Christ Jesus came into the world to save ALL sinners

[Alfred Persson]

you make the same mistake as others do who TRY to "prove" that the Bible teaches predestination to salvation

Look again at what Paul actually writes, without putting your meaning into his words

"He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"

The predestination here is, "TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON", NOTHING to do with FOR SALVATION! This is about those who are ALREADY BORN-AGAIN.

Likewise in Ephesians 1:5, "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will". Here the predestination is "TO THE ADOPTION AS SONS", for those ALREADY BORN-AGAIN!

The Greek verb, προορίζω, means to "mark out before hand"

Let the CONTEXT determine what the Bible is saying, without spinning it!

So those "conformed to the image of His Son" are unsaved people? Prove it.

 

[SolaScriptura]

So those "conformed to the image of His Son" are unsaved people? Prove it.

Don't you understand what I have written?

I have very clearly said that Paul is referring to those already saved!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Don't you understand what I have written?

I have very clearly said that Paul is referring to those already saved!

Predestinated unconfromed to be conformed, so how is that Predestined saved to be saved?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Predestinated unconfromed to be conformed, so how is that Predestined saved to be saved?

God is out of time. So when He predestined anything it is in our time

As Jesus Christ is said to have Died before the foundation of the world

All who become Christians have been predestined to become children of the Lord

 

[Alfred Persson]

God is out of time. So when He predestined anything it is in our time

As Jesus Christ is said to have Died before the foundation of the world

All who become Christians have been predestined to become children of the Lord

Scripture isn't written for God to understand, but for us linear finite creatures to understand.

Believe in Jesus, then you are saved; Salvation follows belief, linear events.

What you say is absurd:

"All who BECOME Christians" were already Christians?


Typical. Arminian refuses to believe Coins have two sides, heads and tails. He can only see the side with a tail while the Calvinist only sees the side with a head. So both agree its round, but that's it.

Sherlock Holmes would immediately realize both are reporting what they see, so you put both together and you have "a coin has two sides, head and tail.

Scripture clearly says God predestined the Elect to salvation. Scripture just as clearly says "whosoever believes" (elect or not) will be saved. God is an equal opportunity saviour.

 

[Whatever]

4 “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life

Note here, Jesus is very clear that these Jews had the ABILITY to not only HEAR His voice, but to also OBEY His voice

Don't see that from the passage.

John 5:24 “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life . . .

Already has eternal life.

You say: Note here, Jesus is very clear that these Jews had the ABILITY to not only HEAR His voice, but to also OBEY His voice so that they could be saved!

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

You say that Jesus is saying that they had the ability to hear. In verse 43 He says they are not able.

Again:
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Again, cause and effect. You just brushed it off as "straw man arguments."

Effect = Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result = You do not believe.
Cause = The producer of an effect, result, or consequence = You are not my sheep.
Proof of the above = Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

You are not able to hear my word.
You do not believe because you are not my sheep
My sheep hear my voice, therefore they must already be His sheep.

 

[Whatever]

Jesus died for all, but not all are interested in serving Him.
Serving Him is necessary for salvation.
Jesus is the door, but we have to walk through it to profit from it.

And people only become interested and walk through the door when they are born again.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

And people only become interested and walk through the door when they are born again.

Maybe you reformed people can help me understand your theology better...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

This verse clearly says that God has chosen to save those who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In other words, God takes pleasure in saving those who believe.

Does reformed theology include this concept?

 

[Whatever]

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)
This verse clearly says that God has chosen to save those who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In other words, God takes pleasure in saving those who believe.

It is simply saying that men look at all kinds of spectacular things. They think that God saving people ought to be done in some spectacular way.

1Co 1:22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

God takes pleasure in saving those who believe. But that is not every autonomous person who by an act of their free will decides to believe.

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake . . .

You guys have this idea that God created the whole world just for the heck of it, and now He is hoping and wishing that all of these people get saved.

Heb_2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This is telling God's plan. That is bringing many sons to glory. Not saving everybody, but saving a remnant of mankind. It's all through the Bible if you can see it.

Isaiah 1:9
Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.

Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness

Isaiah 37:31 The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward. 32 For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”’

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

God takes pleasure in saving those who believe.

Thank you for the answer.

But that is not every autonomous person who by an act of their free will decides to believe.

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake . . .

I take from this that your doctrine is that God must grant to a person the ability to believe before he can excercise that ability and that once granted he has no ability to refuse to believe. And your doctrine also includes the converse, i.e., that those who are not granted the ability to believe cannot believe and will never believe. Right?

Doesn't this doctrine make 1 Corinthians 1:21 a bit ambiguous? In other words, if God does not choose to save people on the basis of their belief in the gospel, but instead chooses who will believe the gospel (and saves them as a result of His choice), why does it say it pleases Him to save those who believe?

