Who created Satan?

[GodsGrace]

To this question I would hedge towards answering as NO. Jesus came to make known the Father, but Jesus was the proper representation of the Son.

If God did not create evil, then why was there a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was not the tree tree of knowledge.

Why do you suppose in the book of Jude, like Michael the Archangel, we are instructed not to bring railing accusation against Satan? Why?

I'm sorry I almost missed this.

No EZ. I don't know why.
You're referring to Jude 9.
Michael the Archangel (head of all the angels) did not reproach satan when arguing about Moses' body.
Why do you suppose he didn't?

And do we even know from where Jude gets this story of Michael and satan?
If Jude says it, it must be true, I just can't remember reading about it - not that I remember everything!

So, yes. Please explain.

Wondering

 

[Sinthesis]

Deu 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 - And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Jde 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.​

My interpretation is that their adversary would have loved for the Israelites to, in effect, deify Moses' body with a gravesite shrine such as was done through the Egyptian pyramids. Rather than rail at those proposing this abomination, the authority in charge won the argument by politely saying 'The Lord rebuke thee'.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry I almost missed this.

No EZ. I don't know why.
You're referring to Jude 9.
Michael the Archangel (head of all the angels) did not reproach satan when arguing about Moses' body.
Why do you suppose he didn't?

And do we even know from where Jude gets this story of Michael and satan?
If Jude says it, it must be true, I just can't remember reading about it - not that I remember everything!

So, yes. Please explain.

Wondering

Jude writes:

(Jude 9) But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Small portions of the Assumption of Moses still exist today, but Jude was quoting from a portion that is now lost. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus of Alexandra all claimed that Jude is referring to the Assumption of Moses.

The OT explains that God buried Moses in the land of Moab, “but no man knows his burial place to this day” (Deut. 34:5-6). Moses was buried, but he shows up bodily at the Mount of Transfiguration


http://www.thefishersofmenministries.com/THE ASSUMPTION OF MOSES.pdf


Pretty amazing things that Moses prophesied of to Joshua just before he passed into the next life.



JLB

 

[selihah]

The bible does say that Yahweh created everything. Both in the O. T. and in the N.T. Herein lies my problem. Did God create evil? I cannot believe this but also cannot come to any solution. I've learned only to accept.
It is interesting to discuss when this topic comes up - but I'm not expecting any answers.

In Genesis we only read about the serpent. Not satan. Satan is an idea that was gradually developed throughout the O.T.

. Hmm I would have to slighty disagree there, it may have developed during a certain time period but there is no evidence whatsoever in the Tanach of an opposing supernatural being by the name of Satan. You will I think find such thinking originated in Babylon and during Israels dispersion into Babylon where a lot, and I do mean a lot of Babylons ways influenced the ways and imaginations of the children of Israel, its embarrassing how much.

and especially in the N.T. But much of the bible is gradual revelation - God revealed His plan gradually as man was able to accept. As you must know, contextualists believe the story of Genesis is only a symbol story to explain how evil entered into the heart of man. Of course, it brings up many questions - more than it answers.

Indeed various opinions do abound. Some tend to think man was created with two impulses one urge to do good and one urge to do evil, and see it as a necessity to the dogma of freewill, for you cannot have one without the other and call it freewill. Freewill IMO is a good thing a mans character can be determined by which impulse is dominate within him. I think Ive mentioned this before too that the evil urge is it not essentially a bad thing, that it is evil only in so far as it is liable to be misused. We see this aspect very clearly when God saw everything that he had made and behold it was very good. So the urge to do evil, altough it eventuates in wrongdoing, is essential equipment of man and indeed grants him the opportunity of being a moral being. Because without it there would be no possibilty of his doing evil and, as a consequence, goodness also would be meaningless.

Also, biblical history begins with Abraham and I often wonder how much we should be debating events before that since they were mainly written of to teach us something. I do believe each event was based on fact however. A flood really happened. Ziggurats were really built to be a meeting place between God and people, thus the base for the Tower of Babel.

Christians believe everything Jesus said because we believe He is the awaited Messiah. If He spoke of satan, then we just have to accept that he exists as a real entity.

fair enough.

