Who made God?

[Randy]

That's not what I asked.
I asked: "So, are you saying that, since you have become a Christian, you have not sinned even once?"

Then please explain the verses I quoted you from John.
Here they are again:
1Jo 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
It is possible and necessary that a Christian cease to live as he used to live when sin was his normal way of life. A believer is required to leave that life behind.
But to expect a believer who is still breathing air and pumping blood to never sin in the slightest manner was not what John was talking about.

I am not the one condemning the RCC. That is you.

I have always loved the Lord and believed in Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I have NOT always been the way I am now. I don't believe I received the Spirit of Christ in me as a infant (when I was baptized). As an adult I asked for myself and received the Fathers promise and made a commitment (pledging a good conscience towards God) to live like a believer. From that point forward (decades ago) I have kept 9 of the 10 commandments and I am not sexual immoral. I quite comfortable in my salvation. So there should be some point of repentance like Zacchaeus and a change of heart. But again my hope is in the righteousness credited to me by faith. The scripture you quote doesn't mean one who is washed, sanctified and justified has to keep asking forgiveness or they are a liar. Unless one does continue to sin (breaking any of the 9 commandments or being sexual immoral) then, to me, they are still a slave to sin. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. I think in any church there are some bad apples though they may be hidden for awhile. I think the catholic church has many kind and compassionate people who are faithful to Jesus. True believers. I don't condemn the people even if I dislike some of what I see with the "system" (leadership). The Vatican is their own independent city state. In essence a sovereign country.

Randy

 

[Randy]

OK, so you have no idea what the reference to the "primitive" church meant.

Have you ever read: Jas 2:20-24?
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Or maybe you have stumbled across the following words of Jesus in you study:
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (John 5:28-29 NKJV)

I'm sure you've read what Paul has to say about salvation by grace through faith.
Do you understand what Paul was talking about in the following passage?
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 2:6-10 NKJV)

So, don't call Jesus your LORD unless you do what He commands. (Luk 6:46)

Mary had other children. And "if" God was formed it could NOT have been done by any other living being. (smile)

 

[Jim Parker]

I have always loved the Lord and believed in Jesus as far back as my memory goes.

That doesn't answer the question you were asked.

I don't believe I received the Spirit of Christ in me as a infant (when I was baptized).

Nobody asked.

From that point forward (decades ago) I have kept 9 of the 10 commandments and I am not sexual immoral.

Really?? “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."? (Exo 20:1) Like maybe your Catholic neighbor???
But, that is not an answer to the question you were asked but which you keep dodging.

I quite comfortable in my salvation.

That's nice. But, that is not an answer to the question you were asked.

The scripture you quote doesn't mean one who is washed, sanctified and justified has to keep asking forgiveness or they are a liar.

No one said it did.
It says that if anyone says the doesn't sin he is a liar but that when he does sin, if he will confess, God forgives and cleanses from all impurity.

Unless one does continue to sin (breaking any of the 9 commandments or being sexual immoral) then, to me, they are still a slave to sin.

That's not what scripture says. To not sin is more than the 10 commandments minus keep the Sabbath. I suggest you read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew. (For starters)

I don't condemn the people even if I dislike some of what I see with the "system"

But you do condemn what you imagine that system s and thereby condemn the people who submit to that "system" even though scripture states that we are to: "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account." (Heb 13:17)

The Vatican is their own independent city state. In essence a sovereign country.

That's right. So what? It's about 110 acres with a population of around 1000. whoopie. Who cares?
Why is it so important to you to have something bad to say about the RCC?

 

[Jim Parker]

Mary had other children.

In your uninformed opinion.

And "if" God was formed it could NOT have been done by any other living being.

Were you attempting to make a point?

(smile)

Here's a great smile:

Looks like a pose for a year book doesn't it?
"Vote for me!"

 

[Nathan]

Ok. You totally missed what I said.

I never said she never sinned.
And it is not "part of the same idea."
Please don't make up crap just to mock people you don't agree with.

OH. Do you have the incarnate Son of God in your womb right now?
That's a red Herring.

So Mary DIDN'T bear the Son of God?
That's your story??

