Who is Israel?

[RND]

Let me repeat that it is Jesus Who is the true Israel.

I certainly agree that Jesus acted as "Israel" rolled up into one person. He bore the punishment due to national Israel and He was the "faithful Israelite" who fulfilled the covenant plan to have Israel solve the Adamic sin problem.

However, Paul indeed believes that those "in Christ" - both Jew and Gentile are a "true Israel" not least in the sense that, as per Romans 4 to 8, all the promises ostensibly made to national Israel are handed over to the Jew plus Gentile family of faith.

But I certainly agree - Jesus can properly described as "true" Israel.

Drew, I think brakelite2 was saying the same thing.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I think brakelite2 was saying the same thing.

You are right. Upon re-reading his/her post, I noticed this:

Just as the name Israel was originally given to an overcomer, and passed on to his descendants, so now it applies to the true overcomer and is passed on to His descendants. "If ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed".

 

[Drew]

It is because, as we see in Romans 5 to 8, Paul believes that covenant promises, seemingly made to Abraham in his role as father of national Israel, were in fact never made to national Israel at all, but rather made to Abraham in his role as father of "true" Israel.

A mere assumption. Although you might consider this to be your very specific evidence.

I have already written the first part of a response to this, the present post is the second half. The first post is dated 26 Dec at 12:47 PM (Eastern Time). The matter at issue is my claim that Paul transfers Israel's blessings over to the church - suggesting that Paul sees the church as the "true" Israel in that they are the ones who get the "Israel" blessings:

What are the covenant promises made to Israel? They are summarized in 9:4 and 5:

....the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen

In my earlier post, I addressed sonship, glory, and covenants. In this post, I address law, worship, promises, and patriarchs.

Consider the blessing about the receiving of the law. What has Paul said in Romans 7 and 8? In Romans 7, he addresses the purpose and function of Torah for the Jew. In Romans 8, we get this statement about law:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death

Paul sees that the Jew + Gentile church gets law.

Consider the blessing of temple worship. Here is what Paul says in Romans 5:1 to 5:8. While the word “worship†does not appear here explicitly, I assert that this is essentially an expression of worship on the part of the Jew + Gentile family of God:

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Consider the promise blessing. Here in Romans 4, Paul clearly ascribes this very blessing to the Jew + Gentile family of God:

16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,…

Consider the partriarch blessing. This same Romans 4 text asserts that the Jew + Gentile family of God has Abraham as its father.

Paul knows what he is doing - he systematically ascribes all the covenant promises over to the "true" Israel - the family of Jew + Gentile believers.

Consider again the dense and explicit summary of the covenant promises to Israel in 9:5. In chapters 4 through 8, these same blessings are ascribed to the Jew plus Gentile family of God. No doubt, some will argue that I am inventing a connection here and there is no justification for a conclusion that Paul sees the Israel blessing as being handed over to the church.

In response, I would suggest that it would be quite a coincidence if the following collectively do not suggest an intention on the part of Paul to see Israel’s blessings transferred over to this Jew + Gentile family:

• In chapters 4 to 8 a series of blessing are ascribed to the Jew + Gentile family of God;

• In chapter 9, Paul opens with a lament over the dire situation of Israel, followed immediately by a listing of the blessings for Israel. The fact that Paul considers Israel to be in a bad way strongly suggests that these blessings are no longer hers.

• Paul continues in chapter 9 to argue that the majority of Jews have been molded by God as vessels fitted for destruction for the very benefit of the vessels of mercy that are clearly believing Gentiles and believing Jews - an argument that, again, fits well with the notion that God has taken from Israel and given to the church. (I realize some will dispute that these vessels of destruction are indeed unbelieving Jews. I have made that case extensively elsewhere without in any way leveraging the content of the present argument – so there is no circularity).

• Paul goes on to say, in verses 30-33 that the Gentiles have benefited while the Jews have gone astray. Again, this is highly consistent with Paul believing that Israel has lost her blessings and the Gentiles have been the beneficiary;

• Paul makes repeated statements in Romans 11 about how the Jews (the overwhelming majority of them anyway) have been broken off from the olive tree that is God’s true family and the Gentiles grafted in – again entirely consistent with the proposal I am advancing.

