Who created Satan?

[smaller]

Not in this life anyway.

Let's leave it at that because it's the only place we'll be seeming to agree on at this time.

Scriptures do not provide us any remedy for that which the Spirit is "actively" contrary to and against, no matter how good of an act it can manage to put on. Gal. 5:17. And this is because of internal activity of temptations, lusts and deceptions in the flesh via Satan, the tempter, the deceiver, the killer of our flesh.

James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

When James employs us to flee lusts, he is in effect requesting us to RESIST the devil's ways. There are reasons to 'resist' the devil in our own lusts. Because they are of our adversary and we can be again enslaved to Satan in the flesh and return to our former state of Spiritual blindness. It is good to remember 'from whom' we've been divided from. Satan never stopped seeking to "sift Peter like wheat" because Satan savors the things of MAN.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This resistance is not external, but internal, against the devil's lusts. We are in short, NOT the devil. There is our division and his fleeing established.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes in the Book of Job there is a supernatural satan. In my hebrew bible it just says adversary, whereas yours I suspect it is translated Satan with a capital letter S. As I have previously stated ha satan can be human, angelic, even God the Creator of the Heavens and earth identified Himself as a satan. One thing should be noted though when reading about the actions of angelic satans in Tanach is that they only carry out what God commands them to do. They do not in anyway shape or form oppose the will of their Creator, so because of their obedience they could by definition be considered righteous beings.

Wow, the question as to wether nature has a will Im sure would be a long an interesting discussion . Einstein once said God does not play dice with the universe. Others have said He may however allow the universe play dice.

Re paragraph one - yes, some on this very thread have said that the evil angels are here to carry out God's commands. But do you believe God is all-good, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Then how could He command any being to carry out evil? I've read When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Rabbi Harold S. Kushner. After a personal tragedy, he also came to believe that God DOES NOT cause evil, but allows it to happen and we cannot know why. He learned that we can keep God near us even though He does not will that tragedies disappear from our lives.

As to the second paragraph. I must have not explained myself well. I did not mean to imply that nature has a free will. What I said is that nature is tainted with the sin nature. The sin nature, once introduced in the Garden, permeates everything - even nature. The entire world is affected by sin. This is what I meant when I said that a breeze could be comforting or it could become a fierce wind that destroys and kills. ( I quoted Romans 8:19-22)

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Scriptures do not provide us any remedy for that which the Spirit is "actively" contrary to and against,

Why do you willfully close you eyes to the scriptures, and what they say.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 2:2-4

It is by His Divine nature within us, and His power to exercise dominion over sin, that we have victory in this life having escaped the corruption of the world.

Just read what the scriptures say... it is our responsibility to put to death the deeds of the flesh, BY THE SPIRIT.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

• We have the remedy to crucify the flesh, rendering it incapable of producing it's sinful deeds.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-25

THAT'S THE REMEDY.

Each one of us has a choice, to either present our members as slaves to sin, or as slaves to God, and His righteousness.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:16-17


The Choice: whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

...to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


The Choice: do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit...Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot?

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Corinthians 6:15-20

• Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

="smaller, post: 1228030, member: 42"]If people think there is some substantial difference between sin and sinS they are mistaken. Sin is of the devil. Sins are of the devil. Take your pick. The "linking" of the devil to sin/sins is not about to disappear in either statement.

Sin indwells the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. We don't rid flesh of this fact. The flesh, because of this is and remains "actively" contrary to and against the Spirit. And vice versa. Gal. 5:17.

Any believer who thinks their flesh is in good standing with God isn't looking at the obvious issues with sin and it's relationship to the enemy of God, our adversary.

Smaller,
In the highlighted and underlined (mine) above, you say that there is no difference between sin and sins.
Sometimes Paul used these terms interchangeably, however, I've been taught (from a church) that SIN refers to the sin nature. We have the sin nature indwelling in us. Sins refers to the individual sins we commit because of the influence of this sin nature.

