.where do we stop with that? yes we must be reasonable on the drugs, ie caffeine and such like but nicotine?

I think that's a good subject that might need some revisiting from scripture now that pot is legal in some areas. (Maybe in a new thread? OhFarouk's new thread is about medical trials.) The standard Christian fallback on prohibiting pot has always been that you are breaking the law when you buy or use it. The problem is that lacking specific scripture, it seems rather hypocritical for a Christian to tell the pot smoker he is sinning while the Christian is flying high on his 10th cup of coffee, bottle of Mountain Dew, or smoking his cigarettes. I don't smoke pot myself, but I've always wondered how we can condemn it from scripture. With exception of the legality issue, all of the scripture I've ever seen to condemn pot can be used equally well to condemn moderate and legal use of caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and many other things many of us use without a second thought.

Disclaimer: I'm not intending to violate the TOS, I'm only speaking of the use of pot in areas where it is legal to do so and am only asking us to reconsider what scriptures apply, not encouraging anyone to start using it.