 

[DeBPrpht]

[Greetings Ya'll,

First of all, As I said in my earlier post,........."Drew , you are entitled to your opinion & belief ",........thank God Almighty for the freedom of speech while we still have it for however little time remaining. ...............For the life of me Brother,.........I can not see how you come up with this conclusion:color=#000000][/color]
"This, I suggest, amounts to a claim by Paul that all the promises God has made have been fulfilled 2000 years ago."......................

I'm baffled,........honestly & completely baffled by the statements from one who seems to have a sincere desire to serve & know The Almighty God of Israel!
I deeply suspect that the basis of your belief is "THE GENERATIONAL TEACHINGS OF MAN". :verysad :verysad :verysad

"28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul does not see any special status for the Jew as of the finished work of the cross."

Let's quit hangin' on th' Jews for a little while & look at the TRUE MEANING OF THE WORD.

MY LORD, SAVIOUR, & REDEEMER HAD MAN WRITE IN BOTH BOOKS OF THE BIBLE THAT HE WOULD NOT PLACE FAVOR UPON ANYONE,..........OTHER THAN ALL TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL & THOSE WHO JOINED THEM.
HE FURTHER WENT ON TO SAY THAT HIS LAWS WOULD APPLY TO ALL THAT WERE MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP........................

THAT "GROUP",...................WAS /IS / & WILL BE THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT HE DIED UPON THE CROSS,& WAS BURIED,.................AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD AFTER THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS!!!..................THIS "GROUP" WILL ALSO, BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN HIM & WHAT HE DID, WILL ALSO EXHIBIT THE ACTS OF LIVING AS HE COMMANDED:[/size]

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Drew,...............irregardless of what today's religions think by holding Sunday as the "Sabbath",..................The Almighty God of Israel plainly, EXPLICITLY, & many times said that HIS SABBATH WAS & IS THE SEVENTH DAY,....................To do any other is a violation of HIS COMMANDMENTS & DEUT. IS VERY CLEAR ON WHAT HAPPENS TO ISRAEL WHEN IT VIOLATES THE ALMIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL'S COMMANDMENTS..................Look around you & please point out to me "the many blessings that Man has been able to bestow upon His Brother"..........In the majority I see the written & guaranteed curses that lead up to & include THE TRIBULATION / TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE

I would hope that you Sir, with as many posts as you have made in this forum, .........would be capable of seeking The Truth,.........and not what MAN TEACHES.

............................

"Let me repeat that it is Jesus Who is the true Israel. He said of Himself "I am the true vine." It is Jesus into whom we are grafted. Not the nation of Israel, not even the church, but Jesus. Just as the name Israel was originally given to an overcomer, and passed on to his descendants, so now it applies to the true overcomer and is passed on to His descendants. "If ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed"."

AMEN!!!! AND AMEN!!!!!

Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
2Ch 7:17 And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
2Ch 7:18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
2Ch 7:19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.


Am I saying that Our LORD, SAVIOUR & REDEEMER IS ALSO NAMED AFTER HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL??????

YES!!!

For I tell Ya'll here & now,............it was not God The Father that talked to Moses, nor Jacob:

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[/size]

Our Lord, Saviour, & Redeemer named His People after HIMSELF..............now how important is ISRAEL??????

Shalom

 

[Drew]

I'm baffled,........honestly & completely baffled by the statements from one who seems to have a sincere desire to serve & know The Almighty God of Israel!

Thanks for believing that I seek knowledge of God.

I deeply suspect that the basis of your belief is "THE GENERATIONAL TEACHINGS OF MAN". :verysad :verysad :verysad [/color]

I have never heard of this - is it a book?

"Let me repeat that it is Jesus Who is the true Israel.

I do not disagree with this statement. I would go further and assert that Paul sees the Jew + Gentile family that are, of course, "in Christ" to also be considered as "true" Israel.

I have to say that I am not at all sure exactly what you object to in my posts. Can you please be specific.

