Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

[Terraphim]

Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

The Two Witnesses.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

In the above document, I am taking the position that the two witnesses are two groups of people who exist during the Times of the Gentiles. Their testimony bears witness to God according to two different methods of salvation, and according to two different manifestations. The two covenant methods of salvation are according to Law, and according to Grace. The two different personal manifestations are according to a veiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory, and according to an unveiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory. This perspective is an effort towards eliminating the false doctrine of replacement theology, and towards an integration of Godly community.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus Chris is the faithful and true witness, He and the father are one,
the Father bears witness as does the Son.

Let every wore be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, the Spirit bears witness because the Spirit is truth. there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost, these three are one. There are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit and the water and the blood, these three agree in one. ( Jesus Christ the Word and Spirit that came by water and blood.)

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God ( the Father and the Son are the two witnesses) is greater, for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.





John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.




If anyone wants to know anything more from Revelation 11, I can show every detail.

 

[Terraphim]

gordon777 Thank you for your testimony. This is truly wonderful to me. You wrote:

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God ( the Father and the Son are the two witnesses) is greater, for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

What you have written makes much sense, but it is not exactly applicable to Revelation 11, as the explanation must take into account these verses:

Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
Rev 11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

So, there are three processes which must be taken into account. The two witnesses die, come back to life, and ascend to heaven. The Father and the Son cannot die, except for when Jesus used the power that He was given from the Father to lay down His physical life. Jesus then came back to life, and then ascended, true, but the Father did none of these things.

Further, in v8, we see that the "dead bodies [of the two witnesses] will lie" (future tense)
and then we see that "our Lord was crucified" (past tense).

So, we see in the first instance that the Father cannot be one of the two witnesses.
So also, we see in the second instance that the Son cannot be one of the two witnesses.

So, I continue to maintain that the two witness are two peoples who testify from their own perspective during (42 months/1260 days=3.5 years symbolic of) the times of the Gentiles. What they witness, and therefore testify of, is the spiritual coming of the Son in Glory. To the first witness (of two groups) He appears Veiled in persona, and to the second witness He appears Manifest as the express[ed] image of Father. It is in this manner that Christians may understand how salvation comes to the faithful of all three main branches of the tree of life.

Thank you, and as always; Be blessed, Be well.

 

[gordon777]

So, there are three processes which must be taken into account. The two witnesses die, come back to life, and ascend to heaven. The Father and the Son cannot die, except for when Jesus used the power that He was given from the Father to lay down His physical life. Jesus then came back to life, and then ascended, true, but the Father did none of these things.

Further, in v8, we see that the "dead bodies [of the two witnesses] will lie" (future tense)
and then we see that "our Lord was crucified" (past tense).

So, we see in the first instance that the Father cannot be one of the two witnesses.
So also, we see in the second instance that the Son cannot be one of the two witnesses.

That is right, the Son died and came back to life and ascended. The father did all of those things, as we perceive it is God that laid down His life for us.



1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.






When the two witnesses shall have finished their testimony ( the Father and the Son witnessed against Israel who hated both the Father and the Son. John 15:22-24.) the beast kills them ( the hour of darkness came to kill the prince of life. Luke 22:53. Acts 3:15.)

There dead bodies shall lie in Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified ( this is a retelling of what occurred to our Lord.)





John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.


Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.







What are the two witnesses, and afterwards, what is that 1260 days ?



Zechariah 4, shows, the golden candlestick and a bowl upon it and seven lamps and seven pipes, and two olive trees by it.

These two olive branches who through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves, are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord, of the whole earth. ( God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power, anointing Christ with the oil of gladness above His fellows. Acts 10:38.)







Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.




Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.






We know that the hour of darkness and the prince of this world came to Jesus to kill Him, but that this was the judgement of this world ( John 12;31)

The chief priests, lawyers, scribes, Pharisees, Sedducees were all happy to have killed Christ, as the heathen raged against the Lord and against His anointed ( Acts 4;25-27.)

We also know that Jesus is the prophet all Israel would be destroyed, if they did not hear Him ( Acts 3:23.)

We know that Jesus was dead for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, and that after three days we shall live in the sight of God as He revives us. ( Matthew 12:40.)

We know there was a great earthquake as Jesus ascended also, and they who witnessed it feared greatly saying truly this was the Son of God. ( giving glory to God through Jesus Christ, and the seven thousand are the remnant according to the election of grace. 1 Peter 4:11.)







Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.