Are you a Jew under the Law of Moses?
Another Red Herring.

So it couldn't have been common knowledge because Nathan says so.
Is everything that the apostles taught to be found in the NT?
Paul says "no."
2TH 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

IF you cannot respond to the beliefs of other Christians in a respectful manner I'd prefer you did not respond to me at all. I do not appreciate you mockery and adolescent cheap shots.

It was never meant as a cheap shot. I was referencing what I have read about the orthodox faith. I do know that RCC believes Mary was sinless.

I do believe Mary was the mother of Jesus. I simply do not hold to her being the "ark" of the new covenant. There is no basis for that than mere human reasoning. If that's what you want to believe that's fine.

There is great significance as far as the Ark of God is concerned. Much was written about it. I do not think that it would be neglected to have been told - written down - that Mary was considered the same.

I think the issue runs deeper than most will let on. I've never considered it before. I'm simply working through why the belief is held by some.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have kept 9 of the 10 commandments and I am not sexual immoral.

This just came to me.
So, not to judge or try to put you down or offend or anything like that;
Consider:
Luke 18:10-14
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Just read that a couple of times and let it percolate in prayer a bit and see what you get.
OK?

peace

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I do know that RCC believes Mary was sinless.

It has nothing to do with perpetual virginity.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception by which Mary was given a special grace to avoid sin is a RC doctrine from Vatican 1 in the 1870's. IMO, it actually detracts from her. If she was exempt from succumbing to temptation than she was not fully human. Only Christ was fully human yet without sin.
But that's a different topic.

I simply do not hold to her being the "ark" of the new covenant. There is no basis for that than mere human reasoning.

She bore God the Logos made from her flesh by the Holy Spirit. She bore Christ Who is the the body and blood of the new covenant.
I don't see how you fail to connect the dots.

I do not think that it would be neglected to have been told - written down - that Mary was considered the same.

She is better than the same as Christ has given us a better covenant than the one given to Moses. That first one was carried in a wooden ark overlaid with gold. The new one is carried in the womb of Mary.
The New Testament perfects the Old, and whereas the old Ark of the Covenant had been lost, God provided a new and more perfect one in Mary who is "blessed among women". The Ark moves from being a human artifact of wood and gold, to a the highest honored human creature. The presence of God is perfected insofar as the Second Person of the Trinity becomes Incarnate, and his mission is the forgiveness of all mankind, something the first covenant carried in the wooden ark could not do.

I think the issue runs deeper than most will let on.

I think it runs about as deep as, "That's one of them dang KATH-lik doctrines" and not a micron deeper.

 

[Randy]

In your uninformed opinion.

Were you attempting to make a point?

Yes - was making a point.
I thought you were provided scripture which named Jesus's brothers and unnamed sisters. Who told you otherwise?


No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

So its going to come down to how you define sin. Thats why I named 9 of the 10 commandments and abstain form sexual immorality. However my righteousness was credited to me by faith in Christ Jesus not works.


Jesus to the women at the well=>
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

asked is not works. Just like the one on the cross who asked. It does however require faith to ask.


By the way I don't hold to apostolic succession and if your pope claims to be the vicar of Christ then I would state he is very mistaken. He has no authority over protestants or anyone except those who work for him as a employee or those who dwell in his city state.

1. apostolic succession
   (in Christian thought) the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, taught by the Roman Catholic Church but denied by most Protestants.

Randy

 

[Randy]

This just came to me.
So, not to judge or try to put you down or offend or anything like that;
Consider:
Luke 18:10-14
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Just read that a couple of times and let it percolate in prayer a bit and see what you get.
OK?

peace

iakov the fool

Context - you asked if I sinned. (a sinner) I have gone to the one who has authority to take away all sin by faith. I am not discarding the Lord or repentance as the text shows. I don't exalt myself. Make a righteous judgment. Here's my judgment. I think you are a true believer but neither you or I am perfect nor the priests and cardinals or pope.

I also doubt most catholics go to confession. They must feel comfortable in their salvation. Or perhaps if they felt a need they would pray directly to Jesus. Its a relationship -Christ in Us. And I don't state its static.

