Who is this Christ at the right hand of God?

[Anth]

If you don't think a fully man/fully God person makes any sense when it comes to being able to die and save us - think about the alternative...

Hi Aaron,

The problem is that there is NOT a genuine man in the traditional Christology - BUT the scripture teaches that there is. As long as you have a genuine man - a human person - I am good.

1. You would have a human sitting next to God in heaven surrounded by worshiping angels sharing in the glory of God. Scripture is clear that God doesn't share His glory with anyone.

God shares His glory with whosoever He chooses. Just like He gives authority to forgive sins to whomsoever He chooses (that excludes RC priests, btw).

2. You would have a human spirit dwelling within the spirits of all believers throughout the world.
Romans 8:10 "And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of Righteousness." Jesus has to be omnipresent in order to dwell with all believers.

I don't that Paul intended that vs to be take in the sense that Jesus is literally and personally indwelling you - or, in what sense he intended that. I perceive that it is the Holy Spirit that is indwelling us in a literal and personal way - and that Christ is in contact with His church through the Holy Spirit.

3. You would have a human able to hear the prayers of everyone on earth at the same time, be able to recognize those prayers, know who is speaking them, and be able to answer them. Since Jesus says we can pray to him "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." (John 14:14) - he must be omniscient.

Asking anything "in His name" is not the same as praying to Him.

It seems very logical to conclude that if Jesus shares the Father's glory, is omnipresent, and is omniscient, than he can't be a regular human.

If He is not a regular human then Paul, John the B, Peter and Jesus Himself (Jn8:40) are all wrong... I am not that much of a risk taker...

Best,
Anth

 

[Aaron the Tall]

The problem is that there is NOT a genuine man in the traditional Christology - BUT the scripture teaches that there is. As long as you have a genuine man - a human person - I am good.

I think we all believe he was a genuine human, but he was more than that. When I say he was not a "regular" human I mean to say he was not "just" a human. By being fully man he satisfies the requirements of being just like us in every way.

God shares His glory with whosoever He chooses.

Not according to Isaiah 42:8: "I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols." Also, in John 17:5, we see Jesus say “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.†He had glory with the Father - they shared it before the earth was created.

I don't think that Paul intended that vs to be take in the sense that Jesus is literally and personally indwelling you - or, in what sense he intended that.

There are other verses that speak of Jesus being with every believer such as Matthew 28:20 "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." He was either lying or speaking figuratively. If we can't take what He was saying hear literally - than we have to question how literal his other sayings were (especially the ones you would use to deny his divinity).

Asking anything "in His name" is not the same as praying to Him

It wasn't just asking "in His name" - Jesus said "ask ME anything in my name. Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59) as did John the Apostle (Revelation 22:20). Others give thanks to him - an aspect of prayer.

 

[glorydaz]

With God all things are possible.
Jesus was fully human and fully God.
He had a human mother and God was His father.

I get the feeling some would like to believe that God is unable to accomplish something that makes no sense to our piddling human understanding. Yet He created the universe from nothing...just by speaking it into existence. Do we argue with our Creator and claim Jesus was a mere man? I suppose some will in spite of what the Word tells us quite plainly. Just as God took on human flesh, He indwells the believer. Let man chalk that up to whatever theory pops into his head, but it doesn't change the reality believers know from first-hand experience. What is faith but believing what we cannot see with our eyes? What is faith but knowing in our hearts that God is able to do what seems impossible to man?

My comment on this thread is where is your faith? Is it in your own reasoning or in the power of God?

 

[Anth]

He had glory with the Father - they shared it before the earth was created.

Aaron - Take a look at IPet1:20 and Rev13:8, 9 as well as Eph 1:3 (I think) to clarify the meaning of Jn17:5.

 

[Anth]

I think we all believe he was a genuine human, but he was more than that. When I say he was not a "regular" human I mean to say he was not "just" a human. By being fully man he satisfies the requirements of being just like us in every way.

A human personality/person/ego/"I" - ???? The person who cried out "not MY will be done..."

And a divine personality/person/ego/"I"???

 

[veteran]

Even our Lord's name 'Jesus' is a direct pointer to God, because when we say Jesus Christ we are actually saying 'Yah is Salvation'. Same thing if we say Iesous Christos in the Greek, or Yehoshuah Mashiyach (Messiah) in the Hebrew. We cannot even separate the Name of God from Jesus' name.

The idea that Jesus of Nazareth was some flesh man only is from 2nd century Gnosticism (I know, yal hear me use that word Gnostic a lot). But it's true, for the Gnostics blended various ideas of the Neoplatonist school and Christian doctrine together. They did not believe Jesus really died on the cross, but that His disciples took Him down before He died. They add to that lie that He lived to old age, and even that He married and had children (Brown and his Davinci Code heresies). Why do they form those false ideas?

Simple, because under the pagan mysteries, it was taught that each person must seek perfection on their own, and become gods. In oriental teachings it's the idea of being released from the 'wheel of rebirth', becoming a spiritual being living on a spirit plane. Gnosticism is where the idea we each must become our own Christ comes from also. That's about their idea that there's a force like the Christ Spirit which everyone must connect to and become pefect. And they treat our Lord Jesus simply as a man that attained perfection by connecting to and using that supposed universal Christ Spirit. Some of those groups call it 'Christ Consciousness' or 'Cosmic Consciousness'. What that idea does is delegate our Lord Jesus not as God born in the flesh, but as a human flesh man that became 'a Christ'.

That false doctrine DEPENDS on portraying Christ Jesus as human flesh man only, and not as God come in the flesh.

