which is the true christian faith.

[Catholic Crusader]

....Are you rasing the Dead?....

I hope this doesnt sound snotty, but have YOU raised anyone from the dead?

 

[BobRyan]

Circulation in THOSE days was pretty "iffy". Different regions had a different letter or two, and some letters were being read that were later rejected, such as the letters of Clement (which are a good read, by the by).

My understanding is that churches had much more than just a letter or two. Even scripture points to that: 2 Peter 3:16 takes Pauls letters for granted. And Paul is already refering to Luke on the same inspired level as the Old Testament in 1 Timothy 5:18.

Good point. In fact in Acts 17:11 even NON Christians are reading the bible and "checking up on Apostles to SEE IF those things they say ARE SO".

The reason for doing that is that apostasy was predicted to infect the church shortly after the Apostles step off the stage of action.

The scriptures were the only defense -

In 2Thess 2 Paul speaks to the subject of the 2nd coming and says "That day will not come unless the apostasy" the falling away -- "comes first".

2Thess 2 (NASB)
1 Now we request you, brethren, [b]with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

In Acts 20 he describes the principle of apostacy showing that it "occurs from within" the Christian church.

Acts 20
28 ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 ""I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

And yet the cure for this has been spelled out for us "clearly" -- none "NEED" to be deceived by those who have fallen into apostasy.

Acts 17
10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another;[/b] only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

So what if we ignore this warning blissfully unaware of the danger?

2 Peter 2
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you , who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

in Christ,

bob

 

[BobRyan]

Because the Bible teaches that individual interpretations are wrong. The Bible is clear that Christ chose specific teachers; He did NOT mean for everyone to figure out what is correct and incorrect on their own.

"They studied the scriptures DAILY to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" Acts 17:11.

I guess I need to add this to my signature -- eh?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Because the Bible teaches that individual interpretations are wrong. The Bible is clear that Christ chose specific teachers; He did NOT mean for everyone to figure out what is correct and incorrect on their own.

"They studied the scriptures DAILY to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" Acts 17:11.
I guess I need to add this to my signature -- eh?

Yeah, you should. They wrongly questioned the teachings of the Lord's apostle, just as you question their successors. Its a good match.

 

[KenEOTE]

....Are you rasing the Dead?....

I hope this doesnt sound snotty, but have YOU raised anyone from the dead?

It did sound snotty. But its all good. I am not the one who said that you had to follow every word of the Bible. To answer your question no I haven't raised the dead... yet. I think we each have our purpose and our mission. Mine is not the resurrection of the dead.

BobRyan wrote:

Catholic Crusader wrote:Because the Bible teaches that individual interpretations are wrong. The Bible is clear that Christ chose specific teachers; He did NOT mean for everyone to figure out what is correct and incorrect on their own.



"They studied the scriptures DAILY to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" Acts 17:11.
I guess I need to add this to my signature -- eh?

Actually it says: Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


So they were considered noble for searching the scripture and not just taking Paul's word for it.
I think We are called to search the scriptures and question what is being said by the leadership.

 

[Pogo]

ken -

You asked...

So Pogo I am curious. You said that there is no experation date on teh Bible. Are you out there Healing the sick? Are you rasing the Dead? Jesus told us to do that. Are you drinking a little wine for your stomach? Paul told Timothy to do that. Let go furher Are you following the rules in the Law? (first five books of the Bible?) Jesus came to fulfill the law not do away with it. Do you celebrate the Feasts God commanded. I am curious, or do you also pick and choose which bits of the Bible you want to follow. I am not saying that I follow all teh law, but you took a stance and I am curious how far you go with it.

Execellent questions!

As I qualified in my post following the one above, the laws of the scriptures are binding of those living during the dispensations under which they apply.

I don't keep the laws of the Torah, or any OT laws, unless they are are also bound under the NT, since it is the covenant under which I'm living, AND I'm doing a very poor job of following those, I must add.

As far as I have been able to tell, you can do a search on my posts here to verify this, I seem to hold the most conservative views on the scriptures of any other member here.

--- Women should wear a covering over their hair during prayer.
--- One loaf of unleavened bread on the Lord's Table
--- One cup of unleavened wine on the Lord's Table
---

Sorry...a glich of some kind lost the rest of this post!

I'll try to amend it later!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[KenEOTE]

Pogo,

Ok I was curious. I didn't read all your other. I jump around alot and saw one and was curious. If you get a chance, there is a good book called "The Year of Living Biblically." A man spent one year trying to live under the Torah. Its is actually a great read and very funny at times.

Ken

 

[AVBunyan]

Hi, i'm very confused on the subject of christianity. There are many sects and denominations in this religion, and i feel each one has their own errors. My mother and her family side is straight up roman catholic, while in my fathers side is straight up protestant baptist. I participate on both churches.

Which church or organization is/are the true one/ones? Two ways to check this out:
a. Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible.
b. By their fruits ye shall know them…how does history record their mark or influences.

One “church organization†can be identified by the following:
1. Wherever it goes there is never any true spiritual revival.

2. Other than a few social organizations set up like schools and hospitals the people remain in spiritual darkness.

3. Generally speaking the countries remain in the same economic state they were before the church came.

4. This church is a top-down type government which the people have little say so in how their local churches are run.

5. Just follow the influences of this church and one will notice that wherever it goes and controls there are wars and rumors of war at all times.

6. The people generally do not know enough about the scriptures to be self-governed spiritually – they are like blind sheep that have to be told what is right or wrong.

7. They have no true assurance of eternal life.

8. They can always be spotted seeking to influence governments politically as though in they are a political entity hiding behind the robes of Christianity.

