Where/what is mystery Babylon?

[Vic C.]

Believing Israel could possibly be the Harlot doesn't make a person anti-Jew. In fact you have to understand Gods love /hate relationship with Israel to understand why we should always be on the supporting end.
I have saw time and again nations raising their hand against Israel, yet woe to those who dare to do so.
God will use them for his purposes toward Israel, yet woe unto them for their wicked and willing heart.

Amen Destiny. Because I believe Jerusalem sn the City referred to as the Harlot, is NO reflection on how I feel anout the Jews. I like the Jews, work with many of them and find their history and culture fascinating, not to mention they are our Spiritual heritage.

We are comparing apples and oranges however. At the time in Revelation where we see this Harlot, God has yet to deliver his Chosen Ones back to the land intented for them. In this time in Revelation and in Jerusalem, very ungodly people will be gathering there. It is the place where Antichrist will be "setting up camp".

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The above verse doesn't fit Rome at all. It does fit Jerusalem though.

Jerusalem is the only city that fits Biblically, historically, geographically and spiritually.

 

[preterist]

preterist wrote:

She is called the great city

Rev 18:18 And they cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What is like the great city?

Jerusalem is called the great city


And so is Babylon...

Yea, that’s kinda the point.

preterist wrote:

Rev 11:8 And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Which only shows the Two witnesses will be slain in Jerusalem. The verse has nothing to do with Mystery Babylon.

Babylon and Jerusalem are both called the “great cityâ€Â. You must believe there are two “great citiesâ€Â.

preterist wrote:

She is guilty of shedding the blood of the Saints and Prophets

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.


So is Rome...

What OT prophets did Rome kill? Where does scripture mention Rome killing the prophets? Only Jerusalem is accused of this by Jesus and Paul.

preterist wrote:

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Jerusalem /Old Covenant Jews shed the blood of the saints/prophets


The Church has killed more people in its name than the Jews EVER did.

It not talking about “peopleâ€Â, it talking about a specific group of people. You ignore the context.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Mat 23:35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

In these verses, Jesus is condemning the Pharisee's who have corrupted the law. He's not speaking to ALL Jews but a select few.

He lays the blame on all the unbelieving Covenant people throughout their history. Are you telling me the Pharisees killed Able and Zachariah? However the punishment for all those sins would fall upon that generation:

Mat 23:30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

And again I'll point out, the Church is responsible for slaying more people than the Jews EVER did.

Again, you miss the point and the entire context of Babylon and what she represented.

preterist wrote:

1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also have suffered these things by your own countrymen, even as they also by the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also driving us out and they do not please God and being contrary to all men,


Again, here Paul is speaking of the few Jews who were responsible for killing Christ, NOT all Jews in general.

And the prophets. You seem to ignore that.

And, of course, you DO realize Paul and all the Apostles WERE Jews, right?

And your point?

The verses from Luke refer to the conquest of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

You’ve just entered the world of preterism. Boy I wish you would start a thread on that statement.

Since Jesus did not return when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans, Revelation 18 CAN't be refering to the same event.

But He did. That’s why it is referring to the same event and you don’t have to chop up the Olivet Discourse.

Well, the Vatican has alot of loot stashed away and the Pope wears alot of shiny baubles . And many Protestant churchs pride themselves on their ornately adorned churchs as well.

When is the last time a Pope or the Catholic Church killed a prophet? Perhaps I should accuse you of being anti-Catholic?

And all these prophecies were refering to the Babylonian destruction of Jeusalem.

And why did God destroy Jerusalem via the Babylonians?

Well, Revelation 2:1-7, Revelation 2:12-29, Revelation 3:1-6 and Revelation 3:14-22 all descibes the traits of an Apostate church.

You forgot verse 9 in Chapter 2:

Rev 2:9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

You also skipped verse 9 in chapter 3:

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

You also chose not to include this verse:

Rev 3:11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.

Is this all the “proof†you have that Babylon is an apostate Church? Not much.

can't answer your second question since I have no idea what "inspired writer" you are refering to (If you think it is John you are simply nuts.)

Well, since I quoted I Peter I assumed you knew Peter wrote I Peter and not John:


1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

So what “end times†was Peter referring to?

If I want to see a bunch of anti-Jewish propaganda I'll either visit an Al-Queda website or get a Dish and subscribe to Palestinian TV

Or read Matt 23 and the words of Jesus.

They place the 'blame' for Jesus' crucuifxition on ALL Jews not just the few who were responsible.

