Who is Israel?

[Drew]

Well, a discussion concerning the place of those OT quotes would be interesting, but Drew, I must admit that I have not seen evidence in your writings that you have the ability to grasp the issues of such a discussion.

Given how the discussion of the meaning of the gospel went, I am surprised that you make such a statement. In that context, I successfully argued against your assertion about the meaning of term "gospel" as used by Paul. So I should think a little more humility is called for on your part. Why make such dismissive statements as the above?.

Feel free to continue your pulling a phrase here, and a word there, and importing meaning into the text.

I suggest that this oft-repeated claim of yours is put forward when you are faced with a convincing argument that you cannot, or will not refute. If you think that you can demonstrate any context where I have argued improperly, please bring that I up and I will gladly consider it.

I will commit to engaging arguments, not poeple. Will you do likewise?

 

[Drew]

And here is another reference to "true" Israel:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

Although Paul does not use the term "Israel" here, he is clearly saying that the "true" people of God - that is the true Israel - are a group other than those who are traditionally held to be the people of God - national Israel.

And, of course, there are Jews in both groups. One can be a member of national Israel and a member of true Israel. Paul is one example.

* Second, If the 4 OT quotations are studied as a unit, they cannot apply to a concept of Gentile salvation.

This is so demonstrably untrue, I suspect that you did not mean what you wrote here. Paul, at this point in his Romans 9 argument is clearly making a case that God has extended salvation to to the Gentiles:

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

There is no doubt - The "as he says" phrase in verse 25 seals the deal. His Hosea quote amplifies what he has just said about how the Gentiles are included in the embrace of God's redemptive plan.

 

[Drew]

* First, the rhetorical structure of ch 9 takes 9:6 as the antecedent of all 4 scriptural quotations.

Please substantiate this claim.

*I mentioned before that verse 24 is the end of a sentence from verses 22 and 23. So then verse 24 the OT quotes following verse 24 are not referring to verse 24 but 9:6. Verse 24 relates to the statements in 22-23.

This is clearly implausible. No competent writer would say what is said in 22-24, and then follow it with an "As he says" (in verse 25) and not expect the reader to think that what has just been written is about to be qualified.

Clearly, verse 25 is an amplification of what Paul has just written in verses 22-24. If you wish to pursue this, I am happy to fill in the case in more detail.

all 4 quotations can apply to a concept of regenerate genetic Israel within genetic Israel

How can this possibly be so, given that verses 22-24 unambiguously identify the Gentile as being with the redemptive plans of God.

 

[Drew]

It is because, as we see in Romans 5 to 8, Paul believes that covenant promises, seemingly made to Abraham in his role as father of national Israel, were in fact never made to national Israel at all, but rather made to Abraham in his role as father of "true" Israel.

A mere assumption. Although you might consider this to be your very specific evidence.

The evidence is there and it is clear:

What are the covenant promises made to Israel? They are summarized in 9:4 and 5. In this post, I will deal with the first three:

....the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen

Consider the sonship blessing. What has Paul said about the Jew + Gentile family of God in Romans 8?

14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.

Consider the "glory" blessing. What has Paul said about the Jew + Gentile family of God in Romans 5?:

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

And what has Paul said about the Jew+Gentile family of God in Romans 8?:

17Now if we are children, then we are heirsâ€â€heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory

Consider the "covenant" blessing. What has Paul said about the Jew + Gentile family of God in Romans 4?:

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

What is this promise? It is the promise set forth in the context of the covenant in Genesis 17:

As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
5"No longer shall your name be called [a]Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations

There is lots more, which I plan to post on later.

Paul knows what he is doing - he systematicallly ascribes all the covenant promises over to the "true" Israel - the family of Jew + Gentile believers.

 

[brakelite2]

I could not view the videos, so please excuse me if the following is in any way off topic, although in guageing the replies I think not.
The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharoah in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharoah 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)
It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathews inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Coll 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.
Jesus Himself procalimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.
What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed".

 

[mondar]

Given how the discussion of the meaning of the gospel went, I am surprised that you make such a statement. In that context, I successfully argued against your assertion about the meaning of term "gospel" as used by Paul. So I should think a little more humility is called for on your part. Why make such dismissive statements as the above?.

Concerning your denial of the gospel in our previous discussions, I think you confuse having the last word with winning the argument.

 

[mondar]

*I mentioned before that verse 24 is the end of a sentence from verses 22 and 23. So then verse 24 the OT quotes following verse 24 are not referring to verse 24 but 9:6. Verse 24 relates to the statements in 22-23.

This is clearly implausible. No competent writer would say what is said in 22-24, and then follow it with an "As he says" (in verse 25) and not expect the reader to think that what has just been written is about to be qualified.

Clearly, verse 25 is an amplification of what Paul has just written in verses 22-24. If you wish to pursue this, I am happy to fill in the case in more detail.

Your entire error here is that you fail to see 9:6 for what it is. 9:6 is a topic sentence of the entire Chapter.

all 4 quotations can apply to a concept of regenerate genetic Israel within genetic Israel

How can this possibly be so, given that verses 22-24 unambiguously identify the Gentile as being with the redemptive plans of God.[/quote]

I dont intend to bother with the volumes of drivel that you posted. Again, what you do is pick a phrase here, then go off on a tangent to some actual covenant material that is not being quoted in Romans 4.

However, I am willing to take an hour of my time and make a statement on the Rhetorical Structure of Romans 9.