 

[Drew]

FIRST ILLUSTRATION --- In the birth of the Children of Abraham, only Isaac was the elect son, the "true Israel."
Rom 9:7 neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
First, notice the statement in verse 7. Paul says that all of Abraham's seed is not the "True Israel," All of Abrahams seed Abrahams seed is not elect Israel. Only one certain individual is elect. Ishmael was not elect, the sons of Kuturah were not elect, only Isaac. So Paul writes "neither, because they are Abraham's seed. Ishamael was not elect because he was Abraham's seed.

Verse 8 has the application Paul draws. it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God Ishmael and the sons of Kuturah were all children of Abraham (of his fleshly body). But not elect sons.

Now why is verse 7-9 a merely illustration of verse 6? Notice how this ties directly into the statements of 9:6. 9:6 says there is a "true Israel" within genetic fleshly national Israel. Just as Isaac was the elect offspring, there were true believing Jewish people that were the "true Israel." Verses 7-9 can only be seen as a mere illustration of the principle and topic sentence in verse 6. The birth of Ishmael shows that "they are not all Israel who are Israel." Ishmael was of Abraham, but he was not elect.

This analysis only works if one overlooks the fact that Paul has already told us that the "true children" of Abraham include Gentiles:

So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.

I assume no one will dispute that Paul is describing an Abrahamic family constituted by Jews and Gentiles.

And what kind of a case is Paul making in Romans 9? As verse 7 states, developing the argument of verse 6:

nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants,..

He is making a case about who Abraham's descendents are in the sense that really matters - his "true" descendents.

And consider this from Galatians 3 where Paul clearly understands that both Jew and Gentile make up Abraham's true family:

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Unless Paul has forgotten what he said in Romans 4, and unless he is being inconsistent with Galatians 3, he simply cannot be arguing that a subset of the Jews constitute Abraham's true offspring in Romans 9.

 

[mondar]

Drew,
You are switching terms now. The discussion was on the concept of "true Israel," and not the "family of Abraham." The term switching is important since the concept of Abraham as the Father of all who have faith is a concept I already addressed and spoke of how we are "of Abraham." However, those are issue of Galatians and Romans 4, not Romans 9.

However, to you I am sure that the terms will mean the same thing and run all contexts together. I have seen how your mind works. When you want to import a concept into the text you become exceedingly graceous to yourself over the existance of a single word or phrase. You feel no need to actually follow the rhetorical argument of a passage. This result in you taking huge liberties with any passage and importing nearly any meaning you wish.

Concerning Romans 9:7ff, if you cannot see how those verses illustrate Romans 9:6, no amount of writing will help you see it. The illustrations of 9:7-12 do not place any gentiles in true Israel, but rather it places unbelieving Jews in the category of non-elect Israel.

I honestly dont know why I am bothering to continue any discussion here. Anyone that would think Romans 9:7-12 relates to Abraham's family and gentiles just does not get it.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
You are switching terms now. The discussion was on the concept of "true Israel," and not the "family of Abraham." The term switching is important since the concept of Abraham as the Father of all who have faith is a concept I already addressed and spoke of how we are "of Abraham." However, those are issue of Galatians and Romans 4, not Romans 9.

I have already provided a detailed and comprehensive argument - that you have not engaged - about how, in Romans 4 to 8, Paul ascribes each of the "Israel" covenant blessing of 9:4 to the Jew + Gentile family of faith. This, apart from any other arguments, is devastating evidence to the effect that Paul considers the Jew + Gentile family of faith as being the intended recipients of the "true" content of the Israel blessing of 9:4. Paul could not be clearer - the Jew + Gentile family of faith is the "true" Israel.