This shows your ignorance of preterism. If you wish to criticize preterism at least do so honestly. Preterist do not believe “ALL†Jews were responsible. It was only those to whom Jesus was referring in Matt 23, those in Jesus’ generation and their fathers. It is the futurist who says someday 2/3rds of all Jews will be destroyed and those who are left will become Christians. Ask a Jew what he thinks of that scenario. And it is futurist who are paying the way for Jews to return to Jerusalem so that this scenario can happen. And preterism is anti-semetic? :D

There is absolutely no reason to take on an attitude. Also, putting someone on Ignore does nothing but show us you don't care to actually carry on a civil discussion with another.

This is typical Vic. They can’t argue from scripture so they quit. I doubt I am on ignore, he wants to see my response to him. But he will no longer engage me because he can’t refute plain scripture.

Destiny, I think Vic and I would agree that you cannot identify Babylon from reading just Revelation. Revelation is made up of symbols and imagery found throughout the OT. In order to identify Babylon/Harlot you must look in the OT not as futurist do who depend on Jack VanImpe and the daily newspapers.

There is only one entity that can commit harlotry against God and it had to be one that was married to God, only Jerusalem fits this description.


Jer 3:6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that the land was polluted, and she committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Finally a key point in identifying Babylon is found in 2 of the first 3 verses of Revelation:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;


Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[Quasar]

Mystery Babylon the Great

Hi friends,

Consider the following from the late Dr. John Walvoord, former Dean of Dallas Theological Seminary, who had this to say about 'Babylon the Great, Mother of all Prostitutes,' in Rev.17. This is about the one world religion, and has nothing to do with the economic Babylon of Rev.18.


"Of primary importance in the study of Babylon is its relation to religion as unfolded in Revelation 17. In addition to materials given in the Bible itself, ancient accounts indicate that the wife of Nimrod, who founded the city of Babylon, became the head of the so called so-called Babylonian mysteries which consisted of secret religious rites which were developed as a part of the worship of idols in Babylon. She was known by the name of Semiramis and was a high priestess of the idol worship.

According to extrabiblical records which have been preserved, Semiramis gave birth to a son whom she claimed was conceived miraculously. This son, given the name of Tammuz, was considered a savior of his people and was, in effect a false messiah, purported to be the fulfillment of the promise given to Eve.

The legend of the mother and child was incorporated into the religious rites and is repeated in various pagan religions. Idols picturing the mother as the queen of heaven with the babe in her arms are found throughout the ancient world, and countless religious rites were introduced supposedly promising cleansing from sin.

Though the rites which were observed in the Babylonian false religion differed greatly in various localities, there usually was a priestly order which furthered the worship of mother and child, practiced the sprinkling of holy water, and established an order of virgins dedicated to religious prostitution. Tammuz, the son, was said to have been killed by a wild beast and afterward brought back to life, obviously a satanic anticipation of the resurrection of Christ.

In the Scripures themselves, though many of these facts are not mentioned, there are a number of allusions to the conflict of the true faith with this pseudo religion. Ezekiel protests against the ceremony of weeping for Tammuz in Ezekiel 8:14. Jeremiah mentioins the heathen practices of making cakes for the queen of heaven Jer.7:18 and offering incense to the queen of heaven Jer.44:17-19, 25.

The worship of Baal, characteristic of pagan religion in Canaan, was another form of this same mystery religion originating in Babylon. Baal is considered identical to Tammuz. The doctrines of the mystery religions of Babylon seem to have permeated the ancient world, giving rise to countless mystery religions, each with its cult and individual beliefs offering a counterfeit religion and a counterfeit god in opposition to the true God revealed in the Scriptures. Babylon as an evil woman is portrayed in the prophecy of Zechariah 5:1-11 where the woman of verse 7 is described as personifying wickedness in verse 8."

The Babylonian cult eventually made its way to other cities including Pergamos, the site of one of the seven churches of Asia. The chief priests of the Babylonian cult wore crowns in the form of the head of a fish, in recognition of Dagon the fish god, with the title of 'Keeper of the Bridge,' that is, the 'bridge' between man and Satan, imprinted on the crowns.

The Roman equivalent of the title, Pontifex Maximus, was used by the Caesars and later Roman emperors, and was also adopted as the title for the Bishop of Rome. Of the early centuries of the church in Rome, incredible confusion arose; and attempts were made to combine some of the features of the mystery religion of Babylon with the Christian faith, a confusion which has continued down to the present day.
The last stage of counterfeit religion is revealed as it will be in existence in the period before the return of the Lord to earth [Jesus 2nd advent, prior to the end of the tribulation].

