Who created Satan?

[JohnDB]

Chronologically speaking if Moses wrote Job then that is the first mention of Satan. Chronicles is the distant second with a mention of David's actions in a census. Kings relates the same story a bit differently with no mention of Satan at all.

The Serpent in the Garden has been said to be"Satan" but considering the time of writing the hermeneutics applied could be made to be understood as Adam and Eve's bad thought process as well. (Serpent was considered a symbol of man's wisdom in Egypt where the Hebrews had just come from as Moses was writing it)

It really wasn't until the introduction of Cyrus and Zoroastrianism that theology concerning Satan became more fully developed. (A lot of syncretism was developed)

Further thoughts became more widespread with the pseudopigraphal book of Enoch. (And the basis for much of the ideas expressed here)

Since God can only create the possibility of sin it requires man to actually create sin and opposition to God.

 

[Taniesh]

Here is what I have come to learn about the process of Lucifer. God created Lucifer first, He loved Lucifer greatly, God gave Lucifer great beauty, a very intriguing breastplate with all kinds of precious stones on it, and charge of a third of the angels...and anybody knows God knows He don't create just a few He creates legions of angels so a third could be millions or even billions, and He allowed Lucifer to cover His throne, and to walk among the stones of fire above God's head. Not only those God also gave Lucifer great wisdom. God knowing that His plans to create mankind to gain a self will there had to be another option for man to make a choice so Lucifer was chosen to be the one who could be the only one as close to God as Lucifer was to do the task of being that opposition. Therefore once God gave all these things to Lucifer God knew it would change Lucifer into the very tool God needed to introduce to mankind as a choice. There is not one created being under God that ever will be able to handle such power and attention other than God so it eventually got to Lucifer and iniquity was found in Lucifer. Lucifer became puffed up with pride and turned a third of the angels into followers of Lucifer. Then Lucifer became satan in the process. Then God was ready to place Satan right in the middle of Adam and Eve's living room so to speak then God created Adam and Eve. Therefore Adam and Eve was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. There must be a very good reason and a deep purpose for God to do all of this and the mystery is still widespread as to why? We are allowed to ask God question because says in Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

I certainly haven't been able to figure out why satan is here.
Have you?

If someone here can explain why evil, satan, or why bad things happen to good people, I'd like to hear it.
So far, after 40 years of looking, I haven't found the reason.

What I'm saying is that we don't have an answer as to why evil, bad, satan, exist.

So far, no answer.

Wondering

Hi IT
I have a lot of bibles here. Also some commentaries. I don't really use the commentaries unless absolutely necessary. I like to know what people I'm speaking to make of what they read in the bible. I know what Mathew Henry thinks.

What do YOU think?



Can God, an all-good and omnipotent being, create evil?
And why would He?

Above you quoted:
Let not the poor oppressed murmur, as if God dealt unkindly with them.

I think that if I felt God dealt unkindly with me, after telling me He loves me and died for me, I'd be hard pressed NOT to murmer.

What say you?

Wondering

Gee, I say something and people don't accept it, so then I quote Matthew Henry and no one accepts it either. The passage in Isaiah 45 is talking about how God raised up Cyrus to punish the children of Israel. I don't think the God dealt unkindly with Israel. He lead them out of captivity in Egypt with most of the riches of Egypt. He lead them through the desert, fed them, clothed them, and took care of their every need for 40 years (which would never have happened if they would have trusted him.) Then He led them into the promised land, fought their every battle to conquer it and what do they do, they turn on Him and worship other Gods. Some of the Gods like Molach and Baal required human sacrifice. God was very patient with them. He allowed this to go on for almost 800 years before He punished them for it. In the mean time He sent prophets like Elijah, Isaiah, and many more to warn them, but they didn't listen. I don't think He was unfair at all.

I didn't set up the world we live in, I just have to live in it and I don't understand all of it, I'm not God and I can't see what's happening beyond my worldly chains. He says in Roman 8:28, "God works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose." What we don't understand we just have to accept. That's all our small brains can do. We must accept that God is working everything for our good.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Here is what I have come to learn about the process of Lucifer. God created Lucifer first, He loved Lucifer greatly, God gave Lucifer great beauty, a very intriguing breastplate with all kinds of precious stones on it, and charge of a third of the angels...and anybody knows God knows He don't create just a few He creates legions of angels so a third could be millions or even billions, and He allowed Lucifer to cover His throne, and to walk among the stones of fire above God's head. Not only those God also gave Lucifer great wisdom. God knowing that His plans to create mankind to gain a self will there had to be another option for man to make a choice so Lucifer was chosen to be the one who could be the only one as close to God as Lucifer was to do the task of being that opposition. Therefore once God gave all these things to Lucifer God knew it would change Lucifer into the very tool God needed to introduce to mankind as a choice. There is not one created being under God that ever will be able to handle such power and attention other than God so it eventually got to Lucifer and iniquity was found in Lucifer. Lucifer became puffed up with pride and turned a third of the angels into followers of Lucifer. Then Lucifer became satan in the process. Then God was ready to place Satan right in the middle of Adam and Eve's living room so to speak then God created Adam and Eve. Therefore Adam and Eve was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. There must be a very good reason and a deep purpose for God to do all of this and the mystery is still widespread as to why? We are allowed to ask God question because says in Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Great explanation!

