which is the true christian faith.

[DavidLee]

If...you are saying that a simple mental belief that Jesus is the Christ, ALONE, is all that is required to gain admission through the pearly gates, then please, respond with interpretations of John 8:51, and John 14:15, that will support such a position.

First believe, then act.

“So speak and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.â€Â
(James 2:12-13 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

Mercy triumphs, whether from us or from God.

“but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.†(John 20:31 NASB)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;†(Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

Belief is all that is required.

If the above does happen to be what you believe, you might ought to consider wrestling with the passage below, as well.

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Believing is, indeed, just as you said, the starting point, but obedience is required of us as well.

No. Belief only is required. Obedience is evidence of belief.
James is talking to people who say they believe, but do not, based on the lack of evidence of belief.

“If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,†and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?†(James 2:15-16 NASB)

If one says they believe but don't act like one who believes, then they should examine themselves and their supposed faith.

 

[francisdesales]

If each and every position that you hold on the scriptures isn't bound with legalism itself, then how can you point your finger at another's interpretations.

If your views truly aren't legalistic, then you should accept anyone's interpretations as being just as valid as yours, right?

Your views are HIGHLY legalistic!

Pogo,

Take a step back and take a look at the BIG picture. Why did God create? Why did God send His Son to save us? Why does God desire that man respond to His gifts?

Does the wearing of a covering for women advance this notion for all men of all time?

Paul appears to be making a statement for a particular community in time and place, not a universal moral law or teaching that moves us into closer union with our purpose and goal in life...

I will let you judge that.

Regards

 

[turnorburn]

Was it something I said, no one replied to my post :

I see it just like this, if you understand this your home free..
from [John chapter 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life]

 

[sheshisown]

Was it something I said, no one replied to my post :

I see it just like this, if you understand this your home free..
from [John chapter 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life]

Hi Tob~

Actually, I would a add that you not only hit the scripture that addresses the concerns of the question being asked, but it also includes the portion required for understanding while excluding parts that are not necessary. Also~ I appreciate as an interested reader (not commenting~) that it seeks to draw the other posters back on subject. :D

The simplicity of the Word is AWESOME! The Father draws us to Christ, gives us eyes to see the Son of God, each who believes will come to Jesus recieve Him and be raised on the last day into everlasting life!

For Jesus perfectly called those the Father had ordained to be taught by God.

It is by faith we have heard the truth and recieved salvation~ and also by faith we will learn of the Father in coming to Jesus continually. Therefore, in that day we will see the Father, for we are the children of God.

Finally, we are Home Freebecause we have trusted in the power of the Spirit within us to teach us all things~ like . . . which is the true Christian faith for instance . . . :fadein: I like the way God says it best. bonnie

 

[Pogo]

By vic C. -

OK, Pogo, I believe Joe (Francis) is pointing out that Paul had some unique issues with the congregation in Corinth and had to deal with them, their culture and their "bad" habits and customs accordingly.

By Francis –

Pogo,

Take a step back and take a look at the BIG picture. Why did God create? Why did God send His Son to save us? Why does God desire that man respond to His gifts?

Does the wearing of a covering for women advance this notion for all men of all time?

Paul appears to be making a statement for a particular community in time and place, not a universal moral law or teaching that moves us into closer union with our purpose and goal in life...

I will let you judge that.

Vic and Francis –

I’m sorry but I don’t understand why anyone would say these things.

Are not all of the scriptures truly timeless universal moral law, fully binding and applicable to them, then, and us, now?

Hmmmm…I’ve just checked the covers on several of my Bibles, both on the outside and in, and I don’t seem to be able to find an ‘expiration’ or a ‘use by’ date on any of them!

Please, make a case for these views of yours!

turnorburn and DavidLee –

I’m sure that there are hundreds of threads here, debating these very same positions of yours. I see no benefit to adding another one to the pile.

