n2thelight
Member
In the world according to who?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Who created Satan?
- Thread starter Taniesh
- Start date
In the world according to who?
n2thelight
Member
I'm not testy at all,guess that's the problem,interpreting scripture,which should'nt be different.Yet I also know,not all for their own good will understand.
My point is and always will be why are we here in the first place?
You remember the verse where God said it grieved Him to make man flesh,should'nt that tell you that man was not always flesh?
Do you understand that Christ became flesh for us
You all say God knows who we shall choose,I say He don't,if that were the case Id say we serve a cruel God,and I know that's not true.
There's no purpose in this life what so ever if He already knows our choice!!!!
Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Jim Parker
Member
It is a basic tenet of Christianity that God is omniscient; He knows everything including who will believe and who won't.
People often confuse KNOWING who will believe with CAUSING them to believe. (or not believe)
If God causes some to believe and prevents others fro believing, then, yes, God would be a monster.
But god doesn't force anyone to do anything. He gave us free will and He lets us make our own choices.
My story - I'm stickin' to it
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
The point is that YOU don't know your choices until you make them.
God's purpose for everyone is that they be exactly like Jesus.
Most people can't come up with a purpose.
n2thelight
Member
So His pleasure is for us (some)to suffer?Can't agree with that,I can from the stand point of the beginning,and Im not talking about the Garden
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The above is the beginning,millions of years before the Garden,before satans rebellion.
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n2thelight
Member
See nobody understands what Im saying ,and that is had satan not rebelled,Christ would not have had to come and die on the cross....
n2thelight
Member
So why go through this,as Ive said earlier,if He knows?
Freewill is not, if He knows the choice,no purpose
End it all now and put the earth back like it was before satans rebellion
When do you think satan rebelled?
n2,
It makes it difficult to understand when you say things like, 'that is had satan not rebelled'. That doesn't make sense to me. However, the inclusion of a comma does make sense, ''that is, had satan not rebelled'.
If you are saying that if Satan had not rebelled, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross, I agree.
But that's a hypothetical argument from silence. That did not happen and God in his foreknowledge knew what Satan would do and what human beings would do in response. But that does not make God the cause of Satan's downfall.
Oz
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Mike
Member
This highlights the problem with basing theology on one verse. And this is an important aspect of God's nature to be seeking. This Isaiah 45:7 would be contrary to the rest of scripture if "evil" in this case meant Satan or an influence that draws His Creation from Himself, but it doesn't if you consider it as the NASB translates it.
"The One forming light and creating darkness causing well being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these."
John 1:5 says there is no darkness in Him at all, and we know from the account of creation, all that He Created was good.
Mike,
The issue surrounds the translation of the Hebrew, ra, in Isa 45:7. Is it 'evil' as in KJV or 'calamity' as in NASB and ESV?
Isaiah 45:7 reads: ‘I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity. I am the LORD who does all these things’ (ESV).
I have found Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe’s response to this verse to be most helpful (Geisler & Howe 1992:271-272):
ISAIAH 45:7 – Is God the author of evil?
PROBLEM: According to this verse (Is. 45:7), God “creates good and evil” (kjv, cf. Jer. 18:11 and Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But many other Scriptures inform us that God is not evil (1 John 1:5), cannot even look approvingly on evil (Hab. 1:13), and cannot even be tempted by evil (James 1:13).
SOLUTION: The Bible is clear that God is morally perfect (cf. Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48), and it is impossible for Him to sin (Heb. 6:18). At the same time, His absolute justice demands that He punish sin. This judgment takes both temporal and eternal forms (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15). In its temporal form, the execution of God’s justice is sometimes called “evil” because it seems to be evil to those undergoing it (cf. Heb. 12:11). However, the Hebrew word for evil (ra) used here does not always mean moral evil. Indeed, the context indicates that it should be translated, as the nkjv and other modern translations do, as “calamity.” Thus, God is properly said to be the author of “evil” in this sense, but not in the moral sense—at least not directly.
Further, there is an indirect sense in which God is the author of moral evil. God created moral beings with free choice, and free choice is the origin of moral evil in the universe. So, ultimately God is responsible for making moral creatures who are responsible for moral evil. God made evil possible by creating free creatures, but the free creatures made evil actual. Of course, the possibility of evil (i.e., free choice) is itself a good thing. So, God created only good things, one of which was the power of free choice, and moral creatures produced the evil. However, God is the author of a moral universe and in this indirect and ultimate sense is the author of the possibility of evil. Of course, God only permitted evil, but does not promote it, and He will ultimately produce a greater good through it (cf. Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21–22).