1260 days, are three and a half years, ( God has appointed each day for a year.). and are half ,of the three and a half days of the two witnesses prophecy to make one week. )

Christ came to earth for His testimony for three and a half years, and then after ( the beast) killed Him, was dead three day and nights in the earth, then rose again. ( ascended)

Daniel shows it was a week that Jesus confirmed the covenant with many, ( three and a half days giving the testimony, until killed, then three days dead, until He lived again.) and in the middle of the week ( after the testimony and when the beast killed) that caused the sacrifice of the first covenant to cease, as the second was established.






Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

 

[gordon777]

All scripture is what testifies of Christ.


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[gordon777]

If we want to know what the golden oil that is emptied out of the two olive trees, it is firstly the blood that Christ shed for us, Jesus Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of man ( hence two witnesses, in heaven and on earth) and he shed His blood for us ( as the Son of man) so He can shed the love of God into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us ( as the Son of God then in Heaven.) and that is why there is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. ( the Son of God.)




Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.



1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.






The Son of God took on the seed of Abraham, made like His brothers ( in the flesh) to be a merciful and faithful High Priest, to make reconciliation for us to God ( He is the Son of God, and Son of man, two witnesses for this purpose, and He is without father, without beginning of days nor end of life as He abides for ever.)




Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

 

[gordon777]

If anyone wants to know more, I can give every detail of Revelation 11, and of all things.

 

[Terraphim]

Thank you for your generous response. This gives me much to further contemplate. This also gives me much to respond to. I don't think that I can presently give you and entirely adequate response, as the number and complexity of things which would have to be properly addressed are rather substantial. I will try to do at least some.

You began this response with;

That is right, the Son died and came back to life and ascended. The father did all of those things, as we perceive it is God that laid down His life for us.

but then concluded with this:

The Son of God took on the seed of Abraham, made like His brothers ( in the flesh) to be a merciful and faithful High Priest, to make reconciliation for us to God ( He is the Son of God, and Son of man, two witnesses for this purpose, and He is without father, without beginning of days nor end of life as He abides for ever.)

As to the first quote, I can say that there is merit in the view that, as the Father and Son are one in the Trinity, then the activity of the Son also applies to the Father, though it was not explicitly so on earth. Still, that is not what the two witnesses are. In the second quote, you appear to have taken the tack that the Son alone is the two witnesses, based on the principle of the hypostatic union, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Very well, you may consider that both views apply, though it is not a comfortable fit.

I would like to briefly comment as an aside that the two terms "Son of God" and "Son of man" require some examination. The term "Son of God" as applied to Jesus would refer to His eternal estate, which is essentially spiritual, though He was for a short time also the Word made flesh. The term "Son of man" should always be preceded by an identifying article of "the" or "a", to distinguish between the Lord and a son of the resurrection, a Terraphim. Jesus was not the Son of man according to the flesh, as He was begotten of the Holy Spirit, and not of a man. So, the term "the Son of man" is to be understood as "the [only begotten] Son of [God in the form of] man". Likewise, the term "a son of man" is to be understood as "a son of [God in] man".

Next, I find it to be very important to bring clarity to this quote;

When the two witnesses shall have finished their testimony ( the Father and the Son witnessed against Israel who hated both the Father and the Son. John 15:22-24.)

You here used the term "Israel" in a very general manner, which is not supported by scripture.
Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
What I am saying is that there were Jews at that time who were not a part of "the people" who chose to crucify the Lord. Gamaliel is one such example;
Act 5:34 Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while...
Act 5:38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God."

Next, the scripture you used here is not directed towards Israel, but towards the world, as the preceding context shows.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Next, this is very important;

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is the first NT beast. The 4 OT beasts were identified in scripture as being the first four empires which had dominion over the holy people. The 2 NT beasts are also empires which have dominion over the holy peoples, but are not explicitly identified in scripture, though they are known to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. So, the first NT beast did not exist at the time of the crucifixion, and therefore, neither Jesus nor Jehovah are the two witnesses.

 

[Terraphim]

Next, concerning Zechariah 4;

These two olive branches who through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves, are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord, of the whole earth.

Yes, thank you, this is the scriptural origin of the two witnesses, though there was only one lamp stand, but it was fed oil from two sources. Here Zechariah spoke of Zerubbabel in Messianic terms, which happens to other people in other places in scripture, as well Isa22:20-25 / Dan12:1-3. The important thing to consider here is the "two anointed ones". Yes, they are the two witnesses, and we are here given this additional information, that they are anointed.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

You were quite right to have quoted this here. The Lord Jesus is the anointed one, the Messiah. Next, notice "above thy fellows", or companions. Those who become believers in Jesus are also anointed. This is the first "first work" of four. It is often neglected by established religion, as some have thought to thwart them in the gate.
Mat_23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
This is a useless effort, as the rite of anointing is not required, and may be self administered with oil marking a cross on the forehead. So, again, the two witnesses are the anointed, who partake of the anointing of the Lord Jesus, whether explicitly or not.

