Who I believe God’s elect are

[John Zain]

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Please see post #2
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[John Zain]

Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that God is omni-everything.
He knows everything (past, present, future), He sees the end from the beginning, etc.

It is my belief that God predestines, elects, calls, justifies, and glorifies ONLY the elect ...
ONLY those people whose hearts are willing to be sanctified (set apart and made holy) by God.

Scripture describes man as being totally sinful, rebellious, at enmity with God, etc.
but evidently some do not quite fit this mold.
Maybe God actually predestines them to be molded (i.e. created) this way.

Romans 9:11, 9:16, etc. says election is nothing about what people will DO after they are born.

The elect …
8:28 … love God
8:28 ... are the called according to God's purpose
8:29 … are foreknown
8:29 … are predestined to be conformed (i.e. sanctified) to the likeness of the sinless/holy Jesus
8:30 … are predestined, called, justified, glorified

This rare and unusual heart attitude of being willing to be sanctified agrees with …

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to (eternal) life,
and there are few who find it.

 

[smaller]

I have personally found a considerable amount of 'flaws of reason and logic' in many determinism camps regarding the subject of the elect.

A big flaw imho is to take determinism as a position and then personally or by 'group understandings' determine for The Determiner.

Just taking on the 'correct' position of Determinism automatically relegates the entirety of the subject matter only unto The Determinist Himself.

So, determinism smacks into a big wall of scriptural facts, right here:

Psalm 40:5
Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The determinist adherent then, should really 'know their place' in these matters. We are in fact NOT thee Determiner, our thoughts are not His Thoughts and His Ways are not 'our ways.'

The 'elect' as God sees could very well be the exact opposite of what 'personal claimaints' to being 'one' really are.

for examples:

The MEEK:

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The POOR:

Job 34:28
So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.

Job 36:6
He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The AFFLICTED:

Psalm 18:27
For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

Proverbs 15:15
All the days of the afflicted are evil

The HUNGRY:

Luke 1:53
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty
away.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

The PRISONERS:

Isaiah 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Psalm 146:7
Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:

The NAKED:

Isaiah 58:7
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

I could go on.

The above are 'WHO' the Lord Elects. And this admittedly by my own very poor partial sight, as His Election Process is admittedly FAR FAR Greater than I could possibly see:

The 'elect' are also far from trumpeting their own merits, as they come from Gods Election Course here stated:

1 Cor. 1:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Determination and election may in fact be the exact opposite of what many present. Isaiah for example walked around NAKED and BAREFOOT in public for 3 years. Anybody hear that CALLING and ELECTION? Get the picture?

I do believe 'any ELECT' has a big handful and mouthful of these FACTS:

Revelation 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Claimants to the 'elect' who say "I'm safe and sound" and need NOTHING?

Prolly not as 'elect' as they perceive.

But, hey, God is Merciful to the ignorant as well:

Hebrews 5:2
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

Here's one..

The Lord Jesus Christ.. the chosen one in whom the Father delights..

 

[John Zain]

Smaller,

I'd say the people whom you have listed fall into this category ...
people whose hearts are willing to be sanctified (set apart and made holy) by God,
i.e. the poor in various ways, the afflicted, the humble, the meek, etc.

 

[Scootaloo]

I don't think that there are elect the way most people mean it. The elect that I believe in are the ones who follow Christ's word and are faithful from birth to death, rather than just being born into predestination.

 

[Fedusenko]

Scootaloo, I like your comment almost as much as I like your flying pony that farts hearts! It makes me smile very big.

EDIT: Your avatar is less awesome now that you have changed it.

 

[John Zain]

Welcome to my latest effort ... please proceed with much caution:

Conditional election
(A) - God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth: sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(B) - But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people†(Revelation 2:23).
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts†(1 Chr. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit†(Isaiah 57:15).
And there are many verses which talk of other attributes which are pleasing to God, such as:
-- a repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary.
-- the "poor" (in many various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude.
(C) - Does God actually create His elect to be: loving God, meek, humble, repentant, etc.?
I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.

Free will
God knows that whom He has elected will choose to be sanctified (try hard to be made holy and sinless).
I.E. God's foreseeing/foreknowledge concerning the above determined WHO He elected.
"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).
"... that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (Colossians 1:28).

God's true elect
"God knows those who are His." (2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who were willing to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" in Revelation 2-3.
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Please see my changes in post #11.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

I'd say the people whom you have listed fall into this category ...
people whose hearts are willing to be sanctified (set apart and made holy) by God,
i.e. the poor in various ways, the afflicted, the humble, the meek, etc.

