Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)

[TrevorL]

Greetings reddogs,

So what does history shows us in 1798 AD, it shows Napoleon's army under General Berthier entered Rome with his French troops and took down this entity.

I enjoyed and agreed with your exposition in Posts #1-3, and agree that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is the Anti-Christ and is the Papacy, both during the 1260 years persecution of the faithful, and the Papacy is the Anti-Christ, who will again oppose Christ and His Coming.

The 1260 year period when the antichrist power would preside over the dark ages, with its persecution and inquisitions, etc began a little later in 538 AD after the Roman Empire and the Caesars ruling at Rome had collapsed to allow another power to come in and the eastern empire ruler Emperor Justinian issued his famous decree that made the Pope the legal "Head of all the Holy Churches". This began the prophesized reign of that antichrist during the Dark Ages, starting at 538 AD and reigning unfettered till 1798 AD, when it took a blow to its power.

I endorse fully this fulfillment of the 1260 days as a significant indication of the truth of Daniel's prophecy and your interpretation of this. Another feature that may not be well expounded in your fellowship is that I also believe that the 1260 days can have two fulfillments. The first is as you state, but the second starts with the Decree of Phocus in AD 610 where a similar decree was issued by the Emperor in the East in favour of the Papacy. When we come to AD 1870 we discover another significant decline of the Papacy. The Papacy then lost the three Papal Sates and the Pope himself suffered severely for a while, and then ended up with the Vatican City.

I have not carefully examined the rest of the Posts in this thread, and I consider that they could be diverting attention away from what you have clearly established. I will read these but I am not very interested in most of this.

I most probably have a different view to you on Daniel 8 and the 2300 years, and also the sequence of events surrounding the return of Christ, the Battle of Armageddon and the aftermath, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. But I commend you for your clear testimony in Posts #1-3.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Smidge]

That was a great exposition until it failed. John's vision of the Beast Empire rising from the sea, has a Grecian body, therefore the kingdom of Assyria is a major part. The Antichrist will trace his lineage back to Antiochus, an Assyrian Jewish Christian named Adonikam according to John's riddle and many pertinent Scriptures:

The Antichrist His Names Titles and Ancestry | End Time News

The Antichrist will appear in the guise of Christ, to oppose Christ. Paul called him the "Son of Destruction" which implies a Jewish-Christian miracle worker evangelist. His name is Adonikam and he will rise from obscurity near the ancient city of Antioch, modern Turkey. He is from ancient...

endtimenews.net

Many of us believe the anti-Christ will be an Assyrian.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Many of us believe the anti-Christ will be an Assyrian.

I agree. Assyria included the area of Iraq, Mosul which then was known as Nineveh. But I expect him to become famous in Turkey, somewhere near Antioch. I believe he will have Antiochus in his lineage, the parallels between Antichrist and Antiochus imply there is a connection.

 

[reddogs]

I disagree. Commentators throughout history have wondered how the "antichrist" (against Christ) can also be a "false Christ". Paul hints how when he uses two names, the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2:3) to describe him. He first appears as the false Christ "man of sin" condoning sin, but after 3.5 years reveals himself to be "the antichrist" betrayer, "son of perdition."

The Two Phases of Antichrist: Man of Sin and Son of Destruction | End Time News

The Two Phases of The Antichrist: Man of Sin and Son of Destruction Give no belief to false words: because there will first be a falling away from the faith, and the revelation of the man of sin (266 ἁμαρτία hamartia), the son of destruction (684 ἀπώλεια apoleia), (2 Thess. 2:3 BBE) "Man of sin"

endtimenews.net

That is why the Beast (government) that rises from the sea has two mouths, one like a lion (False Christ) the first 3.5 years, then a blasphemous mouth (Antichrist; little horn)

NKJ Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (Rev. 13:1-7 NKJ)

That is confirmed in Daniel, at first he covenants with the world's religions, but in "mid week" (3.5 years) brings to an end all religious practice that isn't worship of himself:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan. 9:27 NKJ)

He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. (Rev. 13:13 NKJ)

Britian and America unite under a False Prophet and with their "alien tech", a "flying wing" the Beast controls, he can rain down fire on anyone who opposes him, perhaps a space based weapon:

Is the Wing of Abominations in Daniel 9:27 a Demon Powered UFO? | End Time News

What is the "wing of abominations" in Daniel 9:27? A literal rendering of the Hebrew text is, “And on the wing of abominations one who causes desolation [will come].”-Miller, S. R. (1994). Daniel (Vol. 18, pp. 272–273). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers. "Abominations" usually refers to...

endtimenews.net

Its also their computer technology that makes the 666 Mark membership only economy possible. Against the better judgment of the earth's leaders, they are convinced to build the monstrosity and give it control of their economies:

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (Rev. 13:14 NKJ)

Well, look at the pagan rites and rituals and doctrines it brought from the Roman Empire which were the system of worship from Babylon, then you can see how it came about..