But, since your interpretations of your passages are in conflict with the passages that I posted, if you will point out the flaws in my interpretations of my passages, then, I will offer a response.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[BobRyan]

turnorburn -

Forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that all one has to do, to guarantee themselves a place in heaven, is to just have a simple mental belief that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 8:51 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

James 2 says "The Devils believe and tremble"

Jesus said in Matt 7 "NOT everyone who SAYS LORD Lord will ENTER heaven but he who DOES the Will of My Father"

having said that --

IF by "belief" you mean "submit to" if you mean the Rev 3 concept of "hear and OPEN the DOOR" then that person is THEN Born-again -- they are THEN SAVED -- they are THEN Justified and THEN at that same time that they choose to open that door - justified. NOT first doing works of righteousness but rather by simply accepting Christ "for with the HEART you believe and with the mouth confess resulting in Salvation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The best approach (given that you have already discovered that the RCC is at about the 60% error status) is to pick one of your non-RC denominations that "most closely" fits what you find to be "true and reliable" in scripture and start attending. THEN as you find a group that is even MORE accurate in their teaching -- go there.

Clearly, that is one way to do it - set yourself up as the infallible judge on what God has revealed and what He means in Scriptures and Apostolic teaching. Become a "Church" onto oneself.

OR, one could admit that they are not perfect in discerning such things and rather find the organization that Christ built upon earth that He promised would be guided by the Truth, the Church. Where is this Church? With that historically established, one could rely on their claim to be led by God rather than thinking God leads you vs. the God who leads the Southern Baptists, vs. the God who leads the Assembly of God people, vs. the God who leads the Lutherans, etc...

you open with the suggestion that the PERSON should not set themselves up to judge -- then in your solution You are still asking the PERSON to judge as to which group to select only you argue that first we should ignore the bible and try to find the true church by sifting through all the schisms and spits and multipope wars and laws about exterminating dissenters as in the case of Lateran IV -- all of the twists and turns of history trying to find the right sliver.

Seems like you are still leaving it to the judgment of the person to sift it out -- only asking them to go "the long way around".

I am simply saying that given that he has made progress to this point - press forward.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. The "immaculate conception" is a made up story about the "Birth of Mary" (an event not recorded in scripture) it is not a story about the Birth of Jesus. It is simply a story that for Mary to be the sinless being that was to give birth to Jesus -- then her mother (a sinful woman) had to have an "immaculate conception" where a sinFUL being gave birth to a sinLESS person (Mary in the RC story).

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is based upon reflection of Apostolic teachings and Scriptures. It is not a "story", since such things are not visible to the senses. It's not like Mary was glowing coming out of the womb and this was related to her family and friends. It is a statement by the Church that speaks about the Church and Christ Himself.

I am not saying this to discuss it further or argue about its validity - since Catholic doctrines seem to bring about thread locking rather quickly. Just a correction to your correction.

Regards

I noticed the lack of a Bible text to sustain the point of that specific doctrine in that rendition of yours above.

I think the other readers will notice that as well.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[turnorburn]

Was it something I said, no one replied to my post :

I see it just like this, if you understand this your home free..
from [John chapter 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life]

Hi Tob~

Actually, I would a add that you not only hit the scripture that addresses the concerns of the question being asked, but it also includes the portion required for understanding while excluding parts that are not necessary. Also~ I appreciate as an interested reader (not commenting~) that it seeks to draw the other posters back on subject. :D

The simplicity of the Word is AWESOME! The Father draws us to Christ, gives us eyes to see the Son of God, each who believes will come to Jesus recieve Him and be raised on the last day into everlasting life!

For Jesus perfectly called those the Father had ordained to be taught by God.

It is by faith we have heard the truth and recieved salvation~ and also by faith we will learn of the Father in coming to Jesus continually. Therefore, in that day we will see the Father, for we are the children of God.

Finally, we are Home Freebecause we have trusted in the power of the Spirit within us to teach us all things~ like . . . which is the true Christian faith for instance . . . :fadein: I like the way God says it best. bonnie

Amen!