I'll address in brief some of the open frailties of the positions you put up (which same I TOTALLY agree with if properly divided!) in the next post.

s

 

[smaller]

Welcome to my latest effort ... please proceed with much caution:

Conditional election
(A) - God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth: sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(B) - But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people†(Revelation 2:23).
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts†(1 Chr. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit†(Isaiah 57:15).
And there are many verses which talk of other attributes which are pleasing to God, such as:
-- a repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary.
-- the "poor" (in many various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude.
(C) - Does God actually create His elect to be: loving God, meek, humble, repentant, etc.?
I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.

The continual weakness in all such claims above is the nearly complete vacancy of the working of temptation, which same is of the tempter. This matter for some reason is constantly overlooked by 'most believers' doctrinal systems and brings some serious matters to the table. In every one of the above claims no mention of this factual matter is addressed or spoken of. I just can not view any doctrine apart from accounting for that working 'in believers.'

In classic Calvin determinism, Calvin is very right about the total depravity of mankind, yet Calvin himself makes almost no account about 'why' this is so. Yet it is so easy to see if the tempter both tempts and blinds, this places the tempter 'with' and 'within' the man depraved to do so. Where then is Calvins full spectrum of vision? It's primarily only on MAN when that is provably and factually not the case whatsoever.

Free will
But, these people above may (or may not) choose to go along with God's sanctification process
(to be made more holy and sinless), which is performed by the precious Holy Spirit.

The same 'objection' to free will comes into play on the same grounds. None of us can logically claim to be free of temptation 'in mind' pre or post salvation and it is impossible to slice out the tempter from this equation. No one by any exercise of will is able to stop from being tempted, though many claim that to be a fact. I can't see it because any casual check on the inside in honesty will reveal that I do have temptation thoughts, sin thoughts, evil thoughts. I can't honestly say I don't have these and I can't say that they are not in some way both 'internal' and connected therefore to the tempter.

God's true elect
"God knows those who are His." (2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who choose to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" in Revelation 2-3.
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.

All of such claims remain largely void of encompassing fact.

It is quite easy for me to point to open statements from the Apostles, such as Paul, in claiming he both 'did evil' and had 'evil present with him,' even a DEVIL. So what applies to Paul as a believer would in no way apply to the 'messenger of Satan' that was also upon and with Paul. The identical problem as noted above is openly show to be a fact with the Apostles.

John also makes an almost identical track where he says in 1 John 8 that we 'can not say we have no sin' as a present tense matter (have, not had) and in 1 John 3:8 where John states that 'he who commits sin is of the DEVIL.'

All of these facts, personally applied by the Apostles to 'their own condition' pinpoints directly to Jesus' Own stated TRUTH right here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Now, anyone can read these facts. To me they are clear. We all have sin, sin originates within via 'evil sinning thoughts' which defile us because they are SIN, and SIN is of the DEVIL, the tempter.

I find all of these statements quite consistent with each others and applicable to 'believers.' Therefore I can not in honesty encompass the 'tempter' and his workings in believers with GRACE, nor can I believe that presence can be 'legally obedient' as that is just not possible.

There is always an inherent press for us to 'not take these facts' into account personally as believers and to try to 'isolate' ourselves from these matters as a present working fact of darkness within us. It does not and can not compute to see any doctrinal set apart from these facts.

Factor these into any view you may hold to for yourself, and I will simply observe that any such measures can not logically extend to 'the other factual working and entity' that is not you or I as believers.

enjoy!

s

 

[John Zain]

Welcome to my next effort ... again please proceed with extreme caution:

Unconditional election
(A) -- God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth: sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(B) -- But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:
“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people†(Revelation 2:23).
“... the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts†(1 Chron. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit†(Isaiah 57:15).
And there are many verses concerning other attributes which are pleasing to God,
such as a repentant heart towards Him, which is absolutely necessary.
(C) -- Question: Does God actually create His elect with such attributes as: love God, meek, humble,
repentant, etc.? I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.

Free will
God knows that whom He has elected will choose to be sanctified (try hard to be made holy and sinless).
I.E. God's foreseeing/foreknowledge concerning the above determined WHO He elected.
"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).
"... that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (Colossians 1:28).

God's true elect
"... the solid foundation of God stands ... “The Lord knows those who are His†(2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who were willing to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" in Revelation 2-3.
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Zain]

The continual weakness in all such claims above is the nearly complete vacancy of the working
of temptation, which same is of the tempter. This matter for some reason is constantly
overlooked by 'most believers' doctrinal systems and brings some serious matters to the table.
In every one of the above claims no mention of this factual matter is addressed or spoken of.
I just cannot view any doctrine apart from accounting for that working 'in believers.'

Sure, but my point is that God foresees who have the right heart attitude
to co-operate with the Holy Spirit ... and follow Him in rejecting Satan.

We are told to take every thought (from God, Satan, and self) captive
... and to filter it through the Word.
We would not be told to do so, if it were not possible.