 

[mondar]

TOPIC SENTENCE --- True Israel is the Elect Believing Jews.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
As I have been suggesting that this is the real topic of Chapter 9. It is the question Paul is addressing. Paul begins this topic sentence by stating But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought The reader should first be asking what "word of God" could be coming to nothing. Paul is referring to verses 4-5 and the promises, covenants, and all the spiritual blessings given to the Jews in the Old Testament. These promises were given to the Jewish nation. If the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, Jesus, then the natural question of the Jew would be exactly what Paul says. The question on the Jewish mind would be "If God promised all these things to the Jewish nation, and we rejected the Messiah, then have not the promises of God come to nothing?"

This question is answered in the 2nd part of the sentence. God will fulfill his promises to "true Israel." Notice how Paul defines "true Israel." If verse 6 is the topic sentence, it is here that we find the definition for "true Israel." True Israel does not include unbelieving Jews. Paul says For they are not all Israel. The question is who is he talking about. Who is "not Israel?" He is speaking of unbelieving Jews. The concept of an unbelieving Jews is to be demonstrated by the concept of Election. In this part of the verse, Paul is saying that only believing Jews are elect Jews, and only these believing elect Jews will inherit the promises, covenants, and blessings.

Observation----Notice first of all that the concept of covenant is not central to the issue of the topic sentence. Certainly the concept of Covenant is involved, but it is not the issue. The issue is who is elect Israel, who is "true Israel." True Israel in verse 6 does not involve Gentiles, but only believing Jews.

FIRST ILLUSTRATION --- In the birth of the Children of Abraham, only Isaac was the elect son, the "true Israel."
Rom 9:7 neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
First, notice the statement in verse 7. Paul says that all of Abraham's seed is not the "True Israel," All of Abrahams seed Abrahams seed is not elect Israel. Only one certain individual is elect. Ishmael was not elect, the sons of Kuturah were not elect, only Isaac. So Paul writes "neither, because they are Abraham's seed. Ishamael was not elect because he was Abraham's seed.

Verse 8 has the application Paul draws. it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God Ishmael and the sons of Kuturah were all children of Abraham (of his fleshly body). But not elect sons.

Now why is verse 7-9 a merely illustration of verse 6? Notice how this ties directly into the statements of 9:6. 9:6 says there is a "true Israel" within genetic fleshly national Israel. Just as Isaac was the elect offspring, there were true believing Jewish people that were the "true Israel." Verses 7-9 can only be seen as a mere illustration of the principle and topic sentence in verse 6. The birth of Ishmael shows that "they are not all Israel who are Israel." Ishmael was of Abraham, but he was not elect.

SECOND ILLUSTRATION --- In the next generation, the generation of Isaac and his sons, again the concept of election within the nation of Israel is demonstrated.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac -
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
There is no new topic here either. This is again merely an illustration of the principle in 9:6. The election of Jacob as the elect seed is the same as the concept of "true Israel." The fact that Esau was of the genetic offspring of Isaac did not establish Esau as a part of election. It did not establish Esau as a part of the covenants and promises, and all the things found in 9:4-5. These belong only to the line of Jacob. Interestingly enough, another name for Jacob is "Israel." There is something new stressed in the illustration. The concept that this election, the establishment of a "true Israel" is not by works. Election is never by works. No work done by man can cause his election. That is Gods sovereign choice.

Observation -- So far all illustrations merely illustrate the principle found in Romans 9:6. The principle of 9:6 and a true believing elect Israel within Genetic fleshly Israel is remains the subject of both illustrations.

QUESTION #1 -- Now Paul is going to test the principle found in 9:6 with two questions. In the case of both questions, he will allow the principle of 9:6 to stand.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
Rom 9:18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

The question is found in verse 14. The question in verse 14 relates to 9:6. If God made promises to Israel and Judah, and Paul says that the promises do not relate to unbelieving Jews, and they relate only to elect Jews (the true Israel), then is this unrighteousness with God? This is often the reason so many non-Calvinists hate the doctrine of election. This is what underlies their very objection. If God does not give everyone a fair chance, can he really be just and righteous? Can God elect some Jews, and not others and still fulfill his promises?

The first part of Paul's answer (in vs 15) is a quote from the book of Exodus. God claims he can show Mercy to whom he pleases. God is under no obligation to show mercy to anyone. If there were 10 murder/rapists on death row, and the governor chose 2 and had mercy and pardoned them, would this mean he was not just or righteous for showing mercy to the other 8? Some might answer that they will get what they deserve. The Governor is not obligated to show mercy to any of the 10. Neither is God under any obligation to pardon anyone for their sin. He can show mercy to those whom he elects to show mercy. He can elect Isaac, he can elect Jacob, and not elect Ishmael or Esau. And also, all the way back in 9:6 he can show mercy to some Jews (the true Israel) and not other Jews (fleshly Israel).

In verse 16 he answer the question of verse 14 by saying that election is not of mans will, but of the will of God. None of true Israel becomes true Israel by their own will, but by the will of God. This of course is obvious. Was Jacob present with God before his birth?

Verse 17 is an illustration of unbelieving Israel. Just as he raised up unbelieving Jews to reject the messiah and become unbelieving Israel, God raised up pharaoh to attempt to repress Israel. What did God do to harden Pharaoh's heart? He "raised him up." God did not need to magicly harden Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh was sinful and rebellious enough. God merely needed to raise him to power to cause Pharaoh's heart to become more rebellious. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Verse 18 is the conclusion to the question. God is sovereign.