 

[turnorburn]

This is what I mean Bob, I John 4:Test the Spirits 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

turnorburn -

Forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that all one has to do, to guarantee themselves a place in heaven, is to just have a simple mental belief that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 8:51 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

James 2 says "The Devils believe and tremble"

Jesus said in Matt 7 "NOT everyone who SAYS LORD Lord will ENTER heaven but he who DOES the Will of My Father"

having said that --

IF by "belief" you mean "submit to" if you mean the Rev 3 concept of "hear and OPEN the DOOR" then that person is THEN Born-again -- they are THEN SAVED -- they are THEN Justified and THEN at that same time that they choose to open that door - justified. NOT first doing works of righteousness but rather by simply accepting Christ "for with the HEART you believe and with the mouth confess resulting in Salvation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Pogo]

BobRyan -

You said...

IF by "belief" you mean "submit to" if you mean the Rev 3 concept of "hear and OPEN the DOOR" then that person is THEN Born-again -- they are THEN SAVED -- they are THEN Justified and THEN at that same time that they choose to open that door - justified. NOT first doing works of righteousness but rather by simply accepting Christ "for with the HEART you believe and with the mouth confess resulting in Salvation".

I say...AMEN!!!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Pogo]

By DavidLee –

"Belief is all that is required."

"No. Belief only is required. Obedience is evidence of belief.
James is talking to people who say they believe, but do not, based on the lack of evidence of belief."

"If one says they believe but don't act like one who believes, then they should examine themselves and their supposed faith."

David –

I’m somewhat confused by your responses above.

You seem to be saying, on the one hand, that belief ONLY is required for salvation.

And, then also, you say that obedience is evidence of belief...which, of course, is true.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but, somehow, I get the feeling that what you are really saying is that obedience, though nice, is not absolutely necessary.

When we are talking about believing, are we not talking about faith?

James 2:14 KJV
(14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Clearly, the passage above shows that such a statement as, "Belief is all that is required.", is in error!

Also, I must disagree with your position on James 2:17. The devils that James is talking about didn’t just BELIEVE that Jesus was the Son of God, they KNEW that Jesus was the Son of God!

Matthew 8:29 KJV
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

James is saying that believing is not really believing, unless you are also obeying!

And, most certainly, we are not saved by our works (obedience) alone, either.

We are not saved by any ONE thing alone.

We are saved by a combination of the free gift of God’s grace to us, our faith (belief) that Jesus is the one, true, Son of God, and our obedience to the commands of Jesus.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[DavidLee]

David –

I’m somewhat confused by your responses above.

You seem to be saying, on the one hand, that belief ONLY is required for salvation.

And, then also, you say that obedience is evidence of belief...which, of course, is true.

Yes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but, somehow, I get the feeling that what you are really saying is that obedience, though nice, is not absolutely necessary.

Obedience is not criteria for salvation. One cannot obey without continued belief.

When we are talking about believing, are we not talking about faith?

Yes.

James 2:14 KJV
(14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

It's not genuine faith if it does not produce good works.

Clearly, the passage above shows that such a statement as, "Belief is all that is required.", is in error!

Genuine belief. Not a simple verbal acknowledgement.

Also, I must disagree with your position on James 2:17. The devils that James is talking about didn’t just BELIEVE that Jesus was the Son of God, they KNEW that Jesus was the Son of God!

I agree, but don't follow...
He's saying that while they say they believe, they really don't. If they did truly believe then they would be different.

James is saying that believing is not really believing, unless you are also obeying!

Essentially, yes.

And, most certainly, we are not saved by our works (obedience) alone, either.

Yes.

We are not saved by any ONE thing alone.

Wrong. Faith saves us. This should be apparent from the many scriptures that state this explicitly.

“Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.â€Â†(Romans 9:32-33 NASB)

We are saved by a combination of the free gift of God’s grace to us, our faith (belief) that Jesus is the one, true, Son of God, and our obedience to the commands of Jesus.

No. There is a distinction between obedience observed, and obedience required.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.â€Â
(Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB)

Only then...

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.â€Â
(Ephesians 2:10 NASB)

And this does not change our relationship with Christ. It is evidence of our relationship with Christ.

In Christ,

Pogo

Amen.

 

[Vic C.]

Vic and Francis –

I’m sorry but I don’t understand why anyone would say these things.

Are not all of the scriptures truly timeless universal moral law, fully binding and applicable to them, then, and us, now?

