which is the true christian faith.

[DavidLee]

I never said others could not be used...but why go to modern versions when the AV has already proven itself for almost 400 years. :o

God bless

Because no one has spoken that way in three hundred years. :D I have seen people who are unable to grasp the language of the KJV, but soak up the NIV like a sponge. My daughter has taken up the ESV after much study of the KJV and finds her time is better spent reading the language she speaks.

Someone unaccustomed to old English will be frustrated with the KJV (depending on the passage, of course). I would not tell someone not to use the KJV if they chose to do so, but when they ask "What does this say?" I would go to another translation.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.Not to derail the discussion, but what if someone does not speak/read/write English? What then?....

What if someone doesnt read or write at all? Does that mean they can't come to the knowledge of Christ since the can't "search the scriptures" like those doubters in Berea did?

 

[KenEOTE]

like those doubters in Berea did?

CC you keep dissin the Bereans for searching the scriptures when in the passage they are consisdered noble for doing so. The Bible makes it clear that they did a good thing. Many Christians here a pastor or priest say something and say ok lets do it. That is how you get things like Jonestown.

I have never taken anyones word for it when they say teh Bible says something. I go look it up. I think that is a good thing and all Christians should be doing it.

On the subject which faith is the true faith.. I think the one that practices the Our Father is the true faith.

The one that knows his Name is Holy
The faith that teaches that we want his kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven
And seeks that his will is accomoplished
That seeks to get all their needs from him
WHo knows that to reciecve forgiveness we must forgive

The Our Father is more than a prayer it is a way of life. It is the Christian faith
We are all citizens of God's Kingdom, and we are His Children and he is Our Father.

 

[AVBunyan]

I never said others could not be used...but why go to modern versions when the AV has already proven itself for almost 400 years. :o

God bless

1. Because no one has spoken that way in three hundred years. :D

2. I have seen people who are unable to grasp the language of the KJV, but soak up the NIV like a sponge.

1. The heathen of the past could not speak English at all and they got saved by the thousands! Why do educated folks today have problems with 5 letter words which is the average length of the average word in a King James Bible.

2. I have seen folks soak up a Sports page - but what did they get? :crazyeyes:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I have never taken anyones word for it when they say teh Bible says something. I go look it up.....

Then how come Jesus never said to do that? How come Jesus never told anybody to write anything if it is that important? For that matter, why didn't HE write anything? And how come most of the apostles didn't write anything despite Christ's command for them to teach?

As I said in a previous post, the real reason for canonizing the NT was not so people could read it, but rather so that the liturgies being held throughout the lands would all be reading the correct letters. Most people don't even know that this was the reason for canonizing the Bible. It was never meant to interpreted by individuals in their homes so that they could devise their own doctrines. It was always meant to be in the heart of the Liturgical celebration.

Romans 10: 14, 17: "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?", "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

This shows that Christ's teachings were heard, not read, and that the teacher is one who is sent: Both points I have always made over and over again.

I am not saying it is bad to read the Bible. Quite the opposite: I encourage it. But the individual was never meant to decide doctrine. Christ placed that authority alone with the 12, and they handed it on to their successors, the bishops. (Sere 1 & 2 Timothy.)

 

[KenEOTE]

But aren't we who have heard been sent out to be the ones speaking and teaching.
How will they hear if we are not the ones speaking? The Lost wotn go walking into a Church. We are to go out to them. How can we speak if we do not know the word?
Jesus did say:
"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jesus never told you to go to Mass every sunday, but you do that. Jesus never told you to say the roasery. Jesus never told you to say the Apostles Creed. He never told you to do a lot of things. He did die so we would have a personal relationship with God.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But aren't we who have heard been sent out to be the ones speaking and teaching....

No, we are not. Christ had many disciples but only 12 apostles. A disciple is a follower: An apostle is literally "one who is sent with authority".

Christ chose 12, and gave them the mandate to teach. In Acts, The apostles appoint Deacons (greek - diakonos ), Priests (greek - presbyteros ), and Bishops (greek - episkopos), and each have different duties. It is the same today in the Catholic Church.

Unless you can trace a succession of appointment back to the 12 apostles, you have not been sent in such an authoratative manner. Look here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

I am not saying you should not witness to others and spread the faith: But again, that is a far cry from formulating doctrine. That is not the placed of the individual.

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Great quote: Read it in context, and you'll see He only says that to the twelve.

 

[KenEOTE]

So then CC do you feel we have the Holy Spirit in us now or was that just for the Apostles at Pentecost?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So then CC do you feel we have the Holy Spirit in us now or was that just for the Apostles at Pentecost?

Of COURSE we all have the Holy Spirit. I never meant to say otherwise. The key is, we all have a different part to play in the Body of Christ, and we have different gifts of the Spirit to do our tasks. As Paul says: Are we all the foot? Are we all the hand? A body is a functional system of different components. Some are teachers, some are healers, etc. etc..

In the protestant scenarion, we are ALL our OWN teacher. I do not believe that is the way Jesus set things up.

 

[DavidLee]

.Not to derail the discussion, but what if someone does not speak/read/write English? What then?....

What if someone doesnt read or write at all? Does that mean they can't come to the knowledge of Christ since the can't "search the scriptures" like those doubters in Berea did?

You shouldn't read more into my post than what is there.

I can't decide whether you're asking me what I think, belittling the Bereans, or asking a rhetorical question to make some point that eludes me.

So, in order:
Can't read or write? No problem. I'll explain everything. I have all the time in the world, and nowhere else I need to be until this person understands what Christ did and why, and what it all means.