I have already argued that your analysis of Abraham merely as the father of those who have faith is not true to what Paul says in Romans 4, where Paul clearly evokes covenantal promises made to Abraham and shows that the true recipients of those promises are a family constituted b both Jews and Gentiles. So whether you believe it or not, Paul clearly sees that Abraham is not merely the father of a Jew plus Gentile family of faith, he is father of a Jew plus Gentile family that are the true recipients of the covenantal promises made to Abraham. This is unambiguously clear from the text:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Paul is making claim that the Jew plus Gentile family are heirs - heirs to a promise made to Abraham in Genesis 17:

As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
5"No longer shall your name be called [a]Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Paul does not consider the Jew plus Gentile family of faith to have Abraham as its father simply in the sense that Abraham and this family have saving faith in common. This cannot be the case - Paul has gone to great lengths in Romans 4 to go beyond this - claiming that the Jew plus Gentile family of faith are the true heirs of a covenant promise made to Abraham. The whole structure of his Romans 4 argument is clearly a response to those who would believe that this promise was made to the Jew only. Thus he writes "It was not through law (that is being under Torah,that is being a Jew)......."

And when this is combined with the methodical case he mounts in Romans 4 to 8, demonstrating that the Jew + Gentile church get each of the "Israel" blessings of 9:4, the case is clear: Paul considers the Jew + Gentile family of faith to be true Israel.

 

[Drew]

Concerning Romans 9:7ff, if you cannot see how those verses illustrate Romans 9:6, no amount of writing will help you see it. The illustrations of 9:7-12 do not place any gentiles in true Israel, but rather it places unbelieving Jews in the category of non-elect Israel.

Here is Romans 9:7-8.

nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "(T)THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

We know from Romans 4 who the "true descendents" of Abraham are, and these are further the "children of promise". It is the Jew plus Gentile family of faith:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Your agument only works if we believe that Paul is using terminology - "children of Abraham" and "true offspring" that conflict with what he wrote in Romans 4.

Besides, we have this from Galatians that shows who Paul really considers Abraham;'s true descendents to be - the Jew plus Gentile family of believers:

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

 

[mondar]

Drew,
You are switching terms now. The discussion was on the concept of "true Israel," and not the "family of Abraham." The term switching is important since the concept of Abraham as the Father of all who have faith is a concept I already addressed and spoke of how we are "of Abraham." However, those are issue of Galatians and Romans 4, not Romans 9.

I have already provided a detailed and comprehensive argument -

I must admit my mouth hung open at such a claim. You merely gave the chapters some sort of titles. Drew, can you really be serious in making such mammoth claims? Did I miss something you wrote?

Maybe you make such absurd claims to make yourself feel scholarly and important? You have so far presented not even one discussion of the unity of even one chapter and how it relates to a topic.

... that you have not engaged - about how, in Romans 4 to 8, Paul ascribes each of the "Israel" covenant blessing of 9:4 to the Jew + Gentile family of faith. This, apart from any other arguments, is devastating evidence to the effect that Paul considers the Jew + Gentile family of faith as being the intended recipients of the "true" content of the Israel blessing of 9:4. Paul could not be clearer - the Jew + Gentile family of faith is the "true" Israel.

I am beginning to suspect that you do not know the difference between assertions and evidence.

I have already argued that your analysis of Abraham merely as the father of those who have faith is not true to what Paul says in Romans 4, where Paul clearly evokes covenantal promises made to Abraham and shows that the true recipients of those promises are a family constituted b both Jews and Gentiles.

Yes, what is so painfully obvious is that you pick a phrase in Romans 4, and then continually over and over assert that the whole book relates to Abraham and Gentiles, and then do a logicless back flip to say its all about covenant, therefore Paul's idea of justification is future, and then you assert that Romans 2:13 demonstrates that future justification is based upon present works.

Just as I have been saying, you jump all over the book, pick out a word here, an a phrase there, and then import meaning.

So whether you believe it or not, Paul clearly sees that Abraham is not merely the father of a Jew plus Gentile family of faith, he is father of a Jew plus Gentile family that are the true recipients of the covenantal promises made to Abraham.

Of course, I have been saying that Abraham is the Father of all faithful (Gentiles and Jews). That is where it ends. I see no need to relate this to the Abrahamic Covenant. The text of Romans never quotes the covenantal promises. To assert that anytime the scriptures mentions Abraham, it must be talking about Covenant is an absurdity you probably will never grasp. An example is James 2. Abraham is mentioned there as an illustration of the fruits of faith, which is works.