 

[DavidT]

God's Word is actually pointing to the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit being the future Antichrist that will appear in Jerusalem. The Rev.13 Scripture even symbolizes him as a "dragon", which is another title for Satan himself. In Ezekiel 28:18, God said He will bring a fire within him, upon the earth, and turn him to ashes in front of all those who see him. Apostle Paul showed that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Will some human flesh-born man serving Satan actually have the power to perform great signs and wonders and miracles, and rain fire down from heaven in the sight of men? Is that really a pope as the coming Antichrist? Do you really... think the 'image of man' can only apply to flesh man, when God showed the image of man originates from His Own Image, and of how He also made the angels with that image of man?

Can the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" actually be about a flesh man?

How many here actually understand per God's Word that there are TWO dimensions of existence per His Word, and not just this earthly dimension we live in?

Do you think The Bible is lying when it shows angels that appeared on earth to Abraham and Lot, and those angels ate the food which Abraham and Lot prepared for them? Was Hebrews 13 lying to us in reminding us to be mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels and didn't know it?

Did the Israelites in the wilderness actually receive 'manna' from Heaven to eat?

How many here actually believe in miracles??

If you are one of the few that understands what I am pointing to, then know that the one coming in the role of the Antichrist will be of supernatural origin, not flesh origin. So one can forget his coming from the flesh, though his servants here that will set him up as king of the world will claim... he comes from the tribe of Judah, of the house of David.

So forget the coming Antichrist being an Assyrian, or any other nation than Israel. The coming Antichrist we were shown by Lord Jesus is coming to play HIM-The Messiah of The Bible, not some foreigner, not a pope, not an Arab, but a Jew.

 

[reddogs]

Greetings reddogs,

I enjoyed and agreed with your exposition in Posts #1-3, and agree that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is the Anti-Christ and is the Papacy, both during the 1260 years persecution of the faithful, and the Papacy is the Anti-Christ, who will again oppose Christ and His Coming.

I endorse fully this fulfillment of the 1260 days as a significant indication of the truth of Daniel's prophecy and your interpretation of this. Another feature that may not be well expounded in your fellowship is that I also believe that the 1260 days can have two fulfillments. The first is as you state, but the second starts with the Decree of Phocus in AD 610 where a similar decree was issued by the Emperor in the East in favour of the Papacy. When we come to AD 1870 we discover another significant decline of the Papacy. The Papacy then lost the three Papal Sates and the Pope himself suffered severely for a while, and then ended up with the Vatican City.

I have not carefully examined the rest of the Posts in this thread, and I consider that they could be diverting attention away from what you have clearly established. I will read these but I am not very interested in most of this.

I most probably have a different view to you on Daniel 8 and the 2300 years, and also the sequence of events surrounding the return of Christ, the Battle of Armageddon and the aftermath, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. But I commend you for your clear testimony in Posts #1-3.

Kind regards
Trevor

Well, as long as we seek what God gives us to understand, He is pleased. All will be unveiled before the end, so no worries for the faithful...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again reddogs,

Well, as long as we seek what God gives us to understand, He is pleased. All will be unveiled before the end, so no worries for the faithful...

Yes, we should humbly seek to understand what God has been pleased to reveal. If you look at various commentaries on Daniel 12:4, there is often mention of the greater movement of people, by such means as planes, trains and automobiles. Although this is true, and has helped the spread of knowledge in general, I believe that it is talking about the spread of knowledge concerning the things of God, especially an understanding of End Time Events.
Daniel 12:4 (KJV): But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

This is also reinforced in the following that despite the fact that some of the events would not be understood until the time of the end, in contrast at the time of the end "the wise shall understand". An interesting feature of what has been hidden, but should now be understood by the faithful wise, are the three time periods, and this is a challenge for us to correctly understand.
Daniel 12:5–13 (KJV): 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

These three time periods have been discussed in my fellowship in recent years and also very recently and I am more than satisfied with the general consensus revealed by some of our respected senior expositors. I feel very blessed with this understanding, which indicates God is working to bring about the complete fulfillment of Daniel 12 soon and the events leading up to this, as detailed in Daniel 11:40-45 regarding the Time of the End. This understanding is different to Protestant Commentators, in other words I have not encountered a similar view to what our fellowship has determined.