Hmmmm…I’ve just checked the covers on several of my Bibles, both on the outside and in, and I don’t seem to be able to find an ‘expiration’ or a ‘use by’ date on any of them!

Please, make a case for these views of yours!

Do we do this?

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Do we do this?

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Anyone reading the Bible in a literalistic manner would indeed see these as binding, no? Surely, you can see the error in this. But, when one reads the Bible in a more literal way, they would take into consideration historical and cultural events and incorporate them into their understanding of the passage. Do you understand the cultural significance of a head covering for a female in the first century?

Instead of me trying to put it in my own words, allow me to use an excerpt from Apologeticspress.com:

For example, some have concluded that God wants women to wear head-coverings when they worship in the presence of men. They believe this conclusion follows from the teaching of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. However, the wearing of a veil in Corinth conveyed a meaning within Graeco-Roman culture that is not conveyed in American culture. It was a cultural phenomenon (“judge in yourselvesâ€Ââ€â€vs. 13). To them, the veil symbolized a woman’s submission to male authority (vs. 10). The removal of the veil symbolized a woman’s rejection of male authority, and was equivalent to the shameful practice of shaving the headâ€â€an act done by women of ill-repute (vs. 5-6). Since the symbolism of the veil in Corinthian culture was in harmony with the abiding principle of female submission to male leadership, Corinthian Christians were admonished to conform to the cultural practice.

The application of this injunction is that Christians, who find themselves in cultures today where a particular cultural symbol undergirds an abiding biblical principle, should conform to that cultural propriety. Head coverings have no such significance in American culture, and vary throughout the world (cf. Genesis 24:65; 29:25; 38:14-15; Song of Solomon 4:1,3; 6:7). If Paul intended for veils to be enjoined upon all Christian women in all cultures for all time, then three conclusions follow: a hat is no substitute; veils must be worn outside the worship assembly as well; and those who refuse must be urged to shave their heads.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2322

It was an issue between Paul and the believers withing the Corinth culture.

 

[lovely]

First off... Hi Tina! "Lovely" to see you posting again. I miss ya! :D

Hi back at you, Vic. "Lovely" to be back posting. I missed you too. It is by God's healing that I am posting again...but you know that. Also, school is out for a few weeks, and until I have to get prepared for next year I have the time to be on...plus it's haying season which means I am home alone till it's all laid up...nothing can interrupt getting the hay, but rain. :-D The Lord bless you, Vic.

 

[francisdesales]

I’m sorry but I don’t understand why anyone would say these things.

Are not all of the scriptures truly timeless universal moral law, fully binding and applicable to them, then, and us, now?

No. Everything in Scriptures are not "timeless universal moral laws". Jesus Himself states this when He discusses the idea of divorce. Polygamy, also, is another example of God revealing Himself gradually to mankind, taking into account where man is at.

Or do you believe men should have several wives?

Hmmmm…I’ve just checked the covers on several of my Bibles, both on the outside and in, and I don’t seem to be able to find an ‘expiration’ or a ‘use by’ date on any of them!

Nor do I find anything in Scriptures that tell me anything about the expiration of oral traditions taught by Paul, but over and over, I am told about sola scriptura... The Church is the interpreter of God's Word - such as in Mat 18:16-17. The Church has told us that Paul's advice to cover the heads of women at Mass is not a command, but advice. One is free to take up this devotion - or not.

Another example of the Church's rule is not always meant to be "universal and for all time" is the example of the first Council held at Jerusalme, where we see James discussing the preparation of meats. Again, an interim order to account for weak Judeo-Christians and not for the universal Church of all time.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

you open with the suggestion that the PERSON should not set themselves up to judge -- then in your solution You are still asking the PERSON to judge as to which group to select only you argue that first we should ignore the bible and try to find the true church by sifting through all the schisms and spits and multipope wars and laws about exterminating dissenters as in the case of Lateran IV -- all of the twists and turns of history trying to find the right sliver.

Who cares about all of that? All smoke screens, akin to disclaiming Christianity because all but one Apostle stood under the cross while one betrayed Jesus and another (at least one) denied knowing Him. If we judge Christianity entirely on the followers, then we should bolt for the door, because the Church is full of sinners...