It is a sad commentary on contemporary Christendom that it shows an overwhelming desire to return to Rome in spite of Rome's evident apostasy from true biblical Christianity. In fact, modern liberalism has far outdone Rome in its departure from the theology of the early church, thus has little to lose by a return to Romanism. Apostasy, which is seen in its latent form today, will flower in its ultimate form in this future superchurch which will apparently engulf all [so called] Christendom in the period after the rapture of the church."


There is a great deal more if any of you have a desire to pursue the subject further, in Dr. Walvoord's book, 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ.' published by the Moody Press in Chicago.

Your bro in Christ.

Quasar

 

[MrVersatile48]

Just time for timely link:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Ian

 

[Vic C.]

Consider the following from the late Dr. John Walvoord, former Dean of Dallas Theological Seminary, who had this to say about 'Babylon the Great, Mother of all Prostitutes,' in Rev.17. This is about the one world religion, and has nothing to do with the economic Babylon of Rev.18.

I will check out Walvoord's work. He seems to be one of the fairest of all the Pre-Trib writers. Even some Pre-Wrath teaches quote him. Walvoord at least is honest enough to concede at times that all End Times Views, even his, are not 100% correct.

I agree, it is all about a one world religion; one that worships antichrist. This is why I take Daniel 11:45 so seriously

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I honestly believe this is describing Jerusalem.

Antichrist is first going to go after the Woman in Revelation 12. This Woman is "Israel". They will be flocking towards the Holy City, correct? What better place to "ambush" them than in their very own Holy City; the city in which the Temple existed and will again reside. This city:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jesus wasn't crucified in Rome.

There was no Temple in Rome and the Jews would never agree to the building one there.

Also, like I have mentioned many times, the OT has a lot to say about who this Harlot is. The first place we should look for Biblical answers is the Bible itself. Then if the Boble isn't clear *gasp* we look at other historical sources.

Bible first, wouldn't you all agree?

Let me ask a question. For instance, You have no clue about current events and no access to writings on recent history.

You were given nothing but prophetic Scripture and were asked to come to a conclusion as to who this Harot is. Would you be left wanting more evidence or would you be able to answer the question based solely on Scripture?

Now you would be thinking just like someone from the first few centuries, reading the same Scripture as you.

 

[JM]

I will check out Walvoord's work. He seems to be one of the fairest of all the Pre-Trib writers. Even some Pre-Wrath teaches quote him. Walvoord at least is honest enough to concede at times that all End Times Views, even his, are not 100% correct.

Walvoord is very fair, I've read a bunch of work by him. [Still disagree.]

Daniel 11:45
JFB wrote: holy mountain  Jerusalem and Mount Zion. The desolation of the sanctuary by Antiochus, and also the desecration of the consecrated ground round Jerusalem by the idolatrous Roman ensigns, as also by the Mohammedan mosque, and, finally, by the last Antichrist, are referred to. So the last Antichrist is to sit upon “the mount of the congregation†(Isa_14:13), but “shall be brought down to hell†(compare Note, see on Dan_7:26; 2Th_2:8).

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Dr. John Gill wrote: Rev 11:8 - And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,.... Not Jerusalem, which was destroyed when John had this vision, and which will; not be rebuilt at the time it refers to; nor is it ever called the great city, though the city of the great King; however, not in this book, though the new Jerusalem is so called, Rev_21:10; but that can never be designed here; but the city of Rome, or the Roman jurisdiction, the whole empire of the Romish antichrist, which is often called the great city in this book; see Rev_16:19. The city of Rome itself was very large, and the Roman empire still larger, so as to be called the whole world and the antichristian see of Rome has been of great extent. Now as the street of a city denotes a public open place in it, a place of concourse and resort, Pro_1:20, the dead bodies of those witnesses being said to lie here, may design the publicness of their silence, disgrace, and contempt; and that the silencing and degrading them, and depriving them of all privileges, will be known all over the antichristian empire; and that they will be exposed to public ignominy and shame, their persons, their characters, their testimony, their doctrines, their writings, their churches, and families, and all that belong to them: or else this "street" may design some part of the Romish jurisdiction, and it may be Great Britain may be particularly designed; for where should the dead bodies of the witnesses lie, but where they are slain? and where can they be slain, but where they are? and where are they, at least where are there so many as in these islands? It may be objected, that Great Britain is not a part of the see of Rome, does not belong to the jurisdiction of it; to this it may be replied, that in this last war of the beast, the outer court will be given to the Gentiles, the bulk of the reformed churches will fall off to Popery, and their countries again fall into the hands of the pope, and, among the rest, Great Britain. The fears of Dr. Goodwin seem to be too just, and well grounded, that the prophecy in Dan_11:45 respects our island, which speaks of antichrist planting "the tabernacles of his palace between the seas, in the glorious holy mountain", or "the mountain of delight, of holiness". Now where has God such a mountain of delight, or a people that are the darling of his soul, as here? where in all the globe is there such a spot where God has so many saints, so many Holy Ones, as in this island? it may have been truly called a glorious holy mountain, or a mountain of delight; and what place between the seas is there to which these characters can agree, but Great Britain? Here then antichrist will plant the tabernacles of his palace; but it will be but a tabernacle, or tent; it will be but for a short time, as it follows, "yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him", Dan_11:45. Now this great city, in the street of which the bodies of the witnesses will lie exposed, is that