You say SIN indwells the flesh - and so it does.
Sins are what this indwelling makes us do.

I mention this only because it helps me to understand the sin nature and why we sin.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers who seek these matters through the lenses that Hollywood provides are not seeing accurately.

Our own sorry hides are against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. Our flesh doesn't care for that aspect of scripture presentations of fact. But when we see that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, and that we are sinners the scriptural math is not that difficult to see, as to WHY this conflict exists.

Everyone who claims "immunity" is not looking at their flesh accurately, or even more accurately who is behind it:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This identical depiction is made by Paul, here:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It's the same presentation here:

1 Corinthians 15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

There is a far more interesting principle in play in these matters. Many actually. Unless God in Christ Himself "allows" a believer to see this state of the flesh and the demonic impetus behind sin, they can not see or perceive any of this.

So why bring it up? Precise to provoke the "other" parties with Gods Facts, and thereby resistance shows it's face openly.

Smaller, I don't claim immunity - I just believe we have only the sin nature dwelling within us and nothing else. I'd say this is enough.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

This is an interesting statement.
Do you have Scripture to show that he existed from the beginning of time?

Hi Rollo,
Let me be more clear.
From the beginning of time could be understood to mean before anything was created by God and everything was, maybe, just a desire of His. At this point satan did not exist yet.

I meant that satan existed already when man was created, as evidenced from the interaction between satan and Eve in the Garden of Eden. By the time man was created by God in Genesis 1:27, and in more detail in Genesis 2:7-8, satan was already in existence.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Why do you willfully close you eyes to the scriptures, and what they say.

It is not pleasant for the flesh to make the conclusion that it is against and contrary to the Spirit. And it won't make that conclusion because of the fact of it.

It is by His Divine nature within us, and His power to exercise dominion over sin, that we have victory in this life having escaped the corruption of the world.

The flesh can not make that same claim. And it can not because of the operations of tempter therein. Though it likes to claim otherwise. The fact that we have to maintain "dominion" over this working shows it to be a reality in any case of sights. There is no dominion gained by claiming we have nothing to dominion over. That dominion is over our adversary. And ultimately that dominion is provided by Christ in us, resisting the evil that we do assuredly have. Romans 7:21. This built in evil is in fact demonic. Of an entity that is not us as believers. Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7, 2 Tim. 2:20-21. It is a vessel of dishonor that we are attached to in the flesh. We are called to "divide" from that vessel and it's workings. But to say we do not have this contention is futile.

Just read what the scriptures say... it is our responsibility to put to death the deeds of the flesh, BY THE SPIRIT.

This is an ongoing matter. A daily matter. 1 Cor. 15:31. Were this not necessary, were it not required because that adverse working/worker is inactive, you'd have a point. But that is not the case. We do wrestle with the devil. Eph. 6:11-12. There is a need to "overcome" him. Rev. 12:11. This is the source of "evil present" with us.

Luke 8:2
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

• We have the remedy to crucify the flesh, rendering it incapable of producing it's sinful deeds.

The flesh does not change it's state of contrariness to the Spirit or being against the Spirit and vice versa. It is and remains subject to the evil present within us and the sin that dwells in our flesh. Romans 7:17-21.

When we try to paint the entirety of ourselves with evil present and indwelling sin as all good and all that we are simply not Spiritually cognizant of the conditions of the flesh and the attendant problems of it which do not and will not change. Because these are the works of our adversary who will not change or listen.

No believer is even capable of witnessing accurately against our adversary when they can't even witness against our adversary working on themselves, in our own flesh.

A truthful witness will witness truthfully. We can not say we "have" no sin and be truthful. 1 John 1:8. And we can not say our sin is not of the devil when it is so. 1 John 3:8. It is only unfortunate when believers can not make this connection to their own sins. It speaks to Spiritual blindness in them. Nevertheless it is God who puts that spirit of slumber/stupor upon people. Romans 11:8. And it is likewise only God who can awaken us to the fact of it. Otherwise it will remain blocked from view, even though it's in plain sight to see, in writing, in the scriptures. The flesh can not see.