 

[anasazi avatar]

Where is the human person/ego/I of Jesus - the Man Christ Jesus - the person who called out "not MY will be done but THY will be done..." -the only mediator of Mankind?? Where is he??

Anth

I can see the quandary you are expressing. When Jesus was baptized a voice from heaven spoke. In Revelations there was only one Person pure enough to take the scroll from the hand of God. When Jesus Christ was crucified, God raised Him up again.
God is Love. Pure and unadulterated love. Love does have a form and can also be Spiritual. But love on it's own is powerless without a 'power' to transmit itself into actions. For us to learn of love of such purity and how to not only know of it, but to also live in it, we need guidance. John 1:1 states the Truth that in the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was in the beginning with God (our Heavenly Father), and the Word was God. Jesus also said that if you see Me you have seen the Father. As a faithful lieutenant obeys all his commanding officers' requests and carries the same authority as his superior, so Jesus Christ was God's total authority on earth.
When I read the Bible and come across Scripture that uses the name 'Jesus' only then I take it to refer to the man. When I come across Scripture that uses 'Christ' only I take it to be referring to directly coming from God the Father. And when both names are combined I take it to be referring to the Man, Jesus willfully doing what He knows within Himself to be the Fathers' will.
Jesus is a separate entity that sits on the right hand of God the Father, with the total authority of God the Father, ergo, is God.
When the earth was created God(Love) desired the earth to be created, Christ (Word) spoke what the love was desiring and the Holy Spirit (Power) created. Like a candle is 3 parts, wax, wick, flame, so the Godhead is one, but is made of 3 parts.

I hope this is of some help to you.

 

[LaCrum]

He died on the cross, He was resurrected, He is in His glorified body at the right hand of God. do you think we'll be where He is in our flesh bodies? No flesh can enter heaven. we will all be transformed into glorified bodies.
read Matthew 17, the transfiguration, Jesus in His glorified body.

I don’t believe that’s true. Christ’s body is glorified, but is still flesh. Hence his scars still being apparent and letting people touch him and put their hands in him to prove it. His body was renewed, not replaced. It was his PHYSICAL body that disappeared from the tomb and came out.

 

[Anth]

L -

That seems a bit complex - when I read ICor15 - I read of being raised in a new body?? What do you think?? I tend to think the new body is not entirely dissimilar however to the old body. This is similar to the new heavens and the new earth on which is the new Jerusalem - and into which and out of which we shall walk - in other words a very "physical" type seen - rather than floating around and playing harps...

Best,
Anth

 

[mutzrein]

When the earth was created God(Love) desired the earth to be created, Christ (Word) spoke what the love was desiring and the Holy Spirit (Power) created. Like a candle is 3 parts, wax, wick, flame, so the Godhead is one, but is made of 3 parts.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Are you suggesting that the wax is the candle, the wick is the candle and the flame is the candle in the same way that some say that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God? :gah

 

[anasazi avatar]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It is very hard to explain with words something that is Spiritually discerned. I can best explain, maybe, with Scripture:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
These verses point to two entities that are also only one. The beginning of Genesis explains how God created this earth and the heavens, and rested on the 7th dayJohn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) fullG4134 of grace and truth. Pure love, (God the Father) had a voice that spoke the word, (Christ), which was given a physical body, (Emmanuel/Jesus).

Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo,the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
In these verses we see 3 separate entities

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
These are the very Words of Christ. He is God...


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
...Always was and always will be.

Matt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Is this not true of God the Father also? He is pure and unadulterated Love. Out of the fullness of His love His Son is born. After the resurrection the time of the Holy Spirit to abide in/with man came to be.

The Scriptures are full of examples that describe this great and spiritual Godhead. We don't have 3 Gods. There is "Our Father which art in Heaven..."
The power of the Holy Spirit gives us revelation of the Truths contained in His Word...
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Please forgive me my feeble attempts at explaining things. As I said, explaining a spiritual thing is not always the easiest, especially when it is discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anth]

Please forgive me my feeble attempts at explaining things. As I said, explaining a spiritual thing is not always the easiest, especially when it is discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Actually a good hermeutic in conjunction with some rigourous exegesis taking into account cultural, linguistic and textual issues will make a lot of head way.

You can start, as an example, with de-personalizing the Logos in Jn1:1ff. The Logos becomes a person in time and history with the conception of Jesus Christ - prior to that time, it is as it always has been - an abstraction.

Best,
Anth

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It is very hard to explain with words something that is Spiritually discerned. I can best explain, maybe, with Scripture:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
These verses point to two entities that are also only one. The beginning of Genesis explains how God created this earth and the heavens, and rested on the 7th dayJohn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) fullG4134 of grace and truth. Pure love, (God the Father) had a voice that spoke the word, (Christ), which was given a physical body, (Emmanuel/Jesus).

Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo,the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
In these verses we see 3 separate entities

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
These are the very Words of Christ. He is God...


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
...Always was and always will be.

Matt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Is this not true of God the Father also? He is pure and unadulterated Love. Out of the fullness of His love His Son is born. After the resurrection the time of the Holy Spirit to abide in/with man came to be.

The Scriptures are full of examples that describe this great and spiritual Godhead. We don't have 3 Gods. There is "Our Father which art in Heaven..."
The power of the Holy Spirit gives us revelation of the Truths contained in His Word...
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Please forgive me my feeble attempts at explaining things. As I said, explaining a spiritual thing is not always the easiest, especially when it is discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You did an excellent job....don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
The natural man cannot understand spiritual things...I happen to understand exactly what you're saying. :nod

 

[glorydaz]

double post....sorry.