I confess my imperfection.
Once a relative asked if they could live with me. The person was worth 100's of thousands of dollars so it wasn't like they were on the street. They felt alone. But knowing that relative I declined. I felt guilty later. I justified myself to the Lord "its not my fault". Later when I asked for something I felt the presence of the Spirit and the words in mind were quite clear "its not my fault". Ouch. The Lord keeps me straight. But it is as I state, I keep the commandments and I am not sexual immoral. And I love Jesus.


Randy

 

[Papa Zoom]

Context - you asked if I sinned. (a sinner) I have gone to the one who has authority to take away all sin by faith. I am not discarding the Lord or repentance as the text shows. I don't exalt myself. Make a righteous judgment. Here's my judgment. I think you are a true believer but neither you or I am perfect nor the priests and cardinals or pope.

I also doubt most catholics go to confession. They must feel comfortable in their salvation. Or perhaps if they felt a need they would pray directly to Jesus. Its a relationship -Christ in Us. And I don't state its static.

I confess my imperfection.
Once a relative asked if they could live with me. The person was worth 100's of thousands of dollars so it wasn't like they were on the street. They felt alone. But knowing that relative I declined. I felt guilty later. I justified myself to the Lord "its not my fault". Later when I asked for something I felt the presence of the Spirit and the words in mind were quite clear "its not my fault". Ouch. The Lord keeps me straight. But it is as I state, I keep the commandments and I am not sexual immoral. And I love Jesus.


Randy

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

So right there you have confessed a sin you committed. Listen, you do sin. Because you, like all of us, are broken. This side of glory you will never reach sinless perfection. You continue to grow in Christ, but we still struggle with life. And within that struggle, we fall short of God's glory (which is sin). It's my view however that Christians are not sinners. They are saints. Made whole by the grace of God. We wear the righteousness of Christ which means that when God sees us, he sees Christ's sinless perfection. We are holy saints of God.

David had a heart after God. He is raised up as one after God's own heart. But yet he was a murderer, sexually immoral, and a liar. How can that be? He repented when his sin confronted him.

When you quote in I John 3: you leave out v8. It's not those who sin who are not born of God. That would be an impossibility for everyone on this planet, including you and me. It's those that continue to practice sin. That means those who continue to sin habitually and live in the same way as they did before being "saved."

8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.…

It can't mean you do this perfectly. No one can. But you can (and should) practice righteousness. Each day, by renewing one's mind, and focusing on Jesus, can you practice life the way God intended. It's intentional. Salvation is like a garden. It must be tended properly for the fruit of the garden to grow. This is our sanctification. We grow in Christ but we never fully arrived at perfection this side of death.

 

[Gregg T]

She was the one human vessel of all creation consecrated to be the Throne of God With Us and the Ark of the New Covenant.

So, you assume that, after Jesus was born, that Joseph figured it would be OK to have sex with the Ark of the New Covenant; for him to sexually enter God's Holy of Holies and to make unclean that which had been the very Throne of God.

Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant! (Or the throne of God); a heretical teaching from a heretical tradition that can only be found outside of Scripture.

Jesus Christ is the Ark of the Covenant, in whom:

- and upon Whom the Atonement was made
- in Whom was the Law and Testament
- in Whom was the manna
- in Whom was almond rod, identifying the Priest
- Whose flesh was as pure gold
- in and above Whom God was manifested to Israel
- Who is surrounded by cherubim
- Who sits on the one throne

Psa 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

 

[Jim Parker]

I thought you were provided scripture which named Jesus's brothers and unnamed sisters.

I thought you were provided the information that the word "brother" or "sister" in that culture at that time could refer to any relative in the tribe.

So its going to come down to how you define sin. Thats why I named 9 of the 10 commandments and abstain form sexual immorality.

And that's why I sent you that parable about the pharisee and the publican.
Here's a definition of sin: Jas 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

However my righteousness was credited to me by faith in Christ Jesus not works.

Really???
Jas 2:20-24 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

When you are judged by Christ, He will judge you by your works.

Mat 25:31-36 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

Mat 25:41-43; 46 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So the righteous and the condemned will be judged according to what they did or did not do.
Notice Jesus said absolutely nothing about having faith.