 

[smaller]

Smaller, I don't claim immunity - I just believe we have only the sin nature dwelling within us and nothing else. I'd say this is enough.

Wondering

Believers will blame just about anyone and anything for their own sins except the devil. They'll also excuse every internal evil thought, never knowing these things do defile us. When it comes to making that claim, that "my sin is of the devil" it is instantly offensive and I mean instantly. And meant to be so. Just try to squeeze out of your own lips, that your sin is of the devil and see how HARD it will stick in stick in the mouth, and not come out.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

When you sense the resistance to this fact, you are sensing our enemy, our adversary, fighting back, not wanting this particular fact revealed to us.

And yes, God "created the devils" to do exactly that. To resist the Truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

From the context of Jude we can see that Michael did reprimand the adversary, but did not 'demonize' him. Humans have a tendency to 'demonize' their human opponents.

Jude also mentions the grave of Moses, which confirms there was no assumption of Moses, but that he died and was buried.

It should be The Testimony of Moses.
The bible does confirm that Moses died and was buried

W

 

[GodsGrace]

ezrider

I've been looking into this matter of Jude 9 and came upon this link (on bing, I believe):

http://textexcavation.com/testamentmoses.html

It says that the argument between Michael and satan took place because satan believed all matter belonged to him - thus the body of a person; and the spiritual belongs to God.

This is gnosticism and has been condemned by the church from the very beginning at the time of the apostles. The two cannot be divided although they are separate in nature. I'm not sure this has anything to do with what we're discussing.

I'm hoping to learn why you believe the archangel Michael did not reprimand satan.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers will blame just about anyone and anything for their own sins except the devil. They'll also excuse every internal evil thought, never knowing these things do defile us. When it comes to making that claim, that "my sin is of the devil" it is instantly offensive and I mean instantly. And meant to be so. Just try to squeeze out of your own lips, that your sin is of the devil and see how HARD it will stick in stick in the mouth, and not come out.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

When you sense the resistance to this fact, you are sensing our enemy, our adversary, fighting back, not wanting this particular fact revealed to us.

And yes, God "created the devils" to do exactly that. To resist the Truth.

Who's excusing anything? I feel like a sinner and know that I am. But a forgiven one.
I believe, as you do, that sin comes from the devil.
In this sense:
All good comes from God.
All evil comes from satan.

This does not mean that satan is indwelling. It means that the sin nature is indwelling and this is controlled by satan - just as our spirit is controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that indwells a believer. JLB has provided a lot of scripture and I defer to that.

A non-believer does NOT have the Holy Spirit so this makes him a slave to sin, or the devil - as JLB has said above. This person is at the mercy of satan and battles sin constantly - there is no good in them, they are condemned at birth. Romans 5:18a

A believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling in him and is freed from the slavery to sin - but no one is free from sin. We all sin. 1 John 1:8-10
But we are now slaves to the Holy Spirit.

When a non-believer sins, satan is satisfied and feels he has won a battle.
When a believer sins, he is forgiven, Jesus covers for him, and satan experiences no victory.

I understand there to be a difference between sinning and being a slave to sin.

Wondering

 

[selihah]

Re paragraph one - yes, some on this very thread have said that the evil angels are here to carry out God's commands. But do you believe God is all-good, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Then how could He command any being to carry out evil?

Wether we are agreeable to the answer not, Elihu said suffering may be decreed for the righteous as a teachable moment, as a protection against greater sin, or moral betterment. Elihu also rejected the effort to fathom the divine wisdom and to discover the rule of its workings, these being regions into which human understanding can not penetrate. I reckon we could argue all day long why God does was He does and still never understand. Sounds like an easy way out but all I have to go on is what Elihu said of Job's situation.

 

[JLB]

It is not pleasant for the flesh to make the conclusion that it is against and contrary to the Spirit. And it won't make that conclusion because of the fact of it.