Also our view is very different from the SDA view. One of the SDA problems is that they do not see that Israel have still a place in God's purpose on the earth, as the SDAs are convinced that natural Israel and the nations will be burnt up together with the earth for the 1000 years, and they are locked into worrying about the supposed anticipated Sunday Sabbath Law because of the strange false prophecy by EG White in her book The Great Controversy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DavidT]

There are also four kingdoms in the Image the king dreamed We can see the last part of the Image is not not another world kingdom, but the same as the Iron kingdom, since the Iron of the legs extend all the way down and ends at the toes. Only at that point, that last stage of the last kingdom will be partly weak and party strong, represented by the Iron and the Clay, and divided into ten divisions when the Kingdom of Iron or Roman Empire falls apart.

Thinking the feet of clay mixed with iron is just an extension of the "legs of iron" is where many leave the actual Bible Scripture about the final beast at the end of this world.

The clay is shown as a separate piece of the beast statue in Daniel 2 when the beast is destroyed by Jesus ('stone') at His future coming...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

Count 'em. That represents 5... beast kingdoms in all, the final one for in the days of Christ's future coming being the 5th beast kingdom.

Even though the 'final' beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay is described in Daniel 7 as the 4th beast, it's actually a 5th beast per Daniel 2.

 

[DavidT]

Also the Hebrew word for "subdue" (KJV) in Daniel 7:24 about the "little horn" that will subdue 3 of the 10 kings, that word can also mean to 'abase, or humble', and not to literally destroy.

The final beast world kingdom will involve 10 kings per Rev.17. The "little horn" of Daniel 7 & 8 represents an 11th beast king that comes to power among... those 10 kings. As we are told "seven mountains" are the "seven heads" of the final beast kingdom, that represents 7 continents of the earth, with 7 kings over that, and leaving the subdued kings over... what?

The main goal of the think-tank Trilateral Commission is about dividing the earth up into a three-sectional structure with the idea of Unions. The European Union was the fulfillment of the first stage. They still have it planned for an American Union, and an Asia-Pacific Union. John Rockefeller was one of the leading founders of the Trilateral Commission, and he put ex-President Jimmy Carter and state official Zbigniew Brzezinski in charge of it.

Thus I believe the 3 kings subdued by the "little horn", and the remaining 7 kings will be about the Antichrist's future power structure over the earth, the 3 kings in power over the 3 Unions dividing the earth into 3 parts, and then the 7 kings in power over the 7 continents (or "seven heads").

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings DavidT,

Even though the 'final' beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay is described in Daniel 7 as the 4th beast, it's actually a 5th beast per Daniel 2.

No, the feet and toes are still part of the fourth Kingdom, and represents a continuation of the Roman Fourth Beast of Daniel 7.

Also the Hebrew word for "subdue" (KJV) in Daniel 7:24 about the "little horn" that will subdue 3 of the 10 kings, that word can also mean to 'abase, or humble', and not to literally destroy.

The three Kingdoms or territories subdued by the Little Horn are the three Papal States, and the Papacy lost these three states in AD 1870, 1260 years after the Decree of Phocas in AD 610.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DavidT]

Greetings DavidT,

No, the feet and toes are still part of the fourth Kingdom, and represents a continuation of the Roman Fourth Beast of Daniel 7.

I disagree.

And it's because we are given a very powerful hint about the structure of the final beast kingdom, which will be the one in Revelation 13:1.

Dan 2:43-44
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV

Firstly -- per the above 44 verse, the timing when those ten kings manifest, represented by the feet of ten toes, is ONLY at the END of this world when the final beast king of Revelation 17:12-14 will manifest. That is the timing Revelation 17:12-13 shows when all 10 kings come to power, and give their power to the beast (king). That also reveals in Revelation 17:12-14, that the day of Jesus' future return is when those kings will be manifested, and make war with Jesus, and He will defeat them with His coming.

That means of course, one cannot... simply assign those 10 kings to back in history; that does not work and loses common sense completely going against the written Bible Scripture.