Also, we don't have to be absolutely perfect in our results,
for it's the sincere and serious effort that makes us perfect in God's sight.

 

[smaller]

Sure, but my point is that God foresees who have the right heart attitude
to co-operate with the Holy Spirit ... and follow Him in rejecting Satan.

As noted prior, we as believers can take just about anything on the good side of the ledgers to ourselves, but that does not speak to the entirety of what goes on 'within' us all on the 'tempter' side of the ledgers. What applies to us doesn't apply whatsoever to the other working.

We are told to take every thought (from God, Satan, and self) captive
... and to filter it through the Word.
We would not be told to do so, if it were not possible.

Also, we don't have to be absolutely perfect in our results,
for it's the sincere and serious effort that makes us perfect in God's sight.

You remain missing the simplicity of the observation. You can do and claim whatever you want as a believer. None of that will apply the same way to the tempter.

Where you say 'we don't have to be perfect' I may view that as a simple excuse to bypass the operations of the tempter.

There is a simple principle of simultaneous but conflicting truths that are brought forth in the text. What applies to a believer will avail the tempter exactly nothing.

Same Word, fully effective for one, fully condemning for the other. Both heard in the same ears.

s

 

[John Zain]

smallest,

I see you believing that Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit,
and
I see you considering ALL of the many exhortations to overcome Satan as being useless.

 

[childeye]

smallest,

I see you believing that Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit,
and
I see you considering ALL of the many exhortations to overcome Satan as being useless.

Pardon my interruption but I don't see smaller saying that. I see him saying that while he agrees with you, you do not discuss the mechanics of how it works and why they work that way. That is why he speaks of the temptor as a power seperate from us yet in us. Call it pride or ego. For instance you speak in another post of the right heart attitude without describing what that attitude is comprised of or why it is more prevalent in some and not in others.

It must be pointed out that the Christ is the power of creation dropped into the middle of the creation which puts all destined paths from the beginning subject to the possibility of change without incorporating what we mean by the terms freewill or determinism. Or at least these terms are compromised to some degree.

 

[John Zain]

Pardon my interruption but I don't see smaller saying that. I see him saying that while he agrees with you, you do not discuss the mechanics of how it works and why they work that way. That is why he speaks of the temptor as a power seperate from us yet in us. Call it pride or ego. For instance you speak in another post of the right heart attitude without describing what that attitude is comprised of or why it is more prevalent in some and not in others.
It must be pointed out that the Christ is the power of creation dropped into the middle of the creation which puts all destined paths from the beginning subject to the possibility of change without incorporating what we mean by the terms freewill or determinism. Or at least these terms are compromised to some degree.

Upon further reflection, I have absolutely no idea what smaller is talking about.
But, it certainly is not taught in the NT.

 

[childeye]

Upon further reflection, I have absolutely no idea what smaller is talking about.
But, it certainly is not taught in the NT.

For whatever worth my evaluations are, many are the good things you say in your posts, so keep saying them. This one however is not so good. Respectfully, it is difficult to ascertain how you can have no idea what he's talking about and yet be definitive that it is not in the New Testament.

I am no different than you. At first I found it hard to understand what smaller was saying in his posts, for his perspective of God is unique. None of us here always understand one another, perhaps even seldom do we ever completely. For some are speaking from lofty vision only wanting to share it with someone yet they fall short because words are inadequate. And others may not even have enough of the big picture to accommodate their desire to share. And yet God draws praise from the mouths of babes and hides things from the learned and scholarly. Blessed be His ways and blessed be you.

 

[smaller]

smallest,

I see you believing that Satan is more powerful than the Holy Spirit,
and
I see you considering ALL of the many exhortations to overcome Satan as being useless.

Method: belittle/make strawman (marked)

I've said nothing of the sort.

Scriptural facts are much harder to dodge.
s

 

[Eventide]

Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth...

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God.

I am not the elect, you are not the elect, there's not a single person in Adam who is the elect of God.. for the same applies to each and every one of us.. if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it, and if we lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it..

It's that simple.

People are referred to as the elect because of one reason.. they are IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect of God..

People talk about election til they're blue in the face and rarely (if at all) talk about the one who is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom the Father delights.. regardless.. this thread will go on and on and on and people will continue to think that they are the elect..

Amazing imo..

 

[childeye]

Re: Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth...

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God.

I am not the elect, you are not the elect, there's not a single person in Adam who is the elect of God.. for the same applies to each and every one of us.. if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it, and if we lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it..

It's that simple.

People are referred to as the elect because of one reason.. they are IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect of God..

People talk about election til they're blue in the face and rarely (if at all) talk about the one who is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom the Father delights.. regardless.. this thread will go on and on and on and people will continue to think that they are the elect..


Amazing imo..

I admire this "your forthrightness". But, why does scripture indicate the elect of God are individuals? After all we aren't Bhuddists.