OBSERVATION --- Paul is still working with the principle laid down in 9:6. Even by verse 18 we are still talking about a "true Israel" within the general circle of the genetic nation of Israel.

QUESTION #2 --- Verse 19 contains a 2nd question. This question relates to verse 6 by asking about those unbelieving Jews that are not elect. If God hardened the hearts of Jews to reject the Messiah in 9:6, and only elected some Jews, why are the Jews who rejected the Messiah guilty?
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

If God hardens some Jews as stated above, and shows Mercy to others, how can he condemn those whom he hardened? Again, I feel like Paul is arguing against Arminianism or the more modern Pelagianism. The essence of Pauls defense is that we are Gods creation and he can make pots as he pleases.

This of course is still related to 9:6. God can make a division within Israel and make some Jews into a "true Israel" and harden the hearts of other Jews, because he is the potter. Some Jews he will make into pots fitted for destruction, other Jews will be objects of Mercy. Why? Why can God simply claim this right as creator? It is because he made all creation for his glory! Notice why he makes pots fitted for destruction! For his glory to manifest wrath upon sin. And for his glory to manifest his longsuffering with those rebellious sinners. Was God longsuffering when Israel rejected her Messiah? The time of greatest evil when the son of God was being wickedly slain in the most horrible death, and what did God do? The world should have been destroyed in that instant, yet God was longsuffering to his own glory.

When we get to verse 24, this is the first mention of Gentiles. Now for the question!!! Does verse 24 overturn the meaning of the entire context and somehow absurdly turn the meaning of 9:6 on its head? Or is verse 24 the end of the sentence in verses 22-24. Can someone please look in verse 24 and tell me where the beginning of the sentence is? Is verse 24 merely the end of the sentence, or is it a new topic sentence by itself that overturns the entire context. So far, the entire context is going back to 9:6. We have 2 illustrations based upon 9:6. We have 2 questions based upon 9:6. Now after all this context going back to the topic sentence in 9:6 am I to make this leap of logic and think that Paul is overturning the meaning of the context in verse 24? Certainly not! Paul is not establishing a new topic. He is not changing the topic of the context. He is merely making mention that the thing that is true of "true Israel" is also true of Gentiles. In verse 24 Paul is saying Gentiles are saved in the same way "True Israel" is saved. He is not saying they become part of "True Israel" but merely that they experience the same identical things that "true Israel" experiences. The only difference is that Gentiles are not geneticly of Abraham. We have Abraham as our spiritual father, because he is the father of all those who have faith, but that does not make us "true Israel." Verse 24 says we who are not genetically Israel, are still pots of mercy just as happens in the real "true Israel"

PAUL'S SCRIPTURAL PROOFTEXTS --- No for the finale. Paul has so far given us two illustrations of 9:6, he has given us two questions or objections of the principle in 9:6, and now he gives us the scriptural prooftexts for the principle in 9:6.

OBSERVATION--- This is where Drew and some differ. They prefer to cut the sentence in 9:22-24 in half and take the last part, and then make it the topic of the entire passage. Then they redefine "true ISrael" as including Gentiles, rather then saying God did the same thing spiritually among gentiles.

Since there are 4 scriptural proof texts of the principle in 9:6 I will take each one separately.

PROOF TEXT 1 ---- Romans 25
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.

Romans 9:25 is a quote of Hosea. This could become an entire treatise in itself. Nevertheless, let me briefly state that in the context of Hosea, the people that God "will call that my people." Is a future repentant genetic group of believing Israelites. These Israelites were not Gods people temporarily because of their unbelief. Remember the illustration of Gomer. Gomer represented the genetic nation of Israel. Her Marriage to Hosea was Genetic Israel's marriage to God. Yet just as Gomer went astray, Israel went astray. Just as Hosea brought Gomer back, God will one day bring Israel to faith. So then there is a time when the nation of Israel is not "true Israel" because they are in unbelief. During this time, there is a "remnant" of Israel that is "true Israel." However, God will one day bring the entire nation to come back to him and then true Israel will no longer be the remnant, but the entire nation will be the people of God. Today, only the remnant is elect, then the entire nation will be elect. Of course Gentiles will also be elect, but that does not make us part of Israel, just that we share in the same blessings.

PROOF TEXT #2 --- Rom 9:26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.
This is again from Hosea. While this quote is from the same book, and the same context as the previous one, let me say that we should ask the question who is the "them" referring to? ("it was said unto them"). If the text is talking about OT genetic Israel being told that they are no longer the people of God, then the next part of the verse is being spoke to that same nation. If "them" is the rejected genetic nation of Israel, then the "they be called the sons of the living God" must also be Israel. I am saying that the pronouns must refer to the same group of people, genetic Israel.

Notice how well this fits in with 9:6. We have the rejected group of unbelieving Israel (they are not all Israel) and the believing group I am calling "true Israel." True Israel is the people of God, and natural unbelieving genetic Israel is not elected to receive Mercy.

So far both text fit in well with Pauls theme in 9:6. When we look at the remaining two proof texts, it becomes more clear.

PROOF TEXT #3
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.
Now matter how great the number is of genetic unbelieving Israel, the remnant is elect. When looking at this verse I have no idea how people think that it is referring to Gentiles. IF one looks in Isaiah chapter 10ff at the doctrine of the remnant, how can they say it includes Gentiles. The quote of Israel as being of the sands of the sea is unmistakably referring to genetic Israel. How can one not see this as a defense of Pauls point in Romans 9:6? In Romans 9:6 he is saying the same identical thing this OT quote is saying. There is a true believing genetic Israel (also called the Remnant) within Genetic national Israel. This remnant shall be saved (both spiritual and physical deliverance). It is so painfully obvious that this OT prooftext refers to 9:6 that no honest bible student questions it. It is axiomatic.