9. The scriptures are not their final authority.

Summary- basically nothing changes in the lives of the people – they have just submitted their consciences unto another.

The other side – though the individual denominations are falling away:

1. Generally speaking, where this group goes to a darkened country there is light. The cannibals quite eating people, put on clothes and become new creatures – II Cor. 4:17.

2. The nations, generally speaking, that are influenced by this group climb out of darkness and into light.

3. The people, generally speaking, become soul winners.

4. The nations’, generally speaking, political, educational, economic, and spiritual status becomes elevated due to the free influence of a King James Bible.

5. Generally speaking, wherever this group goes with a King James Bible revivals have broken out.

Summary – Light, revival, spiritual awareness comes about.

Now – you study and choose,

 

[KenEOTE]

a. Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible.
b. By their fruits ye shall know them…how does history record their mark or influences.

I agree that you should take out a Bible, my question is simple why does it have to be the King James Bible?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

--- One loaf of unleavened bread on the Lord's Table
--- One cup of unleavened wine on the Lord's Table

How does that work if there are two hundred people in attendance?

The subject of this thread (trying to get back to it) makes it real easy to get into arguments. Lets start from the Biblical premise that Christ established one Church (Matt 16:18). Yet, Paul writes to many "churches". This means that the word "church" can be used in different senses. The word can mean:

1. The One Body of Christ, which are the believers (One Church)
2. Local parishes (churches)
3. A Building for worship (church)

Almost always, when I use the word, I am referring to number one. Let's start there and see some commenta before I go further.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible.

Where does Jesus say to do that. Did Jesus ever tell his disciples to judge what His apostles were telling them? No, he did not.

Generally speaking, wherever this group goes with a King James Bible revivals have broken out

Wow. Do you have documented statistics for that? Now I will offer the historic point of view:

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse.His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). The Church’s official teachersâ€â€the pope and the bishops united with himâ€â€have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more â€â€even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

 

[KenEOTE]

Hey CC I didn't say to take out a KJV.. don't quote me on that.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey CC I didn't say to take out a KJV.. don't quote me on that.

Thats weird. How did that happen? I fixed it.

 

[KenEOTE]

I was just kidding.

The true Christian Faith is the one that teaches us that we are part of the Body of Christ on this earth. It teaches we are his Bride. This thread has gotten into what Denomination is the true denomination. The Church is not a building or a series of buildings. It is the people, the followers of Christ. The problem is the people are just that people. They make errors and they have pride. So when those factors mix in you get Denominations. You get people stuck on things that have no relevance to God. What he wants is Fellowship with his creation. That is why he sent his Son. We can no have fellowship with our heavenly Father. It is through Christ that we can accomplish this. Now which denomination believes this? Oh pretty much all of them. Are there differences in Dogma and styles yes.

 

[Pogo]

CC -

You posted...

How does that work if there are two hundred people in attendance?

It works quite well if the scriptural example is followed!

As long as one loaf, and/or cup, is use at a time on the table, and each loaf is properly blessed, broken and passed, as it is needed.

Since, it seems, that you now have become a real stickler for detail, I need you to address the comments of BobRyan's response to you, as to the heresy you spewed above, regarding Christians studing the scriptures for themselves.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[AVBunyan]

a. Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible.
b. By their fruits ye shall know them…how does history record their mark or influences.

I agree that you should take out a Bible, my question is simple why does it have to be the King James Bible?

Good and fair question –
Study true revival since 1611 and you will find the book was used was a King James Bible – This is not my opinion but historical fact. 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible

1. Where does Jesus say to do that.

Generally speaking, wherever this group goes with a King James Bible revivals have broken out

2. Wow. Do you have documented statistics for that?

1. So you want scripture for everything? Where did Jesus say it was OK to have bathrooms in church buildings? My stand on the King James Bible does not violate scripture - Until you can show my statement or stand regarding the AV is unscriptural then I am safe and will sleep like a baby on a full stomach. :-D

2. Try any true history book on revival or even secular books might show this truth. Would you say Central America, South America and the Philippines, etc. went into spiritual revival since Rome got in there? Are the Central American and S. American nations considered the leaders in spiritual revivals, education, scientific advancements, political liberty, etc.? Just asking.

 

[KenEOTE]

I am not saying that a revival did not happen, I am just wondering why KJV? I have seen many lives changed with the use of NIV, or NAS and even the Message. I was just curious if these other translations can be used or not.

 

[DavidLee]

a. Take out a King James Bible and judge the teachings of the church by the bible.
b. By their fruits ye shall know them…how does history record their mark or influences.

I agree that you should take out a Bible, my question is simple why does it have to be the King James Bible?

Good and fair question –
Study true revival since 1611 and you will find the book was used was a King James Bible – This is not my opinion but historical fact. 8-)

Not to derail the discussion, but what if someone does not speak/read/write English? What then?
I think you would see the KJV because it was there at the time. Not because it is special or more inspired or more correct than a modern translation.

 

[AVBunyan]

Not to derail the discussion, but what if someone does not speak/read/write English? What then?

Fair question - I believe the AV is English has been the standard since 1611.

Many a missionary from the past translated from the AV directly or from the Greek-Hebrew texts the AV is based upon into the foreign language of their mission field and God bless the work mightily.

If one cannot speak English then he gets a translation based upon the AV or the Greek-Hebrew texts the AV is based upon - See no problem. :-D

Regarding modern versions based upon the corrupt Egyptian texts - Well, one can survive on fast food but their growth will be stunted a bit.

I never said others could not be used...but why go to modern versions when the AV has already proven itself for almost 400 years. :o

God bless