 

[DavidT]

Greetings DavidT,

No, the feet and toes are still part of the fourth Kingdom, and represents a continuation of the Roman Fourth Beast of Daniel 7.

....

Secondly -- the following verse about the 5th beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes (ten kings) of part iron mixed with part clay, which is the final beast system at the end of this world ("great tribulation" timing), has a much deeper meaning that not many are prepared to accept.

Dan 2:43-44
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The subject there is about "they" will literally try to mingle with the 'seed' (Aramaic zera, meaning literal seed), of men.

That suggests there's something more going on with those ten kings at the end of this world. It suggests a supernatural type of working involving the mixing of the 'seed' of men with something else.

Lord Jesus did warn us that in the days of His future return, it would be like the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37-39). What was happening in the days of Noah?
Per the Genesis 6 Scripture, the "sons of God" are mentioned looking upon the daughters of Adam, and taking wives of them. In Old Testament Scripture, the "sons of God" phrase always meant the angels. Noah is even said to have been "perfect" in his generations, with the Hebrew word for "perfect" being about the unblemished requirement of animals for sacrifice per the old covenant, pointing to Noah's bloodline purity. That event of those angels taking wives of the daughters of Adam is also mentioned in the Book of Jude, about their not keeping their first estate, and left their own habitation.

Jude 6-7
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
KJV

A group of Satan's angels came to earth and took wives of the daughters of the man Adam (eth ha' aadam' in the Hebrew, meaning the specific man Adam of Gen.2). Satan was attempting to taint the Seed of the Woman, i.e., the family that Jesus Christ would be born through. Satan made many attempts to prevent Christ's birth in the flesh, the last one through king Herod who had all the babies under two years old slain in hopes of it including baby Jesus.

Thus the flood of Noah's day was God's way of wiping out the illegal mixing of those angels with the daughters of the man Adam. And Genesis 6 shows there was a second irruption of that mixing again after the flood, which God then told the children of Israel to go wipe out the specific nations of Canaan where their 'giant' offspring dwelt (Deuteronomy 20).

The following Scripture is for the END of this world, for the coming "great tribulation" time...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

That event is still future to us today. Some wrongly try to assign it to the time of Satan's original rebellion in the old world. But the type of events given along with this event verify it is for the very END, the coming "great tribulation" timing.

That, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" after Satan's war with Archangel Michael and his angels, means Satan and his angels will be 'literally' cast out of the heavenly dimension. Since God's Word declares the existence of only 2 different types of dimensions, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels dwell, that means Satan and his angels are coming... here... in OUR earthly dimension.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Even though Lord Jesus has already defeated Satan via Jesus' death and resurrection, Satan still has a role to play in God's Plan for the END of this world, and even still after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. One once Satan is cast out of the heavenly dimension period, down to earth in person among us, in plain sight, will that verse 10 be fulfilled. Until then, Satan right now is still allowed to accuse us before God's Throne.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

That verse 11 event is especially about those brethren of the 5th Seal of Revelation 6 for the END of this world that are to be killed as those under God's Altar were that are asking God "how long?" before He avenges their blood. Mark 13:9-13, Matthew 24:9-10, and Luke 21:12-19 are about that delivering up of some us at the END to give that Testimony for Jesus with allowing The Holy Spirit to speak through us.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

That "short time" is the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world when false-Messiah appears in Jerusalem and is setup as king over all nations. It is the "one hour" of the last laborers of the vineyard in Christ's parable (Matt.20); the hour before midnight in Christ's ten virgins parable (Matt.25); the "one hour" that the 10 kings receive power with the beast (Rev.17:12); the "hour of temptation" Jesus promised to protect His elect from (Rev.3).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DavidT,

That means of course, one cannot... simply assign those 10 kings to back in history; that does not work and loses common sense completely going against the written Bible Scripture.

I consider that the feet and toes represent an earlier development, as to what happened with the so-called decline and fall of the Roman Empire, where elements of the Roman System persisted, but there were invasions of the Roman territories by the Goths, Vandals and similar and the previous Roman Empire was split into approximately ten territories. The Papacy then emerged and took over three of these and these became known as the Papal States. The Papacy had dominance and persecuted the faithful for 1260 years, from Justinian AD 529-533 to the French Revolution AD 1789-1783 and from Phocus until the Papacy lost the Papal States in AD 1870.