PROOF TEXT #4
Rom 9:29 And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.

This ominous text is easily the most scary of the 4 proof texts. The seed that is left is "True Israel" and that concept goes back to 9:6. Had there not been a remnant, what would become of the promises of God to national Israel? They would have been totally destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah. Then as verse 6 begins, the promise of God would have been made of no effect! But the God of Hosts has left Israel a "seed" in the remnant. Now in Galatians the "seed" is Christ, but in this context from Isaiah it is the remnant.

THE CHANGE OF CONTEXT
So when does the context of 9:6 end? It ends with the common rhetorical device of Pauls questions.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith:
Rom 9:31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Now, finally, Paul is not going back to 9:6 and is establishing a separate context.
-- Paul has now given us 2 illustrations (7-13). The principle of 9:6 was illustrated.
-- He gave us two questions (14-24) and the principle of 9:6 was examined as to justice.
-- He gave us 4 proof texts (25-29) and the topical statement of 9:6 is shown to be biblical.

Now he leaves the question of the individual election of individual Israelites as the "true Israel" of God and returns to the question of justification by faith alone. In the coming section, Gentiles are not merely an afterthought, as Paul did in 9:24. They are contrasted with faithless Israel. There is no such contrast in 9:24. 9:24 is merely a statement that Gentiles are elected in the same way as True Israel.

Chapter 10 has a beauty to it also. And it also relates to "True Israel" in a way. How does True Israel continue? It continues by God using Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. True Israel continues by the beautiful feet of the preachers of faith. True Israel is reached by Gentiles who go to the Jew first, and then to the Gentiles.

The amazing thing about Chapter 10 is that there is a point of similarity with Chapter 9 in a number of ways.. The theme is no longer about true Israel within Genetic Israel, but the theme is how true Israel is to come to faith. Yet Paul includes Gentiles in election in 9:24 and he also includes Gentiles in faith in 10:12. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the matter of faith.

Finally comes Chapter 11. Chapter 11 explains the end for those I call "true Israel." Chapter 11 looks forward to a time when all Israel is elect Israel. Chapter 11 is the time of fulfillment of the covenants and promises for Israel when "all Israel shall be saved. (Rom 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:). This is the end for "True Israel." "True Israel" is a group of Jewish people that are saved, and are a present remnant. But they day will come when God will take away ungodliness from Israel and they shall all be saved. Salvation and election is also among the Gentiles, but no Gentiles are promised that each and every gentile within any gentile nation will "all" be saved. God chooses some Gentiles, and others will be left as unbelievers. The same is true of Israel today, but they day will come, when Israel will have its promise fulfilled and all of them will be saved.

Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Each and every one of them will know Jehovah their God and our God. They shall all know Jehovah, from the least of them to the greatest of them. That is the end of "True Israel" and that is a promise no Gentile nation possesses. Yes, we posses salvation, yes individual Gentiles are called into Gods kingdom, but no Gentile nation will be completely saved. Only "True Israel."

Sola glorious deus,
Mondar

 

[Drew]

TOPIC SENTENCE --- True Israel is the Elect Believing Jews.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
As I have been suggesting that this is the real topic of Chapter 9. It is the question Paul is addressing.

Paul begins this topic sentence by stating But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought The reader should first be asking what "word of God" could be coming to nothing. Paul is referring to verses 4-5 and the promises, covenants, and all the spiritual blessings given to the Jews in the Old Testament. These promises were given to the Jewish nation. If the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, Jesus, then the natural question of the Jew would be exactly what Paul says. The question on the Jewish mind would be "If God promised all these things to the Jewish nation, and we rejected the Messiah, then have not the promises of God come to nothing?"

This question is answered in the 2nd part of the sentence. God will fulfill his promises to "true Israel." Notice how Paul defines "true Israel." If verse 6 is the topic sentence, it is here that we find the definition for "true Israel." True Israel does not include unbelieving Jews. Paul says For they are not all Israel. The question is who is he talking about. Who is "not Israel?" He is speaking of unbelieving Jews. The concept of an unbelieving Jews is to be demonstrated by the concept of Election. In this part of the verse, Paul is saying that only believing Jews are elect Jews, and only these believing elect Jews will inherit the promises, covenants, and blessings.

If we only had the first part of Romans 9 at our disposal, it might indeed be plausible that Paul is arguing that "true" Israel is a subset of national Israel - believing Jews. But there is another alternative that is entirely consistent with what is said in verses 1 to 6. And that is that "true" Israel is constituted by both Jew and Gentile. Even with verses 1 to 5 having a clear Israel focus, there is nothing in this statement:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel

....that requires us to conclude that Paul's argument is going be that "true" Israel is a subset of national Israel. Paul could be saying this, but everything up and including verse 6 is entirely consistent with saying that Paul is essentially saying this in verse 6:

"For not all who are descended from Israel are members of the "true" Israel, a group which I will now go on to demonstrate contains both Jews and Gentiles"

True - these are not Paul's exact words. But even his exact words do not force us to believe that he is committing to the position that this second, "true" Israel contains only a subset of national Israel.

I could write: "Not all who are Canadian citizens are Canadians" and either of the following might be true:

1. My point is that only a subset of Canadian citizens are "true Canadians" - Canadians who actually embrace a certain set of values that could be characterized as distinctly Canadian;

2. My point is that there is worldwide family of "true Canadians", people who, whether they are Canadian citizens or not, yet ascribe to this set of values, and therefore can be considered true Canadians. And not all Canadian citizens meet this criteria.