which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt; that is, it is called so in a mystic and allegoric sense, in distinction from the literal sense; see 1Co_10:3; it is called Sodom because of the fulness of bread, plenty and abundance of all outward good things in it; as well as for the pride and idleness of the priests, monks, and friars which swarm in it; and also for the open profaneness and contempt of true and serious religion in it; and particularly for the sin of sodomy, so frequently committed here, with impunity, yea with allowance, and even with commendation. This sin was extolled with praises, as Brightman observes, by John a Casa, archbishop of Beneventum; and was defended in a book, published for that purpose, by one Mutius; and which was allowed by the bulls and letters patent of Pope Julius the Third; and it is called Egypt, because of its tyranny and oppression; as the Egyptians kept the Israelites in bondage, and made them to serve with rigour, and embittered their lives, so the pope, and his Gentiles, or Egyptians, have in a most oppressive and rigorous manner tyrannised over the souls, bodies, and estates of men; and also because of its great idolatry, Egypt being very remarkable for the number of its deities, and the meanness of them; by which the idols and idolatries of the church of Rome may be fitly expressed:

where also our Lord was crucified; that is, in the great city, which is fitly compared to Sodom and Egypt; for Christ was crucified actually in Judea, which was then become a Roman province, and under Pontius Pilate, a Roman governor, and by his order, and suffered a Roman kind of death, crucifixion, and for a crime he was charged with, though a false one, against Caesar the Roman emperor; and Christ has been crucified at Rome itself in his members, who have suffered persecution and death, and even the death of the cross there; and he has been crucified afresh, both by the sins and immoralities of those who have bore the Christian name there, and by the frequent sacrifices of him in the Mass. Moreover, by this periphrasis may be meant Jerusalem; and the sense be, that as the great city, or jurisdiction of Rome, may be spiritually or mystically called Sodom and Egypt, so likewise the place where our Lord was crucified, that is, Jerusalem; and that for this reason, because that as Jerusalem stoned and killed the prophets of the Lord, and upon the inhabitants of it were found all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, so in Rome, in mystical Babylon, will be found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon earth, Mat_23:35. The Alexandrian copy, the Complutensian edition, the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions, read, "where also their Lord was crucified"; and the Arabic version more expressly, "the Lord of these two", i.e. the two witnesses.

I tend to agree with Gill...but I've been wrong before...{ ;-) }

Vic, take a look at what Strong's and Thayer have to say about " where3699 also2532 our2257 Lord2962 was crucified.4717" The Greek seems to agree with the Arabic versions that Gill brings up.

 

[Georges]

Items to consider....

1. Mystery.....A term used as in "Mystery Religion".
2. Babylon.....The place where "Mystery Religion" originated and spread out from.

3. Mystery Religion....Had both trinities and dieing/raising "god-men" in their beliefs (depending on the geographic area).
4. Sad to say Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism, Mystery Religion, and Gnosticism....that would constitute a "harlot"...Jesus warns the Church in Rev to return to Judaism...

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

5. The Harlot moves from the city of 7 hills (my opinion Rome) to the most holy place in the world (Jerusalem). This may be a military/alliance move in appearence to protect Israel. This is only natural...Once he is there, the future "False Messiah" will claim to be Christ. The future "False Messiah" will claim to be the "true Messiah", but since he probably will be a "Paulinist Christian" he will naturally be aligned with the Mystery/Gnostic/Judaic cult that Christianity has become...thus the Mystery Babylon.

 

[JM]

4. Sad to say Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism, Mystery Religion, and Gnosticism....that would constitute a "harlot"...Jesus warns the Church in Rev to return to Judaism...

This is a classic example of Ebonite, anti-Gentile rhetoric. It's odd how heresies keep getting recycled.