Do you understand Jesus to have failed in His mission because His life ended in death instead of victory over the Romans? Do you not accept that He fulfilled many prophecies?

Wondering

My biggest fear is getting kicked off or having my posts deleted for being honest. Please understand I answer without malice when I say: No, and I would be happy to discuss my thoughts in another topic.

peace

 

[GodsGrace]

Jude writes:

(Jude 9) But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”

Small portions of the Assumption of Moses still exist today, but Jude was quoting from a portion that is now lost. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus of Alexandra all claimed that Jude is referring to the Assumption of Moses.

The OT explains that God buried Moses in the land of Moab, “but no man knows his burial place to this day” (Deut. 34:5-6). Moses was buried, but he shows up bodily at the Mount of Transfiguration


http://www.thefishersofmenministries.com/THE ASSUMPTION OF MOSES.pdf


Pretty amazing things that Moses prophesied of to Joshua just before he passed into the next life.



JLB

Didn't know about the Assumption of Moses.
At the Transfiguration we see the heavenly bodies of Moses and Elijah. Whether or not they were buried or taken up would be irrelevant I suppose.

Will be reading the link.
Thanks JLB.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Deu 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 - And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Jde 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.​

My interpretation is that their adversary would have loved for the Israelites to, in effect, deify Moses' body with a gravesite shrine such as was done through the Egyptian pyramids. Rather than rail at those proposing this abomination, the authority in charge won the argument by politely saying 'The Lord rebuke thee'.

This makes sense. The archangel didn't want to usurp the authority of God? He did what God commanded him to do, but would not go beyond that in actually reprimanding him since that would seem to be God's function.

But ezrider is asking WHY Archangel Michael would not reprimand the adversary.
Could it be this simple...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

. Hmm I would have to slighty disagree there, it may have developed during a certain time period but there is no evidence whatsoever in the Tanach of an opposing supernatural being by the name of Satan. You will I think find such thinking originated in Babylon and during Israels dispersion into Babylon where a lot, and I do mean a lot of Babylons ways influenced the ways and imaginations of the children of Israel, its embarrassing how much.

Selihah,
What the adversary is called seems to be of little importance to me. What IS important is that an adversary does exist. You say there is no such supernatural being in the Tanach. What about Job? Job 1:6 speaks of "satan" in the NASB: In Young's LT it says "adversary." But an adversary does indeed show up and so the idea of "satan" begins already in Job. Although Job might have been written during exilic time, the story was know long before this, maybe as long as 2,000 AC. Information from the NASB. Maybe the idea of satan had become more concrete in Babylon, but the seed was there before, in my understanding, and thus my feeling that the idea of satan developed over time.

Job 1:6 speaks of the adversary in YLT.
By the time we get to 1 Peter 5:8, the reference that is made is: "Your adversary, the devil..."
Both in the NASB and YLT the word "devil" is added.

If Jesus is accepted as who He said He was, even as a great prophet, then we'd have to accept that by this time the adversary was a specific being or entity that followed a specific course of action - wooing people to his side.

But the very word "adversary" means the one who opposes us or attacks us.
I do see this transformation - even beginning in the O.T. with Job.
You don't agree?

Indeed various opinions do abound. Some tend to think man was created with two impulses one urge to do good and one urge to do evil, and see it as a necessity to the dogma of freewill, for you cannot have one without the other and call it freewill. Freewill IMO is a good thing a mans character can be determined by which impulse is dominate within him. I think Ive mentioned this before too that the evil urge is it not essentially a bad thing, that it is evil only in so far as it is liable to be misused. We see this aspect very clearly when God saw everything that he had made and behold it was very good. So the urge to do evil, altough it eventuates in wrongdoing, is essential equipment of man and indeed grants him the opportunity of being a moral being. Because without it there would be no possibilty of his doing evil and, as a consequence, goodness also would be meaningless.

I agree with everything you say except for the fact that evil is NOT ONLY man's desire to do the bad because of our free will. What about nature? Evil is in nature too. Does nature get to decide to do good or evil? And yet evil is a part of it. A breeze could be pleasant or it could turn into a hurricane. Even though you do not accept, I'll post Romans 8:19-22. This would tend to indicate that evil is a separate force, outside of man, and with its own power.