 

[smaller]

Chronologically speaking if Moses wrote Job then that is the first mention of Satan. Chronicles is the distant second with a mention of David's actions in a census. Kings relates the same story a bit differently with no mention of Satan at all.

Scripture predated Moses.

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Serpent in the Garden has been said to be"Satan" but considering the time of writing the hermeneutics applied could be made to be understood as Adam and Eve's bad thought process as well.

If we understand the principle of Mark 4:15 the tempter, the deceiver was IN the "thought processes" of them both. It's pointless to see the serpent as an "external" matter. There was Adam, Eve, and the tempter who had entered into their hearts and deceived them.

There were "invisible" beasts with invisible powers created by God. They still exist. Rev. 16:13-14

(Serpent was considered a symbol of man's wisdom in Egypt where the Hebrews had just come from as Moses was writing it)

It really wasn't until the introduction of Cyrus and Zoroastrianism that theology concerning Satan became more fully developed. (A lot of syncretism was developed)

That's the common spin that's taught in most colleges in the U.S. today, but it is NOT true. God, His Ways and Means were specifically directed into the physical lineage of Christ from the beginning.

Since God can only create the possibility of sin it requires man to actually create sin and opposition to God.

The ways of Satan are to blame only man for sin and direct attentions away from himself.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gee, I say something and people don't accept it, so then I quote Matthew Henry and no one accepts it either. The passage in Isaiah 45 is talking about how God raised up Cyrus to punish the children of Israel. I don't think the God dealt unkindly with Israel. He lead them out of captivity in Egypt with most of the riches of Egypt. He lead them through the desert, fed them, clothed them, and took care of their every need for 40 years (which would never have happened if they would have trusted him.) Then He led them into the promised land, fought their every battle to conquer it and what do they do, they turn on Him and worship other Gods. Some of the Gods like Molach and Baal required human sacrifice. God was very patient with them. He allowed this to go on for almost 800 years before He punished them for it. In the mean time He sent prophets like Elijah, Isaiah, and many more to warn them, but they didn't listen. I don't think He was unfair at all.

I didn't set up the world we live in, I just have to live in it and I don't understand all of it, I'm not God and I can't see what's happening beyond my worldly chains. He says in Roman 8:28, "God works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose." What we don't understand we just have to accept. That's all our small brains can do. We must accept that God is working everything for our good.

I love Mathew Henry. He's my favorite. Very spiritual. It's not that I don't accept him, it's that I wanted to know what you think of it all.

So, your first paragraph doesn't say much to me about evil. Except that it's here and God could use even that to His own will for us.

But your second paragraph says a lot.
And I agree with you 100%

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Great explanation!

IT
This is so extra-biblical!
Where does it say all this in the bible?
Are we to make up our own theories?
If this is how the O.P. wants to understand it all, it's okay. But he's passing on information that cannot be confirmed. (regarding post no. 222)

I believe we are to accept biblical teaching only - with no embellishing.
And if that leaves us with a mystery, so be it.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is what I have come to learn about the process of Lucifer. God created Lucifer first, He loved Lucifer greatly, God gave Lucifer great beauty, a very intriguing breastplate with all kinds of precious stones on it, and charge of a third of the angels...and anybody knows God knows He don't create just a few He creates legions of angels so a third could be millions or even billions, and He allowed Lucifer to cover His throne, and to walk among the stones of fire above God's head. Not only those God also gave Lucifer great wisdom. God knowing that His plans to create mankind to gain a self will there had to be another option for man to make a choice so Lucifer was chosen to be the one who could be the only one as close to God as Lucifer was to do the task of being that opposition. Therefore once God gave all these things to Lucifer God knew it would change Lucifer into the very tool God needed to introduce to mankind as a choice. There is not one created being under God that ever will be able to handle such power and attention other than God so it eventually got to Lucifer and iniquity was found in Lucifer. Lucifer became puffed up with pride and turned a third of the angels into followers of Lucifer. Then Lucifer became satan in the process. Then God was ready to place Satan right in the middle of Adam and Eve's living room so to speak then God created Adam and Eve. Therefore Adam and Eve was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. There must be a very good reason and a deep purpose for God to do all of this and the mystery is still widespread as to why? We are allowed to ask God question because says in Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

How have you come to learn this?
Could you provide scripture for all of the above?