The Bereans were praised for their actions (in a manner of speaking).

“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.â€Â
(Acts 17:11-12 NASB)

Purple. Because ice cream has no bones.

(Now, I'll back out of this thread. Thank you, everyone, for having me.)

 

[turnorburn]

We all have the holy spirit?

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u298 ... 5439d0.flv

 

[Catholic Crusader]

We all have the holy spirit?...

Well I sure do. Don't you?

 

[KenEOTE]

The thing is in the Jewish faith. All the Jewish boys had to have the Torah Memorized before they turned 13. So that was custom. Jesus was Jewish and spoke to a Jewish Crowd he would never had to tell them to study the scriptures, they already did that. It was the gentile Church that was lazy and stopped. Study to show yourself approved.

Tell me this why do you study the scriptures yourself if you feel that you should just be taught by someone else?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....Study to show yourself approved.

Tell me this why do you study the scriptures yourself if you feel that you should just be taught by someone else?

Study, yes. But formulate your own doctrines? Once again, that's two very different things.

I read the Bible for edification, and to always have the word of God in my mind and heart. I guess what I mean by being taught is: The Church is the final arbitor when a dissention arises over doctrine, and the Council of Jerusalem (in Acts) is the Biblical template for that process. What happened when dissention arose over circumcision? The Council met, they made a BINDING decision, and the matter was closed. Period.

In the 4th century, when the arch-heretic Arius denied the divinity of Christ, what happened? A Council met again, this time with the apostles successors (the bishops), they made a binding decision (that Jesus is fully God and fully man) and the matter was closed.

It has been that way for two thousand years, all the way through to the last coucil, Vatican II. That is how doctrine is decided.

I am not saying that you rely on the Church for every teeny weeny little sentence in the Bible; much of the scriptures are quite obvious in their meaning, such as "Thou shalt not steal". I can figure that one out for myself. But when the Church defines doctrine in a solemn Council chaired by the successor of Peter, as they did in Acts, then the issue is closed. That is the Biblical - and historical - model

 

[turnorburn]

CC says [I am not saying that you rely on the Church for every teeny weeny little sentence in the Bible; much of the scriptures are quite obvious in their meaning, such as "Thou shalt not steal". I can figure that one out for myself. But when the Church defines doctrine in a solemn Council chaired by the successor of Peter, as they did in Acts, then the issue is closed. That is the Biblical - and historical - model]

Then who is your spiritual adviser?

 

[lovely]

Hello everyone,

I believe that others should teach us too...that's why we read the older writings, seek out our elders when there is a problem, and I ask my husband a hundred questions a day, probably. We are to submit to one another in humility. I ask questions of older women, and I ask them on here. I ask them to instruct me, and to bear with me. Accountability and church discipline are also important in keeping us. We should not feel independant as believers, but extremely dependant on the church.

Anyway, I think that reading Scripture should be for being fed on the Word, and drinking in Jesus anew several times a day. For hiding it's words in my heart that I might not sin, for keeping me from fear, and for helping me please Him. I do get my Bible out sometimes when I really don't know how to respond to something...or if I just need Jesus to help me respond the way He desires. The thing is, other believers have wisdom, and can direct us. If we see the fruits of the Spirit in them, then we should be listening to their exhorations toward us. To me, Scripture is a plumb line, and we are called to defend against false teaching...but those teachers have no fruit...we really need to be looking for it more so that we can be carefl. If it is an interpretation issue, then I may lean on another believer until my understanding grows in God, or He shows me different through someone or His Word. I believe that the Word is a plumb line, but I do not know how to interpret all of it myself...I need help of others who are more mature in the faith, and who have more of God's wisdom in them. Yes, the Holy Spirit is teaching and guiding me...He is also leading others to my life to teach me.

Our minds, as humans, formulate doctrines...which divide...but we should ever be mindful to remain focused on the cross in the midst of it. The cross, the Gospel, is simple and it grounds us in God's love. It's hard sometimes, though, because we have so many questions in us...and we want to figure it all out. That's why systematic theology was invented! lol I do want to know how God does all of this...what is really stored up in the riches of His grace, you know? I think the questions are good because they lead us to seek God and His wisdom and then evetually our questions grow, and we begin to start asking the right ones. "Lord, how can I serve you today?" "How can I minister to this person or that one?" "How can I be a better servant as a wife, mother, or daughter."

Sometimes it's only after we get sick of the taste of man's traditions and doctrines interferring with God's desire for shaping us into the image of Christ, to simply love Him, love one another, and live as lights, that we finally, as the Holy Spirit to allow us to hear His voice above all the idle chatter, realize that it's that simple after all.

My thoughts on the current stream in this thread. The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Then who is your spiritual adviser?

Actually, it is recommended that peolpe have a spiritual advisor to talk to. At this particular time though, I do not have one .

 

[turnorburn]

Then who is your spiritual adviser?

Actually, it is recommended that people have a spiritual adviser to talk to. At this particular time though, I do not have one .

To be quite frank with you CC either do I, the last one excommunicated me for falling asleep when he Preached

 

[dadof10]

Personally, I don't see how we can discern which faith is true without looking at the historical writings of the frist few (7,8?) centuries of what was the ONLY Christian Church. They were invaluable (at least to me) in my journey.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Personally, I don't see how we can discern which faith is true without looking at the historical writings of the frist few (7,8?) centuries of what was the ONLY Christian Church. They were invaluable (at least to me) in my journey.

You are correct. We cannot.