The question on the reader's mind is indeed "If God promised all these things to the Jewish nation, and we rejected the Messiah, then have not the promises of God come to nothing?". However, there is no necessity to understand that the answer will take the form of Paul saying that there are indeed some Jews for whom these promises have come true. Paul could equally be about to mount an argument that there is a "true Israel", constituted by both Jew and Gentile, to whom the substantialpromises were really made in the first place. In other words, Paul could be arguing, the ethnic Jews have misunderstood the promises that God made to them. If Paul is mounting such an arguments, and we have already seen from an analysis of Romans 4 that this is what he is doing, there is no need to think that Paul must be making a case that the promises have indeed been kept for some Jews, since the "real" promises were made to the "Jew plus Gentile" family of faith.

For all of the above reasons, we see that there is no necessity to understand that Paul is making an argument that true Israel are elect believing Jews.

And in fact, what Paul goes on to say immediately next, works strongly against just such a position:

7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Who are these "children of the promise" that Paul clearly thinks are this "true" Israel. Are they only believing elect Jews? Obviously not. Consider this from Romans 4:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

Paul's reference here to "law" is a reference to the Torah. As has already been argued, Paul is saying that both Jew and Gentile are heirs to the promise.

So if Paul is really mounting an argument about how only a elect Jews are members of "true Israel", Abraham's true offspring, why is he is using "children of promise" language here in verse 9, when, a few chapters back, he has used this very same language to identify the Jew plus Gentile family of faith as Abraham's true offspring.

Has Paul suffered a bout of amnesia? Has he already forgotten by the time he dictates chapter 9 that, back in chapter 4, he has clearly asseted that the "true offspring of Abraham" - the "children of the promise", and hence the "true" Israel, is a group constituted by both Jew and Gentile?

Implausible as this is, we also know from what Paul says later in chapter 9 that he considers "true Israel" to contain both Jew and Gentile. More about that later.

 

[Drew]

Given how the discussion of the meaning of the gospel went, I am surprised that you make such a statement. In that context, I successfully argued against your assertion about the meaning of term "gospel" as used by Paul. So I should think a little more humility is called for on your part. Why make such dismissive statements as the above?.

Concerning your denial of the gospel in our previous discussions, I think you confuse having the last word with winning the argument.

I will start another thread on this subject of the "gospel" and we will see how the argument fares.

 

[Drew]

I dont intend to bother with the volumes of drivel that you posted. Again, what you do is pick a phrase here, then go off on a tangent to some actual covenant material that is not being quoted in Romans 4.

Why is it that when presented with clear arguments, you simply refuse to engage them and attempt to smear me with insults. Do you really think readers will dismiss what I write based on your declaration that it is "drivel"?

Do you really think the reader will not expect a counterargument to my detailed argument about how God has transferred covenant promises to "true" Israel. If you do not have time to respond, fine. But unless you are prepared to actually engage my arguments, you are in no position to deliver insults.

Please try to be more constructive - I do not insult you as you have done many times to me. Do you want me to post the evidence? Please ask me to post the evidence.

And I do not make false statements about your position - as you have done repeatedly about my positions on various matters. Do you want me to post the evidence? Please ask me to post the evidence.

 

[mondar]

I dont intend to bother with the volumes of drivel that you posted. Again, what you do is pick a phrase here, then go off on a tangent to some actual covenant material that is not being quoted in Romans 4.

Why is it that when presented with clear arguments, you simply refuse to engage them and attempt to smear me with insults. Do you really think readers will dismiss what I write based on your declaration that it is "drivel"?

Do you really think the reader will not expect a counterargument to my detailed argument about how God has transferred covenant promises to "true" Israel. If you do not have time to respond, fine. But unless you are prepared to actually engage my arguments, you are in no position to deliver insults.

Please try to be more constructive - I do not insult you as you have done many times to me. Do you want me to post the evidence? Please ask me to post the evidence.

And I do not make false statements about your position - as you have done repeatedly about my positions on various matters. Do you want me to post the evidence? Please ask me to post the evidence.

Concerning the insults you are right to correct me. I make mistakes of judging your motives and then get sarcastic and nasty. I was wrong and you have my apologies. I will attempt to clean up my act.

Concerning what you call the misrepresentations, I can offer no apology. When you wrote on Romans 2:13 my impression is that you were advocating 3 tenses of justification and future justification is based upon works. While I recognize that in your mind that is not a works salvation position, I do not see it the same way. I see works as never the means of any justification, but always only the fruits of justification.

 

[DeBPrpht]

Greetings Ya'll,

Much argument follows "knowing the identity of Israel"

As always,...........Man, believing that "his way & his knowledge" is far superior to that of His Creator, takes what is plainly written in The Word of God Almighty & then bends, twists, distorts & corrupts that which is TRUE & replaces it with that which is the spawn of Satan.

Being raised Catholic until my family divorced, & from there going to many, many different faiths, & "churches of Man", for a long time I believed that The Old Testament was "Jewish" & that all of those who reclaimed the land of Israel after WW II,...........were Israelites.
It has been only over the past four years that I have learned from The Word of God Almighty that "A Jew is an Israelite, but not all Israelites are "Jews".Contrary to the "traditions & teachings of Man",.................Jacob / Israel had TWELVE SONS & the Covenant promises given to these twelve sons are still in effect,.................otherwise God Himself is a liar,........hence even being a Christian is a nothing more than living a great lie.