PROBLEM: According to this verse (Is. 45:7), God “creates good and evil” (kjv, cf. Jer. 18:11 and Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But many other Scriptures inform us that God is not evil (1 John 1:5), cannot even look approvingly on evil (Hab. 1:13), and cannot even be tempted by evil (James 1:13).
SOLUTION: The Bible is clear that God is morally perfect (cf. Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48), and it is impossible for Him to sin (Heb. 6:18). At the same time, His absolute justice demands that He punish sin. This judgment takes both temporal and eternal forms (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15). In its temporal form, the execution of God’s justice is sometimes called “evil” because it seems to be evil to those undergoing it (cf. Heb. 12:11). However, the Hebrew word for evil (ra) used here does not always mean moral evil. Indeed, the context indicates that it should be translated, as the nkjv and other modern translations do, as “calamity.” Thus, God is properly said to be the author of “evil” in this sense, but not in the moral sense—at least not directly.
Further, there is an indirect sense in which God is the author of moral evil. God created moral beings with free choice, and free choice is the origin of moral evil in the universe. So, ultimately God is responsible for making moral creatures who are responsible for moral evil. God made evil possible by creating free creatures, but the free creatures made evil actual. Of course, the possibility of evil (i.e., free choice) is itself a good thing. So, God created only good things, one of which was the power of free choice, and moral creatures produced the evil. However, God is the author of a moral universe and in this indirect and ultimate sense is the author of the possibility of evil. Of course, God only permitted evil, but does not promote it, and He will ultimately produce a greater good through it (cf. Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21–22).
GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
In the sense of sin: Moral evil, Perversity, Directly
GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
Actuality of evil In the sense of calamity, Non-moral, evil Plagues, Indirectly, Possibility of evil
This is taken from my article, Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?
See also, Did God create evil?
Oz
Works consulted
Geisler, N. L., & Howe, T. A. 1992. When critics ask:A popular handbook on Bible difficulties. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.
n2,
Is this the verse to which you refer: 'The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled' (Gen 6:6 NIV).
I do wish you would provide Bible references to the verses to which you refer.
Where in Scripture do you find that theology?
Oz
Mike
Member
Nice post, Oz. I read about "ra" being translated to "evil" but actually being more closely aligned with "calamity", but I couldn't find a source that confirmed if "ra" was in the original text. The sources I found only speculated that it was and pointed to the NASB.
This is much more in line with the rest of scripture that opposes the idea that God created evil.
n2thelight
Member
This is our difference,I think God knew satan could sin,(free will)but not that he would...
What do you mean,humans response?
satans sin was before we were made flesh
Thanks, Mike,
There are parallel emphases of ra as evil vs calamity in Isa 31:2; 47:11; and Amos 3:6.
Westermann made an interesting comment: 'If the creator of evil and woe is God, there is no room left for a devil' (in Grogan 1986:271). Hebrew expositor, H C Leupold, summarises the issues well:
The form in which this claim was cast in the old King James version could well prove disturbing, when it said: "I make peace and create evil." although the Hebrew would allow for such a translation. But it is not the morally good and the morally evil that are said to lie totally in his power, as far as their physical aspects and consequences are concerned. The RSV version does full justice to the issues involved when it says, "I make weal and create woe." Note similar statements in Amos 3:6b; and Isa. 14:24-27 (Leupold 1971:2.122).
Oz
Works consulted
Grogan, G W 1986. Isaiah, in F E Gaebelein (gen ed), The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol 6, 1-354. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Regency Reference Library (Zondervan Publishing House).
Leupold, H C 1971. Exposition of Isaiah (2 vols in 1). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.
n2,
When you are in the 'I think' mode, you are producing your opinion. Let's check what Scripture says about God's foreknowledge:
“Remember this, keep it in mind,
take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
what I have planned, that I will do (Isa 46:8-11 NIV).
take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
what I have planned, that I will do (Isa 46:8-11 NIV).
Since God knows the end from the beginning for all beings, including Satan, angels human beings and all living things, that means God could not only think Satan could sin but that he would sin.
He knows what has happened and what you and I will do now and in the future because he makes known 'from ancient times, what is still to come. Nothing you or I could say or do will change God's foreknowledge. His purpose will stand and God will do all that He pleases.
We dare not reduce God to 'I think'. We must exalt his attribute of foreknowledge.
Psalm 139:4 (NLT) could not state it clearer: 'You know what I am going to say even before I say it, LORD'. That verse explains your question about human response. Before you say anything, God knows what you will say before you say it. What an amazing God we have!
You say, 'Satans sin was before we were made flesh'. What has that to do with God's foreknowledge and what God knows from ancient past, knows now and knows in the future?
Oz