I refer specifically to God wanting to give man a free choice and so He created Lucifer to be the opposition.
Also, if God gave Lucifer so much wisdom, as you state, why was he so dumb?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Here is what I have come to learn about the process of Lucifer. God created Lucifer first, He loved Lucifer greatly, God gave Lucifer great beauty, a very intriguing breastplate with all kinds of precious stones on it, and charge of a third of the angels...and anybody knows God knows He don't create just a few He creates legions of angels so a third could be millions or even billions, and He allowed Lucifer to cover His throne, and to walk among the stones of fire above God's head. Not only those God also gave Lucifer great wisdom. God knowing that His plans to create mankind to gain a self will there had to be another option for man to make a choice so Lucifer was chosen to be the one who could be the only one as close to God as Lucifer was to do the task of being that opposition. Therefore once God gave all these things to Lucifer God knew it would change Lucifer into the very tool God needed to introduce to mankind as a choice. There is not one created being under God that ever will be able to handle such power and attention other than God so it eventually got to Lucifer and iniquity was found in Lucifer. Lucifer became puffed up with pride and turned a third of the angels into followers of Lucifer. Then Lucifer became satan in the process. Then God was ready to place Satan right in the middle of Adam and Eve's living room so to speak then God created Adam and Eve. Therefore Adam and Eve was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. There must be a very good reason and a deep purpose for God to do all of this and the mystery is still widespread as to why? We are allowed to ask God question because says in Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

The above may be a nice story, and one that is accepted by most freewill camps, but it has a LOT of flaws.

For example, there is no scripture anywhere that says God loved Satan. It doesn't exist. NOR are there any accounts in scripture of Holy Angels gone bad/evil.

Satan, the devil, is said to be a sinner from the beginning. 1 John 3:8. And a liar from the beginning, John 8:44.

I'm sure you've heard the term, "a necessary evil." I might think that term appropriate for Satan and his own.

 

[Taniesh]

IT
This is so extra-biblical!
Where does it say all this in the bible?
Are we to make up our own theories?
If this is how the O.P. wants to understand it all, it's okay. But he's passing on information that cannot be confirmed. (regarding post no. 222)

I believe we are to accept biblical teaching only - with no embellishing.
And if that leaves us with a mystery, so be it.

Wondering

Oh it can be confirmed only by those who know The Holy Spirit. I know it is hard to comprehend when anyone have been taught to believe we are not to know the mysteries of God but we are told anyone can know those mysteries as long as we ask,seek.and knock. But if it said "we are not to know the mysteries" is limited by ones willingness to ask, seek, and knock.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh it can be confirmed only by those who know The Holy Spirit. I know it is hard to comprehend when anyone have been taught to believe we are not to know the mysteries of God but we are told anyone can know those mysteries as long as we ask,seek.and knock. But if it said "we are not to know the mysteries" is limited by ones willingness to ask, seek, and knock.

So, only you know the Holy Spirit?
What if the Holy Spirit tells you something different than He tells me?
How are we to determine who is right?

W

 

[Taniesh]

Isaiah 1
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them .
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it .
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

 

[GodsGrace]

Isaiah 1
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them .
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it .
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Huh?
Are you talking to me?

 

[Taniesh]

So, only you know the Holy Spirit?
What if the Holy Spirit tells you something different than He tells me?
How are we to determine who is right?

W

Answer to question one--no, anyone can. Third question--ask Him ask The Holy Spirit.

 

[smaller]

So, only you know the Holy Spirit?
What if the Holy Spirit tells you something different than He tells me?
How are we to determine who is right?

W

Stick to the script.

It amazed me how long I bought into the "freewill" story.

The script struck me one day:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It was about that point that I saw freewill as a demonic teaching.

 

[Taniesh]

Huh?
Are you talking to me?

Is it?

 

[Kidron]

Sorry I was not clearer. What I was asking is not if Michael or Gabriel has in the past rebelled, but rather - given your view of angels having a free will to choose evil - what prevents Michael and/or Gabriel from deciding in the distant future to rebel against God just as Satan did?

-
Yes, i understood that your question is hypothetical...
And if the bible had not shown us the completed history of everything, (with no other angels rebelling)
So, setting that aside......free will is free will, and all are allowed to use it as they "wilt".
The reason that no other heavenly being would care to try a little rebellion, is because they have seen the results,
and the result are eternal.
So, they are just a bit too wise to choose that end result.

 

[GodsGrace]

Answer to question one--no, anyone can. Third question--ask Him ask The Holy Spirit.

Taniesh,
The bible wasn't written with God's inspiration so we could make up our own stories as to what God thought or did.

Please provide scripture for your post no. 222.

Especially the part re God creating Lucifer so that he could be the opposition.
This disturbs me because I've been under the impression for many years that God is all-good.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Here is what I have come to learn about the process of Lucifer...

And where and how did you come to learn all this? I ask because a fair amount of what you are teaching is nowhere to be found in scripture without going beyond the text.

I think I know the answer. But just to be certain, I'll ask you again: in the earlier post, were you writing of The Way International, founded by Victor Paul Wierwille? If so, I am assuming you do not believe in God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and critically, God the Son? Do you accept that Jesus Christ was always God the Son, with God the Father from the beginning of all time, existing distinct form God the Father and yet equal in essence?

Taniesh, if I am wrong in thinking you are a follower of TWI, please forgive me. If I am right, please understand I have an obligation to out wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.

 

[Taniesh]

I have never said anything pertaining to being a part of the way international, I never even heard of it until someone here brought it up. I have always referred to The Way as pertaining to Jesus saying He is The Way. I know Jesus is the son of God and he is Christ and the trinity is three yet one.