Myself,............no longer am I a member of any of "Man's religions" for they all ignore The Word of God where it is written:

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

A "True Believer" must ask how is it that there are so many different faiths, when The Written Word of god says that there is only one? I give here scriptures found in both the Old and the New Testaments, that shine a light upon the root of this controversy:

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


Knowing this.................does one not search out the Scriptures to find the TRUTH? It is written:

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Lev 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

God Himself explained that His seventh day Sabbath was & is a "sign" that would indicate His people, whereas many are taught that this is the indication of being a "Jew", "Seventh Day Adventist", or even a "Jehovah's Witness",............again, another example of how Man has corrupted The True Word of God Almighty.
God's people are to follow The Ten Commandments as the result of their faith in The Messiah, but not as the means to obtain salvation:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I believe that so far, I have provided a Scriptural foundation that shows that Israel would keep the Sabbaths & The Commandments of God Almighty,.............much unlike most of the churches of today which follow the "Generational Teachings of Man" which disregard the Seventh Day Sabbath, & keep "watered down commandments". I also believe that as the Messiah stated all Twelve Tribes of Israel will be present in The Kingdom of Heaven >>> Matthew 19:28

Much of the debate within this topic seems centered upon Rom. 9:, yet if greater attention were centered upon Rom. 11:, then "who Israel is" would be answered & even the danger of certain peple placing themselves above Israel:

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
Hos 2:17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Hos 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
Hos 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Hos 2:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
Hos 2:22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

There are many, many, many verses & chapters of scripture which state that even though God Almighty was brought to the point of destroying Israel,........he always repented & He always proclaimed that in a future event He would forgive their sin as indicated in Hosea 2:19, which if one looks hard enough it also appears to be the event in Rev.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And one vastly overlooked scripture is here:

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

In other words..............Israel, who is loved by God Almighty, has been guaranteed many Covenants to be enacted on it's part, who is guaranteed to rule in the Kingdom of Heaven.......this Israel that right now is in a "slumber & is blind to it's own identity",.............IS THE CHURCH. And, according to Paul in Romans 11: it is to this CHURCH that the Gentiles will be grafted in.

THERE IS NO DISPUTE,.................AT LEAST IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH.






But where now is Israel? One will have to look in The Word & at history itself:

Gen 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Ephraim, a multitude of nations? Jacob was not speaking of the tribes of Israel when they would claim the land of Israel, for in the Old Testament none of the tribes were ever spoken of as "a nation". Nations that were spoken of were the likes of Egypt, Syria etc. So, what "group of nations" would exhibit material blessings given by God Almighty Himself? Furthermore, what one nation would come up & exhibit the same blessings?
What one nation, which later became a "group of nations", in history, for a time, always had the sun never setting upon it's flag?..............Great Britain.
What nation soon after rose up to take it's place in the world?.............America.

How did they get from Israel to Europe & eventually America? Read below:

2Ki 17:5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.
2Ki 17:6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
2Ki 17:7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods,
2Ki 17:8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.

2Ki 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
2Ki 17:19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
2Ki 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
2Ki 17:21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin.
2Ki 17:22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
2Ki 17:23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

Israel never returned to their land.............Only The House of Judah did (by the way, after the splitting up of the Kingdom of Israel, only then is the name "Jew" >>> Judah found, not before!) In fact did not The Messiah say:

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now if one turns to history, one would find that in this very area where The House of Israel was taken, a group of people known as the Cimmerians & the Sycthians suddenly appeared.One only has to follow history & their immigrations over time to learn that these people became the "Celts / Anglos & Saxons"....................Is there a collective "WHOA!!!" out there?

There is far more found in THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD ALMIGHTY concerning His people / Church & if one can only waken oneself from this Biblical slumber & SEEK THE TRUTH,................then one would quickly realize that Man has corrupted THE WORD OF GOD ALMIGHTY.
The sad part is that we are running out of time, for The Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble is going to happen in large part to The House of Judah & The House of Israel,.........it is the way of Our Father in Heaven spanking & correcting His Children, in order to get their attention for the last & final time.

Shalom!

 

[Drew]

.[/b]Contrary to the "traditions & teachings of Man",.................Jacob / Israel had TWELVE SONS & the Covenant promises given to these twelve sons are still in effect,.................otherwise God Himself is a liar,........hence even being a Christian is a nothing more than living a great lie.

I believe that Paul teaches that all the promises, understood to have been made to Israel, were either not made to Israel in the first place or have otherwise been fulfilled in the work of Jesus. Paul is pretty clear- there are no outstanding promises to Israel:

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ

This, I suggest, amounts to a claim by Paul that all the promises God has made have been fulfilled 2000 years ago.

And Paul would not write the following if he believed that the Jew continued to have a special status:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul does not see any special status for the Jew as of the finished work of the cross.

 

[RND]

Concerning the insults you are right to correct me. I make mistakes of judging your motives and then get sarcastic and nasty. I was wrong and you have my apologies. I will attempt to clean up my act.

 

[Drew]

The argument that, in Romans 9, Paul is identifying that a sub-set of national Israel as fully constitutive of “true†or “elect†Israel is strongly countered by the implications of this particular block of text from later in the chapter:

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

While it is true that Paul starts his argument (early in Romans 9) with the claim that only a subset of national Israel are members of “true†Israel (the true offspring of Abraham), it rapidly becomes clear that he expands membership in “true†Israel to include the Gentile.