Nevertheless there has continued the subdivision of the former Roman Territory into various Nation States. After Armageddon, a majority of these Nations States will join with the Papacy and oppose the rule of Jesus from Jerusalem. The Papacy is the Anti-Christ system, and will be especially opposed to Christ and His Kingdom after Jesus establishes Himself on the Davidic Temple Throne in Jerusalem at the start of the Kingdom

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DavidT]

Greetings again DavidT,

I consider that the feet and toes represent an earlier development, as to what happened with the so-called decline and fall of the Roman Empire, ....

I well understood that idea you speak of, but the Revelation 17 Scripture is very clear as to 'when' those "ten kings" will manifest and come to power...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

IMPORTANT:
The above verse 14 time of that "war with the Lamb" (Jesus) places the time when those "ten kings" manifest and come to power. It is showing it will be at the end of this world. Verse 12 even reveals those "ten kings" don't receive power until the time of that "beast".

The "beast" those "ten kings" give their power to is the beast king mentioned in the previous Rev.17:8-11 verses, and will be that 7th beast king for the end of this present world. It will be Satan himself, because only he and his angels are the only ones already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. No flesh-born man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas. Even in Rev.11 we are shown it will be Satan that 'ascends out of the bottomless pit' to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem for the end, leaving their dead bodies laying in the street.

Many brethren are simply not prepared for what is coming with the "great tribulation" that is just around the corner. The majority of the world will not believe it is Satan literally on earth with the image of man doing all the great signs and wonders to deceive that Lord Jesus warned us about.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DavidT,

I well understood that idea you speak of, but the Revelation 17 Scripture is very clear as to 'when' those "ten kings" will manifest and come to power...

Yes, I consider that ten kings will emerge and will be opposing Christ after Armageddon, but I also believe that Daniel 2 is sequential and also matches Daniel 7 and both of these indicate that 10 Kingdoms emerged aster the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[follower]

Many brethren are simply not prepared for what is coming with the "great tribulation" that is just around the corner. The majority of the world will not believe it is Satan literally on earth with the image of man doing all the great signs and wonders to deceive that Lord Jesus warned us about.

Soberly, with great remorse for their failure, pastors wept endless tears for their congregations that were obliterated in china in the boxer rebellion (I think that time; applies to other times though also)
when the people were offered: die now, or deny Christ. Those who were faithful died then and there. Those who denied Christ died slowly over the future hours, days, weeks, months and years.
The pastors wept bitterly because they had told the people they would not have to suffer because they would be raptured and kept from harm.

 

[DavidT]

Greetings again DavidT,

Yes, I consider that ten kings will emerge and will be opposing Christ after Armageddon, but I also believe that Daniel 2 is sequential and also matches Daniel 7 and both of these indicate that 10 Kingdoms emerged aster the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Kind regards
Trevor

Once again, I cannot agree with you.

The battle of Armageddon represents the last battle on earth on the final day of this world when Jesus returns, what is called the "day of the Lord".

And since the Rev.17 Scripture I showed reveals the "ten kings" do not come to power until the time of the "beast", which is linked to the days of Christ's return, that means the speculated 10 nations and kings of European history is a bogus speculation from men's doctrines.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DavidT,

Once again, I cannot agree with you.

That's fine, there must be at least 50 different assessments of the End Time events.

The battle of Armageddon represents the last battle on earth on the final day of this world when Jesus returns, what is called the "day of the Lord".

We seem to differ here, but I consider the Battle of Armageddon as the first major battle resulting in a great change in the Holy Land. I consider the Battle of Armageddon as described in Revelation 16:12-16 is parallel with Ezekiel 38, Daniel 2:35,44, 11:40-45, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14. Each of these give different detail and the composite picture gives some idea of what will happen. No I do not believe in the destruction of the earth, but the replacement of the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God with Jesus ruling the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

And since the Rev.17 Scripture I showed reveals the "ten kings" do not come to power until the time of the "beast", which is linked to the days of Christ's return, that means the speculated 10 nations and kings of European history is a bogus speculation from men's doctrines.

We will have to differ here. Possibly if we resolve some of the other aspects, then a better agreement on Revelation 17 will emerge.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DavidT]

Soberly, with great remorse for their failure, pastors wept endless tears for their congregations that were obliterated in china in the boxer rebellion (I think that time; applies to other times though also)
when the people were offered: die now, or deny Christ. Those who were faithful died then and there. Those who denied Christ died slowly over the future hours, days, weeks, months and years.
The pastors wept bitterly because they had told the people they would not have to suffer because they would be raptured and kept from harm.