And why isn't the order of salvation clear in 1 Corinthians 1:21? The gospel of Christ dying on the cross is preached, some who hear the gospel believe the gospel, and it gives Him pleasure to save those who believe in His son.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Scripture isn't written for God to understand, but for us linear finite creatures to understand.

Believe in Jesus, then you are saved; Salvation follows belief, linear events.

What you say is absurd:

"All who BECOME Christians" were already Christians?


Typical. Arminian refuses to believe Coins have two sides, heads and tails. He can only see the side with a tail while the Calvinist only sees the side with a head. So both agree its round, but that's it.

Sherlock Holmes would immediately realize both are reporting what they see, so you put both together and you have "a coin has two sides, head and tail.

Scripture clearly says God predestined the Elect to salvation. Scripture just as clearly says "whosoever believes" (elect or not) will be saved. God is an equal opportunity saviour.

No sinner can EVER be saved without first REPENTANCE and FAITH. period.

Election to salvation is RANK HERESY

 

[SolaScriptura]

Don't see that from the passage.

John 5:24 “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life . . .

Already has eternal life.

You say: Note here, Jesus is very clear that these Jews had the ABILITY to not only HEAR His voice, but to also OBEY His voice so that they could be saved!

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

You say that Jesus is saying that they had the ability to hear. In verse 43 He says they are not able.

Again:
Joh 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Again, cause and effect. You just brushed it off as "straw man arguments."

Effect = Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result = You do not believe.
Cause = The producer of an effect, result, or consequence = You are not my sheep.
Proof of the above = Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

You are not able to hear my word.
You do not believe because you are not my sheep
My sheep hear my voice, therefore they must already be His sheep.

You are twisting the words of Jesus in John chapter 5, where it is abundantly clear that Jesus offered salvation to the very Jews who wanted to murder Him, and they REFUSED

 

[Whatever]

You are twisting the words of Jesus in John chapter 5, where it is abundantly clear that Jesus offered salvation to the very Jews who wanted to murder Him, and they REFUSED

But I don't take passages by themselves to make a theology. Yes they refused. But why?

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

They couldn't accept because they were not His sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Yes they refused that is clear. But Jesus tells us why they refused. They were not His sheep. The Father had not drawn them.

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM."

You seem to be unwilling to let the whole Scripture inform you of what is going on.

 

[Whatever]

Doesn't this doctrine make 1 Corinthians 1:21 a bit ambiguous?

Not if you don't read a lot of free willism into it.
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

What he is saying here is that God chose the method of preaching to save His elect. This pleases God.
We are born sinners, children of wrath.
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

While we were still dead in trespasses, He made us alive (by regeneration) and then the foolishness of preaching was not foolish anymore and we accepted it.

 

[Whatever]

No sinner can EVER be saved without first REPENTANCE and FAITH. period.

Election to salvation is RANK HERESY

To free willers maybe.

2Thess_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Election is to salvation, but it is through the means of sanctification by the Spirit (regeneration) and belief (repentance and faith) in the truth.

You are thinking of the caricature people give of Calvinism as God electing Joe Blow and Joe Blow can live like the Devil and still go to Heaven.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And people only become interested and walk through the door when they are born again.

Too much value placed in time lines is sometimes counter productive.

 

[SolaScriptura]

But I don't take passages by themselves to make a theology. Yes they refused. But why?

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

They couldn't accept because they were not His sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Yes they refused that is clear. But Jesus tells us why they refused. They were not His sheep. The Father had not drawn them.

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM."

You seem to be unwilling to let the whole Scripture inform you of what is going on.

so it is VERY CLEAR, that you DON'T have any answer to what Jesus Himself says in John chapter 5?

You say that those who are not Jesus' sheep, cannot hear because they are not His sheep?

Really? then WHY would Jesus even say what He does in John 5:25, addressed clearly to those who wanted Him dead. Listen to what Jesus says here

" Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live"

ALL the spiritual dead will indeed hear the Voice of Jesus Christ, but, only those who really hear, that is, to ACCEPT Him as their Saviour and Lord, will live

This is made clear from verses 39 and 40, where Jesus again says, the very Scriptures that you Jews are looking at for eternal life, are those that testify about Me as the ONLY Saviour and Messiah. Yet, it is YOU Jews who REFUSE to come to Me for this eternal life

Do you suppose that IF, as you say, that Jesus only Died for "the elect", or "sheep", that He would have addressed these Jews using the language that He does? Or, maybe Jesus did not fully understand what He was saying?

A person ONLY becomes a "sheep", AFTER they are saved, and NOT before this time! It is only AFTER a sinner is born-again that they are part of the "elect", and NOT before!

The FACT that John 3:16-18 says that God loves the entire human race, and those who from this human race were to accept Jesus as their Saviour, will indeed be saved. But those from this same human race who refused to believe, will be damned. This is what the Gospel Message is!