As has been demonstrated elsewhere, Paul’s “children of promise†and “Abraham’s true offspring†concepts of verses 7 to 8 send the reader back to Romans 4 where Paul has used this same language to clearly identify the Jew plus Gentile family of faith. So it is already clear by verse 8 that Paul’s “true†Israel is not only made up of a sub-set of national Israel.

In verse 24, Paul makes a clear statement that God has bestowed his favour on both Jews and Gentiles. Is this also a commitment to the position that these Jews and Gentiles are “true†Israel? Indeed it is as will be shortly argued.

Of course, it could be otherwise. For the sake of the argument, we provisionally overlook the implications of verses 7 and 8 that “true†Israel contains both Jew and Gentile. With such a concession, the possibility is granted that Paul considers that “true†Israel†to be a sub-set of national Israel and that his statement about Jews and Gentiles (in verse 24) is simply a separate point with no relevance to the question of who makes up “true†Israel.

However, this possibility is ruled out under the implications of verse 25. Note how Paul initiates verse 25 with the phrase “As he saysâ€Â. This is a linguistic device to inform the reader that what follows is an amplification, clarification, or restatement of what has just been said. No competent writer would make a point “A†about what God is doing in the world, follow it immediately with the phrase “As He saysâ€Â, and then make a point “B†about what God is doing that is a clarification of something he said way back at the beginning of the chapter. The linguistic convention is well-established – unless there is an explicit statement to the contrary, the referent of the phrase “as He says†must be what has just been written. That is simply how language works.

Besides, there are other reasons to understand that the group described in verse 25 is this Jew plus Gentile family identified in verse 24 and, further, that this group is specifically “true†Israel.

Who are the people of God in Old Testament as per the Hosea quotation in verse 25? Clearly the nation of Israel. And the term “sons of God†is an Old Testament phrase to denote Israel (Exodus 4:22, Jer 31:9). Therefore we have every reason to believe that Paul is making a claim about the constitution of “true Israel†in verse 25 – he is telling us something about who the people of God (sons of God) are.

From verse 24, we know that God has bestowed his favour on Gentiles. Who are the Gentiles? They are those who are not part of the nation of Israel and who are therefore not the people, or the sons, of God.

So if, in verse 25. Paul is not making a point about the Gentiles being incorporated into the “true†people of God (“true†Israel), exactly who are these people who haven designated in the past as being “not God’s peopleâ€Â, and are now declared to both be “God’s people†and “sons of Godâ€Â. I can see no alternative except to conclude that they are Gentiles and that God is saying that they have been grafted into “true†Israel.

 

[DeBPrpht]

.[/b]Contrary to the "traditions & teachings of Man",.................Jacob / Israel had TWELVE SONS & the Covenant promises given to these twelve sons are still in effect,.................otherwise God Himself is a liar,........hence even being a Christian is a nothing more than living a great lie.

I believe that Paul teaches that all the promises, understood to have been made to Israel, were either not made to Israel in the first place or have otherwise been fulfilled in the work of Jesus. Paul is pretty clear- there are no outstanding promises to Israel:

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ

This, I suggest, amounts to a claim by Paul that all the promises God has made have been fulfilled 2000 years ago.

And Paul would not write the following if he believed that the Jew continued to have a special status:

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul does not see any special status for the Jew as of the finished work of the cross.

[color=#000000

Greetings Drew,

Thank you for your reply,...........although I disagree with your answer for:

Your Bible interpretation is totally different than mine as I read Romans 10: & 11: quite differently,....In fact I posted directly from The Bible when I pointed out what Paul said about Israel. When one takes all of the pieces of the puzzle (as each scripture / chapter/ verse could be called) & combines them with other books/ chapters/ verses,.............it becomes quite clear to me that a vast amount of prophecy is either being fulfilled in our time, or very soon will be.[/color]

"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ"...........I do not understand what you are trying to say here.

]28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise...................I believe that if you "dug deeper into The Word", then you would find that there is "No respect" of persons". If you thought that I was implying that "The Jews" were placed above all, then I suggest that you go through my post again, for as anyone being "special", it is indeed The House of Israel & The House of Judah,..............Not the "Jews" only as they would have the entire world believe. Or do you interpret what God Almighty said here?:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Psa 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Psa 94:14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Psa 94:15 But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.

Psa 89:1 <Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.> I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
Psa 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Deu 26:18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
Deu 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Drew, there are many, many ,many more verses & chapters of Scripture which are consistent in stating that all of Israel were & are still very important to The Almighty God of Israel.
My only purpose is to seek those who are seeking THE TRUTH & share what The Word of God Almighty plainly states,.............. versus what the "Generational Teachings of Man" have taught for more than 1500 years.

But Brother,...............you are entitled to your opinion & belief.

Yoshua Ma'shiach / Jesus Christ is LORD, SAVIOUR, and REDEEMER!

Shalom

 

[Drew]

SECOND ILLUSTRATION --- In the next generation, the generation of Isaac and his sons, again the concept of election within the nation of Israel is demonstrated.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac -
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
There is no new topic here either. This is again merely an illustration of the principle in 9:6. The election of Jacob as the elect seed is the same as the concept of "true Israel." The fact that Esau was of the genetic offspring of Isaac did not establish Esau as a part of election. It did not establish Esau as a part of the covenants and promises, and all the things found in 9:4-5. These belong only to the line of Jacob. Interestingly enough, another name for Jacob is "Israel." There is something new stressed in the illustration. The concept that this election, the establishment of a "true Israel" is not by works. Election is never by works. No work done by man can cause his election. That is Gods sovereign choice.