Well, what you just said is one of the main problems I was pointing to that many brethren simply are not prepared for what is coming with the future "great tribulation".

You see, I wasn't pointing to our possible 'physical' persecution during the coming "great tribulation". The idea of physical persecution is not... really what the coming "great tribulation" will be about. I know, that probably goes against years of what the Church has been taught about that time.

What God's Word is actually pointing to with the coming "great tribulation" will be about falling away with believing on the wrong Christ. The tribulation will be great, because it is mainly about being deceived to the coming false-Messiah, wrongly thinking he is God having come.

Deceived Christian pastors will say it is Jesus Christ, along with deceived Jews claiming it is their Messiah. This is why one of the main warnings Lord Jesus gave us in His SIGNS for the end that when someone comes up to us and says something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to not believe it (Matthew 24:23-26). Jesus even warned that coming false one will work great signs and wonders so deceptive, that it would deceive even His very elect, if possible.

And where the actual physical persecution will come upon the saints still alive, will be when they are caught refusing... to bow to that false-Messiah, or his "image of the beast" idol that will be setup. Jesus showed even deceived loved ones will turn us in for refusing that fake-Messiah. So that is a lot different than being delivered up for just being a Christian.

 

[DavidT]

Greetings again DavidT,

That's fine, there must be at least 50 different assessments of the End Time events.

And the one you keep espousing here about 10 previous European kings of history linked with the papacy is one of those many speculations by men's doctrines, while what I am saying is actually keeping with the Rev.17 Scripture that I posted, showing the "ten kings" (ten horns) of the Book of Daniel only manifest at the very END of this world when the final beast king appears for the coming "great tribulation" time.

So please, don't bear false witness against the actual Revelation 17 Bible Scripture evidence with your "50 different assessments of the End Time events" theory.

We seem to differ here, but I consider the Battle of Armageddon as the first major battle resulting in a great change in the Holy Land. I consider the Battle of Armageddon as described in Revelation 16:12-16 is parallel with Ezekiel 38, Daniel 2:35,44, 11:40-45, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14. Each of these give different detail and the composite picture gives some idea of what will happen. No I do not believe in the destruction of the earth, but the replacement of the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God with Jesus ruling the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

What "vial" does the battle of Armageddon happen on per that Revelation 16 Chapter? Answer: on the final 7th Vial, and that represents the "day of the Lord", the very last day of this present world when Jesus returns.

Don't you remember that both Apostles Paul and Peter said the "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"? and that Jesus warns the Church on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief"? That's "day of the Lord" timing, the final day of this world. That also is the last day when Jesus said the resurrection of life will happen (John 6:40).

That also is when the battle of Zechariah 14 takes place on the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' coming, and also the destruction of the army coming out of the northern quarters upon Israel, and the Daniel 2 destruction by the "stone" (Jesus Christ) upon the final beast, and the "day of the Lord" destruction per the prophets, not only per Joel 3 but many of the other Old Testament prophets too.

Thus we agree on that final battle timing, I think, on the final day of this world. That's why I'm curious why in your previous post #35 you said the following...

You said:
"I consider that ten kings will emerge and will be opposing Christ after Armageddon...".

That is not what you are saying in your post #38. So what doctrine is it you left out there regarding "a great change in the Holy Land"?

I hope you are not referring to the orthodox Jew's deception of God restoring ALL the nation of Israel in the holy land prior to Christ's actual future return, for that idea is NOT written. The Orthodox Jews today that reject Jesus as Messiah will continue to do so all the way ... up to His future return on the last day of this world. And then when Jesus returns, those deceived Jews will wail in shame because of learning the truth on that day about Jesus of Nazareth, and like Jesus said, they will wish for the mountains and the hills to, "Cover us" because of their shame for having rejected Him, per the parable of Luke 23 'Blessed are the barren...' . (also See the end of Zechariah 12 about that.)

We will have to differ here. Possibly if we resolve some of the other aspects, then a better agreement on Revelation 17 will emerge.

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't see us agreeing on the Revelation 17 Scripture, not as long as you reject the following simple Scripture as written...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

Even that Rev.17:14 is very simple about Jesus' future time of return, with... His saints that are "called, and chosen, and faithful." Thus the "ten horns" of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17 are about these very same "ten kings" that will only manifest at the very END of this world in the LAST generation that will see Christ's future return. Claiming those "ten kings" have anything to do with past nation's history and the papacy is a joke by false Jews that hate the Church.