You cannot even deal with the FACT, as I have clearly shown in the OP, that Jesus Himself said to ALL at the Lord's Supper, where Luke informs us, that Judas was present, and took the Wine and Bread, that He was going to the Cross to shed His Blood for them ALL? Even John Calvin, commenting on the words of Jesus in Mark chapter 14, which is the Lord's Supper, where in verse 24 we read, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them". We would have here expected Calvin to say that the word "many", is here used only for "the elect". However, he is very clear in what he writes, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race", which Calvin says is addressed to all His Disciples, which includes Judas, as he was very much there!

This FACT about Jesus Dying also for Judas, the very person who would betray Him, with the gravest sin, is more than enough to DESTROY from the Bible, ANY "limit" to the extent of the Death of Jesus Christ!. and YET, those like you will continue to reject this, in order to keep on pushing against what the Bible says, that Jesus only died for "part" of the human race!

2 Peter 2:1, is clear that Jesus Christ Died for those, like Judas, who will NOT be in heaven

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

These CHOOSE to DENY the FACT that Jesus Christ had BOUGHT, that is, Died for them on the cross! This same Greek word ἀγοράζω, is used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23; Revelation 5:9, etc, which is for the Blood of Jesus Christ being shed for salvation!

These are FACTS, not your fancy handling of the Word of God for your "theology"!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Not if you don't read a lot of free willism into it.

What is free willism?

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

What he is saying here is that God chose the method of preaching to save His elect. This pleases God.

This is like saying that God set up some dominoes to knock down a target. He creates all the conditions necessary for an elect one to be saved. Then when the time is right, he knocks down the first domino and watches as each subsequent domino falls. Then when the final one falls and hits the target, faith becomes a reality, it makes God happy, and He saves that person.

We are born sinners, children of wrath.
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

While we were still dead in trespasses, He made us alive (by regeneration) and then the foolishness of preaching was not foolish anymore and we accepted it.

This is deflection. We are discussing the thing that leads to salvation, not salvation itself.

And to my post (repeated below for convenience), I see you chose not to confirm or deny my summary of your doctrine in the first paragraph. Can you please tell me if I got it right or wrong?

I take from this that your doctrine is that God must grant to a person the ability to believe before he can excercise that ability and that once granted he has no ability to refuse to believe. And your doctrine also includes the converse, i.e., that those who are not granted the ability to believe cannot believe and will never believe. Right?

Doesn't this doctrine make 1 Corinthians 1:21 a bit ambiguous? In other words, if God does not choose to save people on the basis of their belief in the gospel, but instead chooses who will believe the gospel (and saves them as a result of His choice), why does it say it pleases Him to save those who believe?

And why isn't the order of salvation clear in 1 Corinthians 1:21? The gospel of Christ dying on the cross is preached, some who hear the gospel believe the gospel, and it gives Him pleasure to save those who believe in His son.

And you didn't answer the question in the final paragraph either. Please succinctly say how salvation/regeneration/spiritual life can preceed faith if God chooses to save those who believe.

 

[Whatever]

You say that those who are not Jesus' sheep, cannot hear because they are not His sheep?

I say? That is what Jesus says.

so it is VERY CLEAR, that you DON'T have any answer to what Jesus Himself says in John chapter 5?

John chapter 5 is 47 verses long. Jesus says a lot of things. I see no where see Jesus say "if you accept me by an act of your free will you will be saved."
I do see Him ask a rhetorical question: John 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
The answer is "they can't."

Really? then WHY would Jesus even say what He does in John 5:25, addressed clearly to those who wanted Him dead. Listen to what Jesus says here

" Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live"

ALL the spiritual dead will indeed hear the Voice of Jesus Christ, but, only those who really hear, that is, to ACCEPT Him as their Saviour and Lord, will live

You added the word "all" that is not implied. "when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." Again it is clear that not all the dead are implied.

Do you suppose that IF, as you say, that Jesus only Died for "the elect", or "sheep", that He would have addressed these Jews using the language that He does? Or, maybe Jesus did not fully understand what He was saying?

I suppose you are not listening to Jesus' own words to fit your own humanistic ideas.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:26 . . . you are not of My sheep . . .

Yes, Jesus shed His blood for many. I see nothing in there to include Judas. Earlier Jesus said:
John 13:18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS BREAD WITH ME HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'
Again:
John 13:10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean."
Again:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

You still insist that Judas was included in the "many?"

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

I see these "false prophets" teaching "destructive heresies" as false Christians claiming that the Lord had bought them, but they are actually denying Him.
Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

These CHOOSE to DENY the FACT that Jesus Christ had BOUGHT, that is, Died for them on the cross!

The passage is saying that they denied Him, not what He had done.