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Yes, Abraham is the father of us all. And George Washington is the Father of all who love liberty. Maybe we should be glad of the "covenantal promises" that we inherit from George Washington?

Paul is making claim that the Jew plus Gentile family are heirs - heirs to a promise made to Abraham in Genesis 17:

As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
5"No longer shall your name be called [a]Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Tell me, why did Paul not quote this text if it is so critical. Just as I said, you jump all over the bible for a phrase here and a word there. It is the most absurd hermeneutic I have ever seen.

Paul does not consider the Jew plus Gentile family of faith to have Abraham as its father simply in the sense that Abraham and this family have saving faith in common.

This cannot be the case - Paul has gone to great lengths in Romans 4 to go beyond this -

"Great lenghts" LOL, are you really serious? There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11. Then Paul quotes a phrase relating to the new covenant, not the abrahamic covenant.

Compare Romans to a passage that actually discusses covenants. Read Hebrews 8 or 10. Whole sections of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are quoted. Is there any such quotes of Abrahamic covenantly material in Romans? No!

claiming that the Jew plus Gentile family of faith are the true heirs of a covenant promise made to Abraham. The whole structure of his Romans 4 argument is clearly a response to those who would believe that this promise was made to the Jew only. Thus he writes "It was not through law (that is being under Torah,that is being a Jew)......."

And when this is combined with the methodical case he mounts in Romans 4 to 8, demonstrating that the Jew + Gentile church get each of the "Israel" blessings of 9:4, the case is clear: Paul considers the Jew + Gentile family of faith to be true Israel.

Drew, I have not even seen you begin to demonstrate the unity of Romans 4-8. With no evidence, you simply keep making the same assertions over and over like you have presented evidence.

I suggest you do as I did in Romans 9. I went through most of the chapter and related every verse to its theme in 9:6. Can you do that in any part of the scripture from Genesis to Revelation? My guess is that you will pick a phrase here, and a word there, and assert that you have infallibly proven you thesis. The same monotonous repetition without any evidence gets old.

 

[Drew]

Drew,
You are switching terms now. The discussion was on the concept of "true Israel," and not the "family of Abraham." The term switching is important since the concept of Abraham as the Father of all who have faith is a concept I already addressed and spoke of how we are "of Abraham." However, those are issue of Galatians and Romans 4, not Romans 9.

I have already provided a detailed and comprehensive argument -

I must admit my mouth hung open at such a claim. You merely gave the chapters some sort of titles. Drew, can you really be serious in making such mammoth claims? Did I miss something you wrote?

Maybe you make such absurd claims to make yourself feel scholarly and important? You have so far presented not even one discussion of the unity of even one chapter and how it relates to a topic.

You are mistaken - I have done precisely as I said I have done. In two lengthy posts in this thread, I have made the detailed arguments you seem incapable of locating, even though I clearly introduce each argument, indicating what its about.

Given your obvious error, I should think that your dismissive tone (again!) is entirely unwarranted.

The posts are dated as follows: 26 Dec 2008, 12:47 eastern, 29 Dec 2008, 7:22 PM eastern.

They deal in detail with how Paul ascribes the Romans 9:4 "Israel" blessings to the "Jew plus Gentile" church

Please do not be insulting when it is you who are mistaken about whether I have provided the detailed argument that I said I did.

 

[Drew]

... that you have not engaged - about how, in Romans 4 to 8, Paul ascribes each of the "Israel" covenant blessing of 9:4 to the Jew + Gentile family of faith. This, apart from any other arguments, is devastating evidence to the effect that Paul considers the Jew + Gentile family of faith as being the intended recipients of the "true" content of the Israel blessing of 9:4. Paul could not be clearer - the Jew + Gentile family of faith is the "true" Israel.

I am beginning to suspect that you do not know the difference between assertions and evidence.

My arguments are detailed and you seemed unable to locate them - let the reader decide as to which of us exhibits a lack of competence. I have now told explicitly where they are. Perhaps it would be constructive if you actually engaged them instead of slipping back into your tired strategy of snide, and sometimes not so snide, comments about my abilities.[/quote]

I have already argued that your analysis of Abraham merely as the father of those who have faith is not true to what Paul says in Romans 4, where Paul clearly evokes covenantal promises made to Abraham and shows that the true recipients of those promises are a family constituted b both Jews and Gentiles.