Here is Romans 9:6 as rendered in the NASB:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

I think what you conclude - that "the concept of election within the nation of Israel is demonstrated" is not justified by what Paul has written. I think that 9:6 is a statement by God that only a sub-set of national Israel is part of "true" Israel. It is important to not go beyond what Paul actually says and read things into his text. What has Paul done in verse 6? All we can say without adding to what he is saying is this

1. There is a body of people called "Israel" (this is his "first" Israel in 9:6);

2. There is a body of people who are "descended from Israel". I will assume that no reader will contest that this body of people are the ethnic Jews. I think it is clear from what follows verse 6 that, indeed, the phrase "descended from Israel" is intended to denote the Jewish race in general. If anybody disputes this, we can go down that road.

3. Not every person who is descended from Israel is part of this first Israel.

Note what we cannot infer from verse 6. We cannot infer that the first "Israel" in verse 6 is a category that excludes Gentiles. It might or it might not. We know that Paul sometimes uses the word "Israel" to denote a body of people that include Gentiles. So we must leave that possibility open here in 9:6. Here is an example from Galatians where Paul uses the term "Israel" to denote a group with Gentiles in it:

16And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the (AJ)Israel of God.

In this post, I will merely assert that this "Israel" must contain Gentiles. If anyone wishes to challenge me on this, I will make the argument.

We also have Romans 4, where Paul describes the "true offspring of Abraham" as being constituted by both Jew and Gentile. As will be shown presently, this amounts to a declaration by Paul that there is a category called "Israel" containing Gentiles as well as Jews. The reader may object that I am reading too much into Romans 4 - that while Romans 4 obviously casts Abraham in the role of father to a Jew plus Gentile family, there is no warrant to think that this is in any sense an Israel category.

That is an entirely legitimate critique. The evidence that the Romans 4 Jew plus Gentile family is, in fact, an Israel category lies right here in Romans 9:

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

I will assume that no one will challenge the assertion that here in verse 8, Paul is telling us something about the "first" Israel of verse 6 - that this first Israel is populated by children of the promise and these people are regarded as the descendents of Abraham in his capacity as head of this "first" Israel. If we go back to Romans 4, we notice that Paul has used these same concepts - the concept of a set of persons who are true heirs to promise and who are heirs to this promise specifically because they are Abraham's offspring.

If Paul does not intend us to understand that this "first" Israel of verse 6 contains Gentiles, then the following must be true:

1. Paul is doing the very odd thing of using the same "children of promise" language in 4 and 8 to denote two entirely different groups - in 4, a Jew plus Gentile group, and in 9 a Jew only group;

2. Paul has two competing notions of who Abraham's true offspring are - in Romans 4 he sees them as a Jew plus Gentile group (clearly), while here in Romans 9, he sees them as a sub-set of national Israel. No competent writer would give competing definitions for the same basic category - Abraham's "real" descendents (his descendents in the sense that really matters).

Even if you challenge my argument about Romans 4, the Galatians 6 usage makes the case - we need to consider the possibility that the first Israel here in 9:6 contains Gentiles.

Another thing that we cannot legitmately infer from 9:6 is that Paul is saying that specific members of this "first" Israel - what you call the "elect within Israel" - have been individually elected to eternal life. There are other possibilities to consider.

 

[brakelite2]

Let me repeat that it is Jesus Who is the true Israel. He said of Himself "I am the true vine." It is Jesus into whom we are grafted. Not the nation of Israel, not even the church, but Jesus. Just as the name Israel was originally given to an overcomer, and passed on to his descendants, so now it applies to the true overcomer and is passed on to His descendants. "If ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed".

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Jesus is the centre, the end goal, fulfilment of all scripture. All the covenants, the promises, and blessings are to be found only in Him. Not the nation or the church. It is only by our attachment to Him by being branches on the true vine that we can partake of all the blessings and promises that applied to those former branches which were broken off.

1 ¶ When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
This text from Hosea when first penned and spoken by God applied to the nation.
However, as the next verse shows, they did not live up to their calling. As Daniel so wonderfully shows, God then gave Israel time. 490 years to be precise.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....until Messiah the Prince...

Lu 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.


At the end of the seventy weeks, the 490 years, Jesus came as God's servant to seek fruit from God's vineyard, in particular the fig tree of Israel.
He found none.

So as Mathew so succinctly pointed out, 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The prophecy that first applied to the nation found fulfilment in Jesus. This is entirely consistent with the teachings of Paul, Peter and the other writers of the NT. Jesus is the new Israel, and as branches we are now expected to bear the fruit that was missing from the branches that were cut off. Forget about looking to the nation to fulfil the prophecies surrounding the second coming etc. The children of Israel , God's covenant people, His holy nation, His peculiar people and His royal priesthood is no longer the nation of Israel, the children of the flesh, but those to whom Peter was addressing in his first letter, the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

 

[Drew]

Let me repeat that it is Jesus Who is the true Israel.

I certainly agree that Jesus acted as "Israel" rolled up into one person. He bore the punishment due to national Israel and He was the "faithful Israelite" who fulfilled the covenant plan to have Israel solve the Adamic sin problem.

However, Paul indeed believes that those "in Christ" - both Jew and Gentile are a "true Israel" not least in the sense that, as per Romans 4 to 8, all the promises ostensibly made to national Israel are handed over to the Jew plus Gentile family of faith.

But I certainly agree - Jesus can properly described as "true" Israel.