Does it mean Jesus was lying when He said that He would guide the Church to truth? Was Paul lying when HE said that the Church is the pilar and foundation of the Truth? Certainly, some Catholics have not lived up to the high standards that Christ set for His leaders. They were men. But in the end, the Truth remains despite all of what you said above. Find the visible Church Christ established, and that is good enough.

Unless you don't believe Jesus had the ability or intent to protect His Church from error on such matters?

I leave for vacation soon, so forgive me if I don't respond for awhile.

Regards

 

[freeway]

Hey guys and gals... a lot of great posting going on about this subject, some makes me just say WOW!!! and some wow? To me its not so much the demomions that worry me we all have different ideas about what need to to be done for salvation. Because after all it hat not the heart of the issue, salvation and to live eternity with Christ..
If I may give my two cents worth...
first we all know :: "all have come short of the glory of God, and If you break even just one of the Ten Commandments you have broken them all in the sight of God...

So how do we obtain eternal life.. lets ask Jesus....
Here Jesus is talking about Judgment day..
Matthew:
7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ 7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!

Jesus said we must do the will of the Father, I mean what would you or could you say to Jesus then...knowing your next stop for eternity is hell
So if we are to be doing the will of the Father in heaven,,, then by all means what is His will???
John:
6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds(will) God requires?†6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed (will)God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.†(ibid)

whom did God send????? we Christians know that, but if you don't just in case,,,,

John:
6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life"

and here Jesus gives them the answer to the will of the Father in Heaven....this is what we must do...

6:39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.( this is Jesus's part.. do you think He can handle the job.... this is why I'm a OSAS)
6:40 For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.â€Â
(this is our part belief.... then Jesus finishes with our resurrections... PRAISE HIM)

hope this help...................freeway 8-) 8-)

 

[cisco19]

As to corruption, that is a matter of personal opinion. A more careful study of the development of doctrine (it is quite obvious even in Scriptures) shows not corruption but a more refined definition of our beliefs. I wonder how people can know the Church has "corrupted" beliefs without having much knowledge of what the original Christians first believed anyway. Perhaps this is a code for "they don't believe what I do, so it must be corrupted". Anyway, I happen to take Christ's words seriously when He said He would send the Spirit to teach all truth and that the Spirit would guide this Church to maintain the deposit of faith, as Paul calls it.

Well, got to go. I'll keep you in my prayers as you continue to search for the Truth. If you have any questions on Catholicism, feel free to ask.

Regards

one of the predictions of the last days is the fall of the church, i believe that to be the RCC since it probably is the original church. I am a catholic (and a baptist) also and it's obvious to me that the doctrines have been corrupted and Roman influenced. The Roman people were not used to bowing and praying to one image w/c is why different images were brought in. Not every roman adjusted well to the words of truth, they had to insert some roman cultures in order for the roman people to adjust to the new religion so it make them feel the pain of their throwing away their long old beliefs. The Christian-romans had to make something that wasn't to much of a culture shock. If you take a look at saint cards, you would see that there is a prayer dedicated to them. That's idolatry. In funerals, and other religious events; catholics will pray the Hail mary # of times. And i'm sorry, those times are for God and God alone. There is no need to offer your meditation or spiritual communication to another other than God. Those things are strictly dedicated to him. You can say that we are just asking for prayers, but thats just fooling ourselves. No where in the bible do you read in about the early christians praying to prophets, mary, or any righteous person of God. Their prayers and thoughts were strictly made for God only. Just because us catholics don't see them as God gives an excuse. If you read in exodus about the golden calf, God had an extreme anger towards the jews because their attention was focused on another idol (idol doesn't necessarily have to be a god) and at that time it was supposed to be God only who had the spot light, he doesn't share it with anyone else. It's roman influenced. The romans were polytheistic, all their gods and goddess had statues on them, zues being the main god of them all. They didn't just pray the biggest/strongest God of all so the adjustment of praying to 1 God was big. It was way different from their culture.