 

[destiny]

Vic, I am under the impression that the prophecies given to John in the book of Revelation are in present tense.
I feel that Israel fits the role of the harlot better than any other explanation i've seen, but will you try to adjust this one tweak I have as to how this verse fits as being Israel:

Revelation 18:3
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

 

[Georges]

4. Sad to say Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism, Mystery Religion, and Gnosticism....that would constitute a "harlot"...Jesus warns the Church in Rev to return to Judaism...

This is a classic example of Ebonite, anti-Gentile rhetoric. It's odd how heresies keep getting recycled.

JM.....heresies?...That only depends on what side of the fence you stand....I think I'm in line by saying that the doctrine of the trinity is a heresy....it all depends on perspective....

BTW, the Ebonites were not anti-Gentile...they (as did the Jews) gladly accepted Godfearers and Proselytes....to say that the Jews were anti-Gentile is historically inaccurate.

and, it can't be disputed that Paul uses Gnostic/Mystery terminology with a base of Judaism (to give his creation an air of authenticity).

 

[Georges]

Vic, I am under the impression that the prophecies given to John in the book of Revelation are in present tense.
I feel that Israel fits the role of the harlot better than any other explanation i've seen, but will you try to adjust this one tweak I have as to how this verse fits as being Israel:

Revelation 18:3
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Sorry for jumping in .....Pauline Christianity fits the description better than any....Since the religion of the Messianic kingdom will be Torah based, that by default makes Pauline Christianity the best candidate as the Harlot...Pauline Christianity is the only Judaistic based religion that has strayed from the Torah....even calling it obsolete.

 

[Vic C.]

LOL, Jason, I am shocked that you would forego a TR understanding of Revelation 11:8 . Both the YLT and the LITV agree with the KJ on this. Besides, even if it did say “where also their Lord was crucified†we are talking about the two witnesses, correct? They are preaching about Jesus and that tells me their Lord is our Lord; Jesus. Hey I could be wrong too.

Plus, I don’t make any distinction between the Great City in Revelation 11:8, Revelation 21:10 and other references in Revelation. All I see is the Great City in Revelation 21:10 is now referred to as New Jerusalem. (as opposed to the old, corrupt Jerusalem, otherwise, why is it new?)

I’m not quite grasping what Gill is trying to convey. He started talking about islands and Great Britain and well, he lost me, which is easy to do sometimes.

5. The Harlot moves from the city of 7 hills (my opinion Rome) to the most holy place in the world (Jerusalem).

George, I’m confused (again). Revelation refers to the Harlot AS a city. Are you suggesting the City is moved from one place to another?

Destiny, I will search the OT for references to your question. I’m sure I have in my notes somewhere verses that allude to what is said in Revelation 18:3.

No offense people, but I get the feeling my “Bible First†comment doesn’t hold much water. Oh well. I’ll ask the question again:

Let me ask a question. For instance, You have no clue about current events and no access to writings on recent history.

You were given nothing but prophetic Scripture and were asked to come to a conclusion as to who this Harot is. Would you be left wanting more evidence or would you be able to answer the question based solely on Scripture?

I guess this is a debate thread after all. LOL

 

[JM]

4. Sad to say Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism, Mystery Religion, and Gnosticism....that would constitute a "harlot"...Jesus warns the Church in Rev to return to Judaism...

This is a classic example of Ebonite, anti-Gentile rhetoric. It's odd how heresies keep getting recycled.

JM.....heresies?...That only depends on what side of the fence you stand....I think I'm in line by saying that the doctrine of the trinity is a heresy....it all depends on perspective....

Yes, it does.

BTW, the Ebonites were not anti-Gentile...they (as did the Jews) gladly accepted Godfearers and Proselytes....to say that the Jews were anti-Gentile is historically inaccurate.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

and, it can't be disputed that Paul uses Gnostic/Mystery terminology with a base of Judaism (to give his creation an air of authenticity).

As for the view from this side of the fence... we find Abraham’s justification being used by Paul in Romans 4 to illustrate God’s pattern for saving all believers in all ages. From Gen. 12 to Rev. we find the story of Abraham’s seed in the world, the Gospel is the fulfillment of the Covenant made with Abraham.

Galatians 3:7 = all who have faith are Abraham’s children, we are blessed with Abraham v.9 because of this faith and Christ died so this blessing might come onto the gentiles v. 14.

Abraham experienced the justification of faith in the promise of the Gospel (Gal. 3:6-9, 18), we experience the same justification because we are Abraham’s true seed (Gal. 3:29). The idea of historic redemption is related to “Abraham and his seed,†only Christ is found in both the Old and New Testaments linking salvation to the seed.