Yes, what is so painfully obvious is that you pick a phrase in Romans 4, and then continually over and over assert that the whole book relates to Abraham and Gentiles, and then do a logicless back flip to say its all about covenant, therefore Paul's idea of justification is future, and then you assert that Romans 2:13 demonstrates that future justification is based upon present works.

Just as I have been saying, you jump all over the book, pick out a word here, an a phrase there, and then import meaning.

This is not an argument of any kind. It is merely a re-capitulation of a strategy you often use - to make vague claims that do not engage the actual content of my argument. My argument is what it is - please engage its content.

The fact is that in his Romans 9 argument, Paul makes this statement:

Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

Paul has already told us in Romans 4 who the offspring of Abraham are and further clarified these are the heirs of the promise. And he tells us that these offspring are both Jew and Gentile. I am merely pointing out that Paul would not make a statement about who Abraham's true descendents are (and describe them as children of promise) in Romans 4, and then use the same terminology in Romans 9 to denote an entirely different group, as you believe he is doing.
And the fact that the structure of Romans 9 and 10 is a concise summary of the covenant dealings of God with Israel from Abraham all the way to Christ makes the case that covenant is very much on Paul's mind - as if that were not otherwise obvious the Romans 4 connection to covenant promises in relation to "Abraham's offspring" and the "children of promise".

 

[Drew]

Of course, I have been saying that Abraham is the Father of all faithful (Gentiles and Jews). That is where it ends. I see no need to relate this to the Abrahamic Covenant. The text of Romans never quotes the covenantal promises.

I do not see how you can possibly hold such a position. Paul is quite clear here in Romans 4 that the Jew + Gentile family of faith are Abraham's true offspring and true heirs of the covenant promises made in Genesis.

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c]

In verse 17, Paul directly quotes from Genesis 17:5

No longer shall your name be called [a]Abram,
But (A)your name shall be Abraham;
For (B)I have made you the father of a multitude of nations

As is well known, Genesis 17 deals with the establishment of the covenant.

Are you denying that Paul is quoting from Genesis 17:5 in Romans 4:17?

Are you denying that Genesis 17 deals with covenant terms and covenant promises?

Are you denying that, in Romans 4, Paul is including the Gentiles as heirs to this Genesis 17:5 covenantal promise?

What about Romans 4:13? I ask similar questions in relation to that text:

Are you denying that Paul is making a reference to Genesis 17:4-6 in Romans 4:13?

Are you denying that Genesis 17 deals with covenant terms and covenant promises?

Are you denying that, in Romans 4, Paul is including the Gentiles as heirs to this Genesis 17:5 covenantal promise?

To assert that anytime the scriptures mentions Abraham, it must be talking about Covenant is an absurdity you probably will never grasp.

Well at least I can recognize quoting covenantal promises when I see it.

 

[mondar]

I must admit my mouth hung open at such a claim. You merely gave the chapters some sort of titles. Drew, can you really be serious in making such mammoth claims? Did I miss something you wrote?

Maybe you make such absurd claims to make yourself feel scholarly and important? You have so far presented not even one discussion of the unity of even one chapter and how it relates to a topic.

You are mistaken - I have done precisely as I said I have done. In two lengthy posts in this thread, I have made the detailed arguments you seem incapable of locating, even though I clearly introduce each argument, indicating what its about.

Given your obvious error, I should think that your dismissive tone (again!) is entirely unwarranted.

The posts are dated as follows: 26 Dec 2008, 12:47 eastern, 29 Dec 2008, 7:22 PM eastern.

They deal in detail with how Paul ascribes the Romans 9:4 "Israel" blessings to the "Jew plus Gentile" church

Please do not be insulting when it is you who are mistaken about whether I have provided the detailed argument that I said I did.