My biggest fear is getting kicked off or having my posts deleted for being honest. Please understand I answer without malice when I say: No, and I would be happy to discuss my thoughts in another topic.

Understood.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Hmm I would have to slighty disagree there, it may have developed during a certain time period but there is no evidence whatsoever in the Tanach of an opposing supernatural being by the name of Satan.

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9


14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
Genesis 3:14



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9


14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
Genesis 3:14



JLB

Yes. By the time Revelation was written, the adversary was called The Devil, YLT.
This was my point in post no. 347, first paragraph.

Whatever he was called, Adversary, Devil, Satan, he existed from the beginning of time, but the revelation of this evil entity took time to develop to come to understanding him as Jesus did and taught us.

Do you agree?

Wondering

 

[selihah]

Selihah,
What the adversary is called seems to be of little importance to me. What IS important is that an adversary does exist. You say there is no such supernatural being in the Tanach. What about Job? Job 1:6 speaks of "satan" in the NASB: In Young's LT it says "adversary." But an adversary does indeed show up and so the idea of "satan" begins already in Job. Although Job might have been written during exilic time, the story was know long before this, maybe as long as 2,000 AC. Information from the NASB. Maybe the idea of satan had become more concrete in Babylon, but the seed was there before, in my understanding, and thus my feeling that the idea of satan developed over time.

Job 1:6 speaks of the adversary in YLT.
By the time we get to 1 Peter 5:8, the reference that is made is: "Your adversary, the devil..."
Both in the NASB and YLT the word "devil" is added.

If Jesus is accepted as who He said He was, even as a great prophet, then we'd have to accept that by this time the adversary was a specific being or entity that followed a specific course of action - wooing people to his side.

But the very word "adversary" means the one who opposes us or attacks us.
I do see this transformation - even beginning in the O.T. with Job.
You don't agree?

Yes in the Book of Job there is a supernatural satan. In my hebrew bible it just says adversary, whereas yours I suspect it is translated Satan with a capital letter S. As I have previously stated ha satan can be human, angelic, even God the Creator of the Heavens and earth identified Himself as a satan. One thing should be noted though when reading about the actions of angelic satans in Tanach is that they only carry out what God commands them to do. They do not in anyway shape or form oppose the will of their Creator, so because of their obedience they could by definition be considered righteous beings.

I agree with everything you say except for the fact that evil is NOT ONLY man's desire to do the bad because of our free will. What about nature? Evil is in nature too. Does nature get to decide to do good or evil? And yet evil is a part of it. A breeze could be pleasant or it could turn into a hurricane. Even though you do not accept, I'll post Romans 8:19-22. This would tend to indicate that evil is a separate force, outside of man, and with its own power.

Wow, the question as to wether nature has a will Im sure would be a long an interesting discussion . Einstein once said God does not play dice with the universe. Others have said He may however allow the universe play dice.

 

[smaller]

smaller
If satan was in our flesh, wouldn't that be possession?

It's not bad enough we have the sin nature as part of us,
you want us to have satan in us too?

W

Believers who seek these matters through the lenses that Hollywood provides are not seeing accurately.

Our own sorry hides are against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. Our flesh doesn't care for that aspect of scripture presentations of fact. But when we see that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, and that we are sinners the scriptural math is not that difficult to see, as to WHY this conflict exists.

Everyone who claims "immunity" is not looking at their flesh accurately, or even more accurately who is behind it:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This identical depiction is made by Paul, here:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It's the same presentation here:

1 Corinthians 15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

There is a far more interesting principle in play in these matters. Many actually. Unless God in Christ Himself "allows" a believer to see this state of the flesh and the demonic impetus behind sin, they can not see or perceive any of this.

So why bring it up? Precise to provoke the "other" parties with Gods Facts, and thereby resistance shows it's face openly.

 

[smaller]

I have watched you teach this concept to people over and over on this Forum, and is is extremely deceptive.

Most people don't even understand what your implying.

JLB

You have watched me cite scriptures regarding these matters and nothing more. I don't expect "believers" to see it.

But once it hits home personally, believers will never forget it. It can't be "unseen." It's impossible to not see it.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Anyone who says their sin isn't of the devil is not seeing or looking, and can not see by Divine Decree.