Next;

We also know that Jesus is the prophet all Israel would be destroyed, if they did not hear Him ( Acts 3:23.)

Act 3:23 AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERY SOUL WHO WILL NOT HEAR THAT PROPHET SHALL BE UTTERLY DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.'
Is paraphrased from;
Deu 18:19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
Again, this is not directed towards all Israel, but towards all those who would not accord authority to Jesus.

Next;

We know there was a great earthquake as Jesus ascended also, and they who witnessed it feared greatly saying truly this was the Son of God. ( giving glory to God through Jesus Christ, and the seven thousand are the remnant according to the election of grace. 1 Peter 4:11.)

These things are not the same, neither the crucifixion earthquake nor the 7,000 faithful from Isaiah and Rom11:4 are the same as the events which follow the two witnesses.

Next;

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

This is a very important scripture, and it pertains, but not in a manner which has been discussed yet in this thread. Here we have a presentation of Heavenly Days.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
In addition to the prophetic method of equating a day to a year, there is this equation of one day to a thousand years. Every believer's soul is given a thousand year Day in which to ascend to the next heavenly course, or else descend. For example, the course of the foundation of the world is here spoken of;
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, ...
The course of the foundation of the world is the upper level of hell, which is the course from which souls come, of all who become new believers, to the course of the foundation of the earth. This is the process of the spiritual ascension. For each course, or foundation, a believer is given a thousand years to ascend, or else the believer must descend. It usually takes much less time to ascend through the lower courses, that is, to qualify and then to be allowed by grace to ascend. Hosea here speaks of three Days, but that is not the total count of Days (for the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body, in the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven). This is how to understand this scripture, by starting at v1, the course preceding salvation, then by looking separately at the two parts of v2. Horizontally instead of vertically, it's numbered this way this way more clearly: l 1 l 2 l 1 l 2 l 3 l 4 l, but it's numbered this way in the scripture: l 0 l 1 l 2 l 1 l 2 l 3 l. The first part, "After two days He will revive us:", speaks of two Days which are needed to ascend through two courses, from the upper course of hell that's the foundation of the world through the foundation of the earth. So, one moves from the generation of the wicked through the generation of the Faithful, to the generation of the Called. The Faithful are made clean, and the Called are quickened, as the term "revive us" indicates. The next part of v2 reads, "in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.". Starting now from where we left off, "after two days", we count from the end of Day two. So, we have from the first example; Days 2, 3, and 4, which correspond to the generations after the Faithful (clean); the Called (quick), the Chosen (elect), and the Accepted (wed). The begining of the concurrent resurrection marks the begining of the third Day, that is, the fourth Day from the first example.

Next;

Daniel shows it was a week that Jesus confirmed the covenant with many, ( three and a half days giving the testimony, until killed, then three days dead, until He lived again.) and in the middle of the week ( after the testimony and when the beast killed) that caused the sacrifice of the first covenant to cease, as the second was established.

This is a fairly common theological error. I'm not going to straighten this out right now, as I intend to start a new thread to deal with this.

Next;

I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Yes, Ezek4:6 establishes this method of interpretation.

Next;

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
This is not a replacement of the first covenant with the second. This is the establishment of the actual method of propitiation which was only foreshadowed by the ceremonial law, which became obsolete. To those who have faith in the I AM THAT I AM, salvation by grace through faith is true, whether the source of it is know or unknown, Veiled or Manifest.
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Next;

If we want to know what the golden oil that is emptied out of the two olive trees, it is firstly the blood that Christ shed for us

Rather:
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
One who is walking the wrong way is also facing the wrong way, like Lot's wife. One who walks the wrong way in the circle of justice will grow ever closer to seeing the face of the Father, unto perdition. Until then one is as a broken-off branch which is seasoning in the ever increasing heat. For an olive branch, it gives off oil as it seasons, metaphorically speaking. That is the golden oil, which is the light of the life of men.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

 

[Benadam]

Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

The Two Witnesses.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

In the above document, I am taking the position that the two witnesses are two groups of people who exist during the Times of the Gentiles. Their testimony bears witness to God according to two different methods of salvation, and according to two different manifestations. The two covenant methods of salvation are according to Law, and according to Grace. The two different personal manifestations are according to a veiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory, and according to an unveiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory. This perspective is an effort towards eliminating the false doctrine of replacement theology, and towards an integration of Godly community.