Drew, I looked again at the post you mentioned and still am shocked that you feel that is some sort of detailed presentation of evidence. It is merely a listing of verses with words like "Law," "covenant," "glory," and "sonship." You do not demonstrate how even one of those words fit in with the local context in which they occur. You do not proceed verse by verse to demonstrate how the content of all the parts fit into the theme that the apostle is presenting. In fact it seems to me that you have no ability to understand or work with a context of scripture. Usually you mention the words you want, then jump to a completely different context and assume a connection. You have yet to offer your first explanation from the context of Romans why you make such connections. It seems to me that you do not have the ability to read scriptures in their context.

Drew, I have argued with many different people in this forum. I strongly disagree with many of them. For instance, I strongly disagree with Bubba in the Universalist debate thread, but Bubba is light years ahead of you. Maybe I aint that great either, but you are the one making grandiose claims on the basis of nothing.

 

[Drew]

It seems to me that you do not have the ability to read scriptures in their context.

Well, as I have already demonstrated, I know to recognize covenantal references when I encounter. And this statement of yours is demonstrably incorrect:

Of course, I have been saying that Abraham is the Father of all faithful (Gentiles and Jews). That is where it ends. I see no need to relate this to the Abrahamic Covenant. The text of Romans never quotes the covenantal promises

I will be interested in seeing your answers to my questions about how in Romans 4, in the context of a discussion of who Abraham's true children really are, Paul quotes directly from a covenant promise from Genesis 17, and makes the case that this very covenant promise is really for the Jew plus Gentile family of faith who are indeed these very true children. You do not need to be a genius to draw the obvious conclusion - Paul sees this Jew + Gentile family as the "true" Israel.

 

[Drew]

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11. Then Paul quotes a phrase relating to the new covenant, not the abrahamic covenant.

Compare Romans to a passage that actually discusses covenants. Read Hebrews 8 or 10. Whole sections of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are quoted. Is there any such quotes of Abrahamic covenantly material in Romans? No!

From Romans 4 (to add to other explicit references to the Abrahamic covenant in Romans 4):

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

And, of course, Paul is quoting from this Abrahamic covenant promise of Genesis 15:5:

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the starsâ€â€if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Now, remember what you wrote:

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11

Do you still stand by this statement?

 

[Drew]

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11. Then Paul quotes a phrase relating to the new covenant, not the abrahamic covenant.

Compare Romans to a passage that actually discusses covenants. Read Hebrews 8 or 10. Whole sections of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are quoted. Is there any such quotes of Abrahamic covenantly material in Romans? No!

From Romans 9:

For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

This is part of the covenant that God made with Abraham:

So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes." 7Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10He said, "(F)I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.

Now, remember what you wrote:

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11

Do you still stand by this statement?

 

[mondar]

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11. Then Paul quotes a phrase relating to the new covenant, not the abrahamic covenant.

Compare Romans to a passage that actually discusses covenants. Read Hebrews 8 or 10. Whole sections of Jeremiah 31:31-34 are quoted. Is there any such quotes of Abrahamic covenantly material in Romans? No!

From Romans 9:

For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

This is part of the covenant that God made with Abraham:

So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes." 7Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10He said, "(F)I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.

If you understood how Romans 9:9 and its relation to Romans 9:6 you would not be saying what you are. What Paul is saying about Romans 9:9 is explained in verse 8. Isaac was the "children of promise." The Abrahamic Covenant does not promise a seed singular in the sense of Isaac. The promised seed is Christ (see Galatians).

The point of 9:9 is that Isaac is an illustration of the concept of a "true Israel" within genetic Israel. Nothing in 9:9 points to the fact that Gentiles are included in "true Israel."

I know where you will go with this... Yes, there are covenant terms in Chapter 9. The very term "covenant" appears in verse 4. Stronger covenant terms are used in vs 25 to 26.

I honestly dont know what to say Drew. I point out that you only use a term here, a phrase there, and never actually pull the context together anywhere. What do you do? You continue pointing to words and phrases. Why dont you relate every part of some passage to a theme as I did in Romans 9? If you go to the bible study section of this board ( viewtopic.php?f=32&t=32622&start=45 ) you will see how I related each part of James 2:14-26 to its central theme. What I am doing is contextualizing a passage and relating all parts to a central theme. Until you relate every single part, every phrase, every word in a passage to the central theme, you have not put anything in context. So then, to merely quote a word here, and a phrase there is meaningless.