Exodus 4:11
And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

 

[smaller]

His perspective exalts the power of the devil over God.

JLB

I might say I have extreme respect for how God, yes God set this world up:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Here we see the obvious connection, again, as to "who" this involves:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we are "saved" it is to rule over and dominate that spirit of disobedience. But we do not eliminate having the contention and contrariness that spirit of disobedience presents to/in the flesh, which is against the Spirit of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes. By the time Revelation was written, the adversary was called The Devil, YLT.
This was my point in post no. 347, first paragraph.

Whatever he was called, Adversary, Devil, Satan, he existed from the beginning of time, but the revelation of this evil entity took time to develop to come to understanding him as Jesus did and taught us.

Do you agree?

Wondering

This is an interesting statement.
Do you have Scripture to show that he existed from the beginning of time?

 

[JLB]

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that commits sin is of the devil.

This does not say what you teach which is.... Sin is the devil.

Or even... Sin is of the devil.

He who sins is of the devil.

You have attempted to teach the people of this forum that Satan is the sin that is in their flesh, by twisting 1 John 3:8 into something it plainly does no say.

Then you insinuate that we are blind and can not see that Satan dwells in our flesh.

The scripture does not say:

Sin is the devil.

Or

Sin is of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning....

The devil himself sinned.

Those who sin are of the devil.

Each person is held responsible for their sin.

God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

You are putting a stumbling block before people, when you teach them that they will not be held responsible for their own deeds and actions, by claiming it will be the devil in their flesh that will be punished rather than they person who lives an ungodly lifestyle, practicing the works of the flesh.

As Paul taught us...

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[smaller]

He that commits sin is of the devil.

This does not say what you teach which is.... Sin is the devil.

Or even... Sin is of the devil.

He who sins is of the devil.

If people think there is some substantial difference between sin and sinS they are mistaken. Sin is of the devil. Sins are of the devil. Take your pick. The "linking" of the devil to sin/sins is not about to disappear in either statement.

Sin indwells the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. We don't rid flesh of this fact. The flesh, because of this is and remains "actively" contrary to and against the Spirit. And vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

Any believer who thinks their flesh is in good standing with God isn't looking at the obvious issues with sin and it's relationship to the enemy of God, our adversary.

 

[Sinthesis]

This makes sense. The archangel didn't want to usurp the authority of God? He did what God commanded him to do, but would not go beyond that in actually reprimanding him since that would seem to be God's function.

But ezrider is asking WHY Archangel Michael would not reprimand the adversary.
Could it be this simple...

Wondering

From the context of Jude we can see that Michael did reprimand the adversary, but did not 'demonize' him. Humans have a tendency to 'demonize' their human opponents.

Jude also mentions the grave of Moses, which confirms there was no assumption of Moses, but that he died and was buried.

 

[JLB]

Sin is of the devil.

False. No scripture.

Sins are of the devil.

False! No scripture.


The scripture says:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:7-8

He who sins is of the devil...

The person who sins is of the devil...


It doesn't say sins are of the devil.
It doesn't say sin is of the devil.

It says... He who sins is of the devil.

• Likewise: He who practices righteousness is righteous.

He who practices sin, is of the devil.
He who practices righteousness is righteous.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sin indwells the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. We don't rid flesh of this fact.

Not in this life anyway.

The flesh, because of this is and remains "actively" contrary to and against the Spirit. And vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

Yes. that is what the bible says.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

• The remedy we have been given over this is... the Holy Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18

• Those who practice the works and deeds of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• We have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, so there is no excuse.

If we by the Spirit put to death, the deeds of the flesh, we will live.
If we live according to the flesh, we will die.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14

• If we present our members as slaves to sin, we will become a slave to sin, and in the end we will perish; eternal death.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23



JLB

 

[JLB]

I might say I have extreme respect for how God, yes God set this world up:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Here we see the obvious connection, again, as to "who" this involves:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we are "saved" it is to rule over and dominate that spirit of disobedience. But we do not eliminate having the contention and contrariness that spirit of disobedience presents to/in the flesh, which is against the Spirit of God.

Here is what Romans 11 also says...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

• God has mercy on those who believe and obey the Gospel.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



JLB