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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Which one are you?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
C
Collier
Guest
Jason wrote:
Jesus said:
- "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"
C
cubedbee
Guest
There is no contradiction there. Jesus did say that everyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He did not say that everyone who is saved has believed and is baptized. These are two very distinct logical statements that have different meanings.Collier said:
G
Grace Alone
Guest
I agree with #5, though I believe that we are to be baptized because it is commanded by Christ.
X
xsearnold
Guest
WyldCyde said:
Yes, based loosely on personal experience, though I'm not dead yet.
C
Collier
Guest
Jason wrote:
No! Jesus is speaking of water baptism in this passage.
- In Matthew's account, Jesus tells His apostles to go teach and baptize. They could not baptize with the Holy Spirit; only Jesus could do that!
- THE FACT IS Jesus said believe + baptism = salvation. You can't deny this. Your false doctrines have blinded you to what Jesus has PLAINLY stated. Anyone who voted anything other than #1 has voted against Jesus' words and His gospel.
- If you have a problem with what I am saying, your problem is not with me, it is with God and His word. I have simply stated what Jesus said.
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cubedbee
Guest
I guess we really do need a logic lesson here. A conditional statement is any statement that can be written in the form "If p, then q." From an original conditional statement, you can derive the following 4 statements.
1. If p, then q (Original)
2. If q, then p (Converse)
3. If not p, then not q (Inverse)
4. If not q, then not p (Contrapositive)
People often think that 2-4 are all equivalent to the original. In actuality, 1 and 4 are logically equivalent, as are 2 and 3. If the original is true, then the other three can be true, but only the contrapositive must be true.
Now let's look at the concrete example of Jesus's
1. If you believe and are baptized, then you will be saved.
2. If you are saved, then you have believed and been baptized.
3. If you do not believe or are not baptized,then you will not be saved.
4. If you are not saved, then you have not believed or have not been baptized.
Jesus said statement 1, and 1 and 4 are true. However, statements 2 and 3 do not logically follow from what Jesus said. And this is exactly the claim that you are making. You need to understand the implications of what you read before you denounce the beliefs of others.
1. If p, then q (Original)
2. If q, then p (Converse)
3. If not p, then not q (Inverse)
4. If not q, then not p (Contrapositive)
People often think that 2-4 are all equivalent to the original. In actuality, 1 and 4 are logically equivalent, as are 2 and 3. If the original is true, then the other three can be true, but only the contrapositive must be true.
Now let's look at the concrete example of Jesus's
1. If you believe and are baptized, then you will be saved.
2. If you are saved, then you have believed and been baptized.
3. If you do not believe or are not baptized,then you will not be saved.
4. If you are not saved, then you have not believed or have not been baptized.
Jesus said statement 1, and 1 and 4 are true. However, statements 2 and 3 do not logically follow from what Jesus said. And this is exactly the claim that you are making. You need to understand the implications of what you read before you denounce the beliefs of others.
The Bible in it's entirity teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world (Isaiah 53:5–6; Matthew 20:28; Galatians 3:13; John 1:29); that He rose from the dead (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:25–28); and that he ascended into heaven to appear before God the Father as our Advocate and Intercessor (Hebrews 4:14; 9:24; 1 John 2:1). It also teaches that salvation is the free gift of God (Romans 3:24; 6:23) that is received through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:16; 6:28–29; Acts 16:30–31; Ephesians 2:8–9).
If you add that one MUST be baptized, then salvation isn't free. One is baptized as a fruit of salvation.
Jason
If you add that one MUST be baptized, then salvation isn't free. One is baptized as a fruit of salvation.
Jason
C
Collier
Guest
Jason, first of all let me say that my last post was not directed to you alone. It may have come off that way but it was directed to all that negate the necessity of baptism.
- Jason, you said
I did not add that; the Holy Spirit said it. When the 3,000 on Pentecost asked "what MUST we do", Peter through inspiration of the HS said "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". Peter did not tell them that there was nothing to do.
- Jesus told us that to receive this gift we must believe and be baptized and then we would have salvation.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
We are 'chosen' for 'salvation' and 'belief.'
The Gospel isn't, 'get baptized and be saved' but believe and be saved it's about belief in Christ Jesus. Paul said: For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...
Quote: Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.
Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.
Quote: Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘" This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.
We are 'chosen' for 'salvation' and 'belief.'
The Gospel isn't, 'get baptized and be saved' but believe and be saved it's about belief in Christ Jesus. Paul said: For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel...
Quote: Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.
Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.
Quote: Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘" This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.
C
Collier
Guest
You are right that the gospel isn't get baptized and be saved. I have never said that. The gospel is believe and be baptized and be saved.
- As far as Paul not sent to baptize, we see that he actually did baptize some. Paul wasn't sent to baptize but to preach means that he was to focus his attention to preaching the word while there were others who could baptize the believers. Notice in this passage how baptism works in association with Christ. Through baptism we are of Christ (I Cor. 1:12).
- This event was fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel and is not how we are converted today.
Number five.
The Spirit is saved when we believe but the soul needs to work out it's salvation.
The Spirit is saved when we believe but the soul needs to work out it's salvation.
What's no. 5?
Sorry, I'm in rehearsal right now.
daninthelionsden
Member
Did the thief next to Christ on the cross do all that?