The discussion point is not about if the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, because everyone can see that is what is written.

There is no reason for you to keep saying this, as if there is anyone disagreeing.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

What you ignore is the context in which this is written... you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18


If we make the choice to walk in the Spirit, then we will not fulfill the lustful desires of the flesh.

We will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

We will not do what the flesh desires to do.

If we are walking in the Spirit, and led by the Spirit, we will be doing what the Spirit wants to do.

Read it it for yourself in black and white.

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

We know the desires of the flesh, is contrary to the desires of the Spirit.

If you walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, then you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


I advise you to obey only the Holy Spirit’s instructions. He will tell you where to go and what to do, and then you won’t always be doing the wrong things your evil nature wants you to. 17 For we naturally love to do evil things that are just the opposite from the things that the Holy Spirit tells us to do; and the good things we want to do when the Spirit has his way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures. Galatians 5:16-17 TLB



JLB

 

[JLB]

The flesh can not make that same claim.

That is why we are instructed to crucify the flesh.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no dominion gained by claiming we have nothing to dominion over. That dominion is over our adversary. And ultimately that dominion is provided by Christ in us, resisting the evil that we do assuredly have. Romans 7:21. This built in evil is in fact demonic. Of an entity that is not us as believers. Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7, 2 Tim. 2:20-21. It is a vessel of dishonor that we are attached to in the flesh. We are called to "divide" from that vessel and it's workings. But to say we do not have this contention is futile.

We don't have a vessel of dishonor "attached" to our flesh.

We ourselves are either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

If we cleanse ourselves of the latter, then we will be a vessel of honor.

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:19-22

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor.


JLB

 

[smaller]

We don't have a vessel of dishonor "attached" to our flesh.

We ourselves are either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

That's certainly not the presentation of Romans 9. Paul specifically identifies that both vessels are how God made "me," "O man," "the same lump:"

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

This answers the question of WHO did the making of both vessels. God MADE "me" thus.

How does Paul show this upon himself?

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It's the identical principle in Romans 9.

It's the identical principle Paul shows here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It's the identical principle Jesus shows here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Obviously there are two vessels. Two separate and distinct parties that are not the same.

This IS how man is "made" by God.

Paul again shows this identical principle here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

And here:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Same identical principle shown by John here:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus encountered literally THOUSANDS of devils and Satan in man in the N.T. Gospels. The pages are filled with these types of engagements.

And yes, God made all things. Devils did not create or make themselves.

Colossians 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And that would also include these powers, dominions [rulers] and principalities:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It is God Himself that has made and set this wrestling match, and PUT IT IN OUR OWN FLESH.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

 

[smaller]

That is why we are instructed to crucify the flesh.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

JLB

We've already covered this exercise. It's not a "one and done" deal. Paul presents a "daily death" is required, because indwelling sin/evil present is quite active and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17

 

[smaller]

What you ignore is the context in which this is written... you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

And what you fail to understand is that the flesh always lusts against the Spirit. That contrariness doesn't cease being contrary to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If anyone thinks this contrariness doesn't exist in their flesh, rinse and repeat the exercise above. That contrariness doesn't change or go away.

 

[JLB]

And what you fail to understand is that the flesh always lusts against the Spirit. That contrariness doesn't cease being contrary to the Spirit.

That's why we are told to walk in the Spirit, SO THAT, we won't do what the flesh,[which is contrary to the Spirit] wants to do.

These are contrary to each other.

You either obey what the flesh wants to do, which is express it's sinful desires, or you obey the Spirit, so that you express the righteous desires of the Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18

Those who obey the sinful desires of the flesh, [which is contrary to the Spirit] will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who crucify the flesh, [which is contrary to the Spirit] and walk in the Spirit, are sons of God, and these inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[smaller]

That's why we are told to walk in the Spirit, SO THAT, we won't do what the flesh,[which is contrary to the Spirit] wants to do.

At least we got that far. No actions eliminate the above.