That's what i don't like about Catholicism. I do agree about the history part (they are responsible for everything in christian history), and the traditions.. but there are some traditions that are roman influenced and not jewish influenced. If you watch vids of feasts of a certain saint, you would see the statue of the saint being carried with roses as a necklace, people holding candles to the image and various prayers are being said to it. Feasts dedicated to mary is way too much. She has a huge image centered amoungest the crowd, with flowers bordering her. How can you not call that idolatry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiO616lLRiE

is it because the people acknowledge she is God? The Buddhists bow and pray to the images of Buddha, and it's not different to how the catholics treat mary and the saints. And those Buddhists don't see Buddha as a god, Buddha is not being worshiped but this is still idolatry. People have been deceived. It's just like St John said, the church will follow the doctrine of demons and playing with the spirits. I believe that the RCC has been corrupted. Even in their baptism (submersion) is out of original doctrine. The first believers of Christ submersed the person in holy water, not sprinkle/spray.

 

[turnorburn]

Just be careful you don't cross that invisible line and bring up the Inquisitions my friend.

Thanks,
turnorburn

As to corruption, that is a matter of personal opinion. A more careful study of the development of doctrine (it is quite obvious even in Scriptures) shows not corruption but a more refined definition of our beliefs. I wonder how people can know the Church has "corrupted" beliefs without having much knowledge of what the original Christians first believed anyway. Perhaps this is a code for "they don't believe what I do, so it must be corrupted". Anyway, I happen to take Christ's words seriously when He said He would send the Spirit to teach all truth and that the Spirit would guide this Church to maintain the deposit of faith, as Paul calls it.

Well, got to go. I'll keep you in my prayers as you continue to search for the Truth. If you have any questions on Catholicism, feel free to ask.

Regards

one of the predictions of the last days is the fall of the church, i believe that to be the RCC since it probably is the original church. I am a catholic (and a baptist) also and it's obvious to me that the doctrines have been corrupted and Roman influenced. The Roman people were not used to bowing and praying to one image w/c is why different images were brought in. Not every roman adjusted well to the words of truth, they had to insert some roman cultures in order for the roman people to adjust to the new religion so it make them feel the pain of their throwing away their long old beliefs. The Christian-romans had to make something that wasn't to much of a culture shock. If you take a look at saint cards, you would see that there is a prayer dedicated to them. That's idolatry. In funerals, and other religious events; catholics will pray the Hail mary # of times. And i'm sorry, those times are for God and God alone. There is no need to offer your meditation or spiritual communication to another other than God. Those things are strictly dedicated to him. You can say that we are just asking for prayers, but thats just fooling ourselves. No where in the bible do you read in about the early christians praying to prophets, mary, or any righteous person of God. Their prayers and thoughts were strictly made for God only. Just because us catholics don't see them as God gives an excuse. If you read in exodus about the golden calf, God had an extreme anger towards the jews because their attention was focused on another idol (idol doesn't necessarily have to be a god) and at that time it was supposed to be God only who had the spot light, he doesn't share it with anyone else. It's roman influenced. The romans were polytheistic, all their gods and goddess had statues on them, zues being the main god of them all. They didn't just pray the biggest/strongest God of all so the adjustment of praying to 1 God was big. It was way different from their culture.

That's what i don't like about Catholicism. I do agree about the history part (they are responsible for everything in christian history), and the traditions.. but there are some traditions that are roman influenced and not jewish influenced. If you watch vids of feasts of a certain saint, you would see the statue of the saint being carried with roses as a necklace, people holding candles to the image and various prayers are being said to it. Feasts dedicated to mary is way too much. She has a huge image centered amoungest the crowd, with flowers bordering her. How can you not call that idolatry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiO616lLRiE

is it because the people acknowledge she is God? The Buddhists bow and pray to the images of Buddha, and it's not different to how the catholics treat mary and the saints. And those Buddhists don't see Buddha as a god, Buddha is not being worshiped but this is still idolatry. People have been deceived. It's just like St John said, the church will follow the doctrine of demons and playing with the spirits. I believe that the RCC has been corrupted. Even in their baptism (submersion) is out of original doctrine. The first believers of Christ submersed the person in holy water, not sprinkle/spray.