G, your view isn't much different then the dispensational view, both of you believe the physical seed are Abraham’s seed. The dispey claims Israel is still in existence but set aside, and from what I've read of your posts, you claim the physical children of Isreal are Abraham’s seed. Abraham has four distinct seeds: 1. natural seed/progeny, 2. special seed/Jacob chosen not Esau for God’s purposes in redemption, 3. spiritual seed, 4. unique seed which is Christ. The Jew had many advantages according to the strict “preaching†of the Gospel, but their spiritual station before God didn’t change based upon this and just as a child of a believer today shares in the teaching of the Gospel the status remains the same until the spiritual rebirth happens...the Law is Spiritual Paul wrote...it's a matter of the Heart...which Jesus also taught when He spoke of looking on another with lust in your HEART! The Mosaic covenant was a death sentence (II. Cor 3:6-9 and Rom. 7:9,10) to the people described in Deut. 29:4 and Heb. 3:18 - 4:2. This covenant is Gracious but in purpose, to show this prideful people their sin and pride, and then to kill it.

The believer under the New Covenant is in a better position because of what Christ did; we have eternal security for one example. The obligations of the New Covenant are met for sure (Heb. 7:22), and the New Covenant community is guarantee with the promise, that the Holy Ghost will work obedience within the believer. The Mosaic Covenant contains “IF’s.†The idea the author is making is simply this, the covenant was given to Moses to show how far from God they were. If they truly loved God they’d keep His commands but they didn’t and so were set aside with the N.C.

The personal and spiritual indwelling by God was not done in the O.T. believer as it is done today, Israel was never the “Temple of God†as the Church today is specifically designated...if we accepted your view Georges, the New Covenant wouldn't exist. The work of Christ would be replaced with types and shadows that point to Christ. It doesn't make sense.

Peace,

jm
Notes taken from Abraham's Four Seeds.

 

[Vic C.]

Guys, guys, it's ok that we debate in this thread, but the subject of your debate isn't exactly inline with the subject at hand.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[JM]

Rome had jurisdiction over Jerusalem, therefor Jerusalem was a Roman province and that means Jerusalem was a part of the Roman Empire. I vote Rome Mystery Babylon.

I think in this discussion about Rev 11 we are 'jumping the gun' in a number of respects. (I shall assume we have left the discussion of when Rev was written, and whether it was written before or after the book of Jude. [One note: you might want to check Smith's Bible Dictionary regarding when Jude, the half-brother of Jesus, died, on the issue of extra-scriptural material on this topic.])

Here are some preliminary questions to a discussion of Rev 11:

1. Is typological language employed in scriptural prophecy in general?

2. Is typological language employed in the book of Rev?

3. Is typological language employed in Rev 11?

4. When we detect typological language, ought we to first identify the type,
and then the anti-type?

5. What rules should we use to determine an anti-type, having already identified the type?


Let me give the example of the prophecy concerning "David" in Ezekiel. Now IMO such is typological language. The type is the historic David, father of
Solomon, son of Jesse. But the anti-type is Jesus Christ. And I could explain
various reasons why David was a type for Christ.

It would be silly arguing whether the "David" in Ezekiel referred to the
historic David **or** Jesus Christ, because the answer is both.


Now I would ask concerning Rev 11, when it speaks of "the temple", "the altar", "the candlesticks", "the place where Christ was killed", etc. Is this
typological language? What are the types? After we have identified the types
for each of these terms (**if** we can agree this is typological language),
then let's try to identify the anti-types.


- Parnell McCarter

 

[Georges]

4. Sad to say Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism, Mystery Religion, and Gnosticism....that would constitute a "harlot"...Jesus warns the Church in Rev to return to Judaism...

This is a classic example of Ebonite, anti-Gentile rhetoric. It's odd how heresies keep getting recycled.

JM.....heresies?...That only depends on what side of the fence you stand....I think I'm in line by saying that the doctrine of the trinity is a heresy....it all depends on perspective....

Yes, it does.

BTW, the Ebonites were not anti-Gentile...they (as did the Jews) gladly accepted Godfearers and Proselytes....to say that the Jews were anti-Gentile is historically inaccurate.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Yes..I'm aware of the verse....still the Jews at that time had an aggresive proselyte program as witnessed to by the many God Fearers that Paul preached to in Asia Minor. http://www.Jewishencyclopedia.com article on "Proselytes" will give more info on the Jewish mindset of proselyting. Now what you are introducing is the "Man made Law" surrounding the Torah that was impossible to keep.