Jesus also said at John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.

And Jesus said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And He said at John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

So you believe. Great! So do the demons.

Here's some input from Paul:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"Walk in them" means to make doing good works our manner of life. That's what God created us to do.

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

It seems to me that what you say about good works is not in harmony with what Jesus and Paul said and that's a scary place to be.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

By the way I don't hold to apostolic succession

Not my problem

if your pope

I don't have a pope

He has no authority over protestants

No kidding

apostolic succession
(in Christian thought) the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, taught by the Roman Catholic Church but denied by most Protestants.

Yeah.
That's a RC definition.
And of course it's "denied by most Protestants. "
So what?

 

[Jim Parker]

Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant! (Or the throne of God); a heretical teaching from a heretical tradition that can only be found outside of Scripture.

Jesus Christ is the Ark of the Covenant, in whom:

- and upon Whom the Atonement was made
- in Whom was the Law and Testament
- in Whom was the manna
- in Whom was almond rod, identifying the Priest
- Whose flesh was as pure gold
- in and above Whom God was manifested to Israel
- Who is surrounded by cherubim
- Who sits on the one throne

Psa 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Jesus is what was IN the Ark.
Almighty God.

 

[Jim Parker]

Context - you asked if I sinned. (a sinner) I have gone to the one who has authority to take away all sin by faith. I am not discarding the Lord or repentance as the text shows. I don't exalt myself. Make a righteous judgment. Here's my judgment. I think you are a true believer but neither you or I am perfect nor the priests and cardinals or pope.

If you are not perfect then you still sin.
And what is it with you and the Catholic Church?
Can you make it through a single day without expressing your hatred for your brothers and sisters in the RCC?
Have you ever read the following:
1Jo 3:15 Any one who hates his brother is a murderer,
and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar;
for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Mat 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged.
For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;
and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

I also doubt most catholics go to confession. They must feel comfortable in their salvation. Or perhaps if they felt a need they would pray directly to Jesus. Its a relationship -Christ in Us. And I don't state its static.

That is pure unadulterated bilge, slander and hatred.
You have just slandered people about whom you know exactly NOTHING.
And, just in case you were unaware, that is one of the 9 commandments you claim to keep.
Exo 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:20 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Mat 19:17b-18
"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
Catholics are your neighbors. Maybe YOU should go to confession.

I confess my imperfection.

And then you continue on in it claiming that you keep the commandments! And you don't see the contradiction!!!

But it is as I state, I keep the commandments and I am not sexual immoral. And I love Jesus.

Do you?
You just said you were imperfect. Either you keep the commandments (are perfect) or you do not (are imperfect.)
Which is it?

Do you love your RCC neighbors?
How about the pope? Do you love him too?
Do you pray for him?
Mat 22:37-40 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The pope is your neighbor, bubba. (That's "low country" for "brother.")

iakov the fool

 

[Randy]

If you are not perfect then you still sin.
And what is it with you and the Catholic Church?
Can you make it through a single day without expressing your hatred for your brothers and sisters in the RCC?
Have you ever read the following:
1Jo 3:15 Any one who hates his brother is a murderer,
and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar;
for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Mat 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged.
For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;
and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.


That is pure unadulterated bilge, slander and hatred.
You have just slandered people about whom you know exactly NOTHING.
And, just in case you were unaware, that is one of the 9 commandments you claim to keep.
Exo 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:20 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Mat 19:17b-18
"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
Catholics are your neighbors. Maybe YOU should go to confession.

And then you continue on in it claiming that you keep the commandments! And you don't see the contradiction!!!

I see quite well. (smile)
You can now post your selfie smile.

Mary had other children. The pope is not the vicar of christ. I believe there are many kind and compassionate catholics who love Jesus. Not sure about you.

Randy

 

[Randy]

One article on the web. I am not catholic but I see no reason why other catholics would lie about confession.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2005/11/the_sin_box.html

 

[reba]

This site has banned the discussion of RCC except in very limited areas.. The above posts are an example of why it has been banned,,, this thread is closed for some clean-up

Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.