Drew, I dont see the meaning of any conversation between us. We not only disagree on issues within the scriptures, we disagree on even how to read the scriptures. We approach the book in two completely different ways. Meaning in any book begins with sentences, then sentences are put together in cohesive paragraphs, and paragraphs develop a theme. It is basic to communication. We do it unconsciously even as we write.

Now, remember what you wrote:

There are no quotes of covenantal material in Romans until Chapter 11

Do you still stand by this statement?

Yes, there are no quotes of covenantal material. However, let me qualify what I am saying. Many passage in the OT relate to Covenants. They have covenant terminology, but they are not speaking of the cutting of covenant. An example of this would be in Exodus 32 Moses appeals to the abrahamic covenant as a basis for God to forgive Israel for their sin in the wilderness. That is not what I am talking about "Covenant material." By the term "Covenant material" I am referring to the direct cutting of covenant.

Drew, I must admit that I am exasperated with you not getting some basic concepts of reading a context. I can see that you will continue to keep replying because of some need you have to win a debate. At this point, I doubt hardly anyone will be reading this thread because of you and me going back and forth so much. So why dont you make your last post and then I will try to not respond. Only, please, if I can ask a favor, only make more post after this. Then you get the last word and can feel like you won some debate. Fair enough?

 

[Drew]

If you understood how Romans 9:9 and its relation to Romans 9:6 you would not be saying what you are. What Paul is saying about Romans 9:9 is explained in verse 8. Isaac was the "children of promise." The Abrahamic Covenant does not promise a seed singular in the sense of Isaac. The promised seed is Christ (see Galatians).

The point of 9:9 is that Isaac is an illustration of the concept of a "true Israel" within genetic Israel. Nothing in 9:9 points to the fact that Gentiles are included in "true Israel."

No. Your position here is incompatible with the implications of what Paul writes in verse 8.

When we read 9:6, we have to acknowledge that it is indeed possible that Paul is going to deliver an explanation of how there is a "true" Israel within genetic Israel. It is also possible that the "true" Israel of 9:6 is the Jew + Gentile church. Paul uses the term "Israel" in Galatians in precisely this way - to denote the church.

So, when we read 9:6, both of these interpretations of what Paul means by the "true" Israel of that verse are on the table.

However, what Paul says next reveals that he cannot consider his "true" Israel to be a subset of national Israel:

7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Paul is identifying the "true" children of Abraham within the context of a covenant promise. And these people are obviously members of the "true" Israel of 9:6.

What has Paul done in Romans 4? He has identified the Jew + Gentile family of faith as Abraham's true children, again within the specific context of a covenental promise.

You are free to believe that Paul would argue that Abraham's true covenantal family in Romans 4 are Jew + Gentile and here in Romans 9, they are only Jews.

I choose to believe that Paul is being consistent - that when Paul refers to Abraham's true descendents in terms of covenantal promise (here in chapter 9)

Again, the reader needs to know what when we first encounter the "true" Israel of 9:6, the Israel that not all Jacobs' descendents are members of, we need to be open to the possibility that this is a Jew + Gentile family. This is because Paul has used the term "Israel" in precisely this sense in Galatians.

Therefore, one cannot simply assume that 9:6 and following is a discussion about a sub-set of national Israel for precisely the reason given in the preceding paragraph.

And it can be easily shown that what follows 9:6 is entirely consistent with the position that the "true" Israel of 9:6 is in fact a Jew plus Gentile group.

 

[Drew]

Only, please, if I can ask a favor, only make more post after this. Then you get the last word and can feel like you won some debate. Fair enough?

You have raised some interesting objections to what I have written. I feel that I need to fully address them beyond what I have already written. So I will continue to post since I think more needs to be written to give a clear and robust argument.

I am not really interested in winning a "debate" - I am interested in a detailed and proper analysis of Romans 9 and this matter of true Israel.