[quote:0691c]and, it can't be disputed that Paul uses Gnostic/Mystery terminology with a base of Judaism (to give his creation an air of authenticity).

As for the view from this side of the fence... we find Abraham’s justification being used by Paul in Romans 4 to illustrate God’s pattern for saving all believers in all ages. From Gen. 12 to Rev. we find the story of Abraham’s seed in the world, the Gospel is the fulfillment of the Covenant made with Abraham.

But what was Abraham's test? Faith and works in that he sacrificed, even to the point of sacrificing his Son....and that wasn't even Torah Law. Abraham was a balance of faith and works.

Galatians 3:7 = all who have faith are Abraham’s children, we are blessed with Abraham v.9 because of this faith and Christ died so this blessing might come onto the gentiles v. 14.

Abraham experienced the justification of faith in the promise of the Gospel (Gal. 3:6-9, 18), we experience the same justification because we are Abraham’s true seed (Gal. 3:29).

Any and all who abide by God's rules are justified....

The idea of historic redemption is related to “Abraham and his seed,†only Christ is found in both the Old and New Testaments linking salvation to the seed.

Faith and works in a God fearing manner is a man's justification.

G, your view isn't much different then the dispensational view, both of you believe the physical seed are Abraham’s seed.

Abraham was justified, but he wasn't a Jew, he was a Gentile. So if Abraham can be justified by faith and works, so can any man. God just gave the Israelites the privilege to be the example (or supposed to be) of righteous living (compared to the other nations).

The dispey claims Israel is still in existence but set aside, and from what I've read of your posts, you claim the physical children of Isreal are Abraham’s seed.

Yes, at this time I think that is correct.

Abraham has four distinct seeds: 1. natural seed/progeny,
2. special seed/Jacob chosen not Esau for God’s purposes in redemption, 3. spiritual seed, 4. unique seed which is Christ. The Jew had many advantages according to the strict “preaching†of the Gospel, but their spiritual station before God didn’t change based upon this and just as a child of a believer today shares in the teaching of the Gospel the status remains the same until the spiritual rebirth happens...the Law is Spiritual Paul wrote...it's a matter of the Heart...which Jesus also taught when He spoke of looking on another with lust in your HEART!

Can't dispute the above...

The Mosaic covenant was a death sentence (II. Cor 3:6-9 and Rom. 7:9,10) to the people described in Deut. 29:4 and Heb. 3:18 - 4:2. This covenant is Gracious but in purpose, to show this prideful people their sin and pride, and then to kill it.

Here is where you may be error. Consider this, the covenent is not to show prideful people their sin...that's Paulinist propaganda. The covenent is simply to show people how to live righteously....the covenant always provided a way for atoning for sin. If the covenant was only to show people that they sinned, why would it bother providing the necessary atonement?

The believer under the New Covenant is in a better position because of what Christ did; we have eternal security for one example.


Only if we continue (striving) to do God's will. Torah obedience with Christ in mind as the perfect example of how to do so....salvation is not garauteed..one can become saved and lose it through sin without repentence...

The obligations of the New Covenant are met for sure (Heb. 7:22), and the New Covenant community is guarantee with the promise, that the Holy Ghost will work obedience within the believer.

The Mosaic Covenant contains “IF’s.â€Â

Yeah....it's a covenant...covenants are generally all "if you do this, I will do that.." etc. Pretty simple, "if you sin, and you repent, I'll forgive you". That's the "deadly Mosaic Covenant".

The idea the author is making is simply this, the covenant was given to Moses to show how far from God they were.

That may be the author's idea, but that isn't how it works...It's not to show us how far we are...it's there to show us how to obtain righteousness...it's as simple as that.


If they truly loved God they’d keep His commands but they didn’t and so were set aside with the N.C.

Well my dispey side says they are being punished and will be remembered.

The personal and spiritual indwelling by God was not done in the O.T. believer as it is done today, Israel was never the “Temple of God†as the Church today is specifically designated...if we accepted your view Georges, the New Covenant wouldn't exist.

The New Covenant doesn't exist (in full) yet...it's quite clear that will not happen until the Messianic Kingdom, until then we continue in an overlap state...Old not yet passed, New not fully realized. Here now, but not yet.

The work of Christ would be replaced with types and shadows that point to Christ. It doesn't make sense.

It points to both comings...

Peace,

jm
Notes taken from Abraham's Four Seeds.[/quote:0691c]

JM...out of respect to Vic's request I will rebut...I think it would be an interesting continuance but what thread? Anyway, last on this on this thread. After this I'll try and stay on the topic line....I was going to post the reply as a PM but decided not to...Me in Red as usual.