In Paradise the body doesn't die but can die. Is it possible that's where Elijah and Moses are and why they were visible at the Transfiguration?

 

[Gracethroughfaith]

Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

The Two Witnesses.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

In the above document, I am taking the position that the two witnesses are two groups of people who exist during the Times of the Gentiles. Their testimony bears witness to God according to two different methods of salvation, and according to two different manifestations. The two covenant methods of salvation are according to Law, and according to Grace. The two different personal manifestations are according to a veiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory, and according to an unveiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory. This perspective is an effort towards eliminating the false doctrine of replacement theology, and towards an integration of Godly community.

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

 

[hawkman]

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

I can see that . My thoughts are it will be Enoch and Elijah as the two witnesses .

Welcome to the forum Gracethroughfaith !

 

[Terraphim]

In Paradise the body doesn't die but can die. Is it possible that's where Elijah and Moses are and why they were visible at the Transfiguration?

2Co 12:1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul was here speaking of the three tertiary heavens; the heaven of the atmosphere, the heaven of outer space, and the heaven of the spirit realm that is the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven. The third tertiary heaven is composed of a 7 heaven (septum) system.
Rev_2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '
The third tertiary heaven is the spiritual heaven which is a heaven of heavens, of seven heavens, the primary septum. The regeneration of the second birth occurs throughout the first four courses of heavens, which are also the four primary foundations of the New Jerusalem. The begining of the fourth heaven is when the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body begins, and the fourth heaven is in the middle of the septum, in the midst.
The tree of life pertains particularly to the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body, which occurs over about 3.5 years, at the beginning of the middle course of the heavens, in the midst. So, Paradise is the seven heavens, and so Paradise is the septum. Therefore, when Jesus said to the converted thief on the neighboring cross;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
He did not move the comma to say;
"Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
So, we have defined Paradise.
Next, the spirit body doesn't die, but can die; true. Eternal security is false.
The spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected when they were incarnate, the same as everyone except Jesus. They continued to live as spirits after their physical bodies were left behind, as all do. But further, Elijah was translated 2Kin2:11, as was Enoch Gen5:24. Translation occurs when a spirit body ascends so close to God that the physical body can no longer endure, and spontaneous somatic combustion occurs.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
The presence of Moses indicates that he also translated. So, it is clear that Jesus left His Glory in heaven, such that it could not be seen in His physical body, except for this one time. The transfiguration was given such that we could understand the translation. When Jesus transfigured, it was translation, but He was the Word made flesh, so His flesh did not combust.
Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

My thoughts are it will be Enoch and Elijah as the two witnesses .

Thank you for your concise opinion. The two witnesses cannot be Moses, Elijah, or Enoch for the same reason that it cannot be the Father and Son;

The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is the first NT beast. The 4 OT beasts were identified in scripture as being the first four empires which had dominion over the holy people. The 2 NT beasts are also empires which have dominion over the holy peoples, but are not explicitly identified in scripture, though they are known to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. So, the first NT beast did not exist at the time of the crucifixion, and therefore, neither Jesus nor Jehovah are the two witnesses.

The first NT beast did not exist until after the dominion of the fourth OT beast concluded. The first OT beast was Babylon. The second and third were given in a vision subsequent to the vision of the four beasts;
Dan 8:20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
So, the forth OT beast was Rome. The fall of Rome was 476AD. So, the first NT beast had to be after 476AD.

There was Jesus, known or unknown.

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[Benadam]

Thank you for your concise opinion. The two witnesses cannot be Moses, Elijah, or Enoch for the same reason that it cannot be the Father and Son;

The first NT beast did not exist until after the dominion of the fourth OT beast concluded. The first OT beast was Babylon. The second and third were given in a vision subsequent to the vision of the four beasts;
Dan 8:20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
So, the forth OT beast was Rome. The fall of Rome was 476AD. So, the first NT beast had to be after 476AD.

There was Jesus, known or unknown.

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Paradise is a place of immortal life but not eternal life. Not Elijah, Enoch nor Moses were resurrected. They didn't experience death.

 

[gordon777]

The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is the first NT beast. The 4 OT beasts were identified in scripture as being the first four empires which had dominion over the holy people. The 2 NT beasts are also empires which have dominion over the holy peoples, but are not explicitly identified in scripture, though they are known to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. So, the first NT beast did not exist at the time of the crucifixion, and therefore, neither Jesus nor Jehovah are the two witnesses.

Israel hated Christ as they betrayed and murdered Him. It is not a confused issue, ( the Gentiles became Israel) by being graffed in.)



Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.




I know you do not accept a word I say and will skip around everything,.

However you wont manage to do it, as I know what the beast is, ( the dragon is the devil) and what the false prophet is.

All are unclean spirits, spirits of devils. ( these all go forth to the whole world to deceive everyone.)

The devil ( dragon. Revelation 12:9.) has been doing that since deceiving Adam and Eve. ( the devil was destroyed through Christ. Isaiah 27:1. Hebrews 2:14.)

As for the false prophet, they came after Christ, came in the flesh, as the antichrist denies Christ came in the flesh, they are the deceiver and the antichrist.

That is the dragon being cast out of heaven ( when Christ ascended up to heaven when risen from the dead, after the three days dead, as told for the two witnesses. Revelation 11:9-11.) and the dragon then ( after Christ came in the flesh, which the deceiver antichrist spirit denies, that Christ came in the flesh.) deceives the whole world. ( this is that spirit of antichrist entered into the world, as the dragon devil was cast out of haven and down to the earth, as Christ rose up to heaven having destroyed from haven, he that had the power over death.)




2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.




The angel of the bottomless it is the devil. The devil gave his power to the beast because the devil was cast out of heaven to the earth. ( the devil is the beast on earth.) That is why we see that the beast rose up out of the sea ( the dragon is leviathan in the sea, and the beast rose up from the dragon out of the sea.)

The earth now is deceived by the devil, beast and false prophet. ( many deceiver spirits, entered into the world, and those three, are the unclean spirits that go out to deceive the whole world, devil, beast and false prophet. Revelation 16:13-14. 12:9, 2 John 1:7.)

The beast has the mouth given to him speaking blasphemies, as that spirit is on earth now, ( as Jesus cast the devil out of heaven as He ascended up to there, and power was given 42 months to the beast to continue 42 months., Revelation 13:5, which is the account in Revelation 11:2, of the Gentiles treading down Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified 42 months.)






Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Isaiah 27:1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.



Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and POWER was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[gordon777]

The two witnesses prophecy the other half ( of this week of Christ confirming the covenant. Daniel 9:27.) as this is when the beast/Gentiles, had no power during their testimony/the testimony of Christ. ( the testimony of Christ is the three and half years He preached the Gospel on earth.) and the power the beast was given was the three days, the two witnesses were dead in the earth. ( this is the three days Christ was dead for three days in the earth. Matthew 12:40.) as the beast who was given 42 months POWER, made war against them and killed them. ( His power ran out as they lived again/Christ lived again after the POWER of darkness rose against Him. John 14:30. Luke 22:53.)




Luke 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.





The beast goes into perdition ( men of perdition hear him)

The dragon bound for thousand years while Christ reigns ( in heaven) and they who believe in Christ ( and not hearing the words of perdition of the antichrist spirit on earth) reign with Him, and the thousand years is the day of judgement as Christ and they who believe in Him reign for ever. ( the thousand years is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2.) and the devil is released a little while to deceive the world ( now) and then it is the end ( now)



2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Philippians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.





Revelation 11 is clear it is all about the victory of Christ, that is why it is summed up that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He ( God who is the Lord Jesus Christ) reigns for ever and they who believe in Him ( not the words of blasphemy and perdition) reign with Him for ever.




Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[gordon777]

All scripture is about Jesus Christ, if we do not have that belief, we interpret the scriptures abut something else, and we glorify ourselves and show we understand nothing about Christ, and deny everything about Him.

You can try to disagree with all that was just shown, but it is a complete and simple way to know we hear Christ and not the antichrist, and of course thew antichrist spirit wont agree, not really.

 

[gordon777]

Also some advise for you, instead of pretending something is wonderful for you, try a bit more sincerity.

Instead of disagreeing with every part, ask questions if you cannot understand anything I have written. ( you did ask the question in the op who the 2 witnesses are.)

Otherwise you are seen as being for strife and dispute only, which is the antichrist spirit causing all on earth to be men of perdition with him.





1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[JLB]

Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

The two witnesses are the two angels that accompany the Lord, who were there with Him when He visited Abraham, in Genesis 18.


Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, Genesis 18:1-2


These angels went on to Sodom and Gomorrah in which they eventually called down fire upon that city, as they have the power to do in Revelation 11.


So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.
Genesis 18:33-19:1



These two witnesses are described again in Zechariah 4:11-14


Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”
Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.” Zechariah 4:11-14



Then we see these two fulfilling there role as two witnesses, who witnesses His resurrection first hand.


But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. John 20:11-12



And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
Revelation 11:3-5






JLB