 

[Vic C.]

Rome had jurisdiction over Jerusalem, therefor Jerusalem was a Roman province and that means Jerusalem was a part of the Roman Empire. I vote Rome Mystery Babylon.

It is a It is a convincing argument, I agree, but I;m still not convinced personally. That's just me. :-D

I don't believe the historic Daniel is a silly argument. Ezekiel 34:23 could very well be a Messianic passage, I'm not sure. It could be typological, it could be lireral, or historical. I did post in some detail a while back explaining my views on the dual rule of David/Jesus in the Millennium. Can't get to my notes or links on my other PC right now. I also am having some trouble searching our forums for poasts of mine.

Anyways, back to the Harlot. (no pun intended)

Edited to include:

I found it! My post on Ezekiel and Zechariah.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... iah#223076

 

[JM]

Excellent link and great reminder! The posts I made in that thread were pure dispey thinking...it could've been written by an Ebonite.

 

[Orates]

Mystery of Mystery Babylon No Longer a Mystery

Clues:

Mystery Babylon is the Headquarters for a World Government. (Hint: think UN)
It is also an economic center that controls and influences the world. (Hint: think Madison Avenue)
Christians are told to leave the city before the judgments on it.
It is a major shipping port and visible from the sea.
It is not in Iraq.
It has nothing to do with 7 hills (the 7 "mountains" are seven empires making up the composite endtimes Beast Empire out of the sea).
It is a particular city- not a nation or empire.
And it will be destroyed and broken into three parts.
Its number adds to 666 using the A=6. B=12, C=18 etc. 6 based Alpha-Numeric Code.

Answer Below:

















New York City

Orates 2006

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Mystery of Mystery Babylon No Longer a Mystery

Clues:

Mystery Babylon is the Headquarters for a World Government. (Hint: think UN)
It is also an economic center that controls and influences the world. (Hint: think Madison Avenue)
Christians are told to leave the city before the judgments on it.
It is a major shipping port and visible from the sea.
It is not in Iraq.
It has nothing to do with 7 hills (the 7 "mountains" are seven empires making up the composite endtimes Beast Empire out of the sea).
It is a particular city- not a nation or empire.
And it will be destroyed and broken into three parts.
Its number adds to 666 using the A=6. B=12, C=18 etc. 6 based Alpha-Numeric Code.

Answer Below:




New York City

Orates 2006

Thanks for the comments, Orates. My take of this is:

Mystery Babylon is the Headquarters for a World Government. (Hint: think UN)

While many people believe political world domination is the ultimate goal of Antichrist, his ultimate goal is religious world domination. Antichrist wants everyone to worship him.

It is also an economic center that controls and influences the world. (Hint: think Madison Avenue)

I believe it is the Jews who will be given control of commerce. They are great at this.

Christians are told to leave the city before the judgments on it.

Could you elaborate on that? Where in the Bible does it say Christians and Christians only...?

It is a major shipping port and visible from the sea.

I don't recall anything about a shipping port. Also, the Bible mentions the sea(s) are visible from the city.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There are two seas visible from Jerusalem.

It is not in Iraq.

Agreed.

It has nothing to do with 7 hills (the 7 "mountains" are seven empires making up the composite endtimes Beast Empire out of the sea).

Lets look at it from a historical perspective. Israel (and Jerusalem) has been under the control of seven empires in the past. (in one way or another) They are:

Egypt
Asseria
Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome
and the seventh, which is not mentioned because it was a future empire from the time Revelation was written, but I believe it to be Nazi Germany.

The seven hills that Jerusalem is built on and the seven empires who controled "Israel" in the past are more than just a coincidence.

It is a particular city- not a nation or empire.

Agreed.

And it will be destroyed and broken into three parts.

Again, from a historical persprctive. The one city I know of that has sort of been divided into three is Jerusalem. The Jews, Christians and Muslims each already have a "piece" of the City. What better way to woo the people and bring on a false sense of peace, than to equally divide up the Great, Holy City.

Its number adds to 666 using the A=6. B=12, C=18 etc. 6 based Alpha-Numeric Code.

The "666" number is best used to confirm and not determine. Also, the number is the number of the Beast, not the Harlot, or Whore. So, it has little to do with determining the Whore.

Again, keep in mind the real goal, the False Messiah is interested in World worship:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

World dominance is not his goal; Daniel confirms this:

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

He will only be in control of ten kings (or kingdoms) and really only subdues three of the ten. That's far from world political dominance.

This is the way Scripture has been revealed to me.

Peace,
Vic