Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

[for_his_glory]

A correction for post #13.

Two points here.

First, the spirit body doesn't die unless the physical person's sins are excessive enough for the indwelling spirit body to be killed in the second death.

Second, the spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected when they were incarnate, which is the same process of resurrection that is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. That is everyone except Jesus, because He was never spiritually dead to begin with. His resurrection was a physical resurrection, and it was different from other rare miraculous physical resurrections, as with Him, His resurrection occurred because He was the sinless Son who was given of His Father the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again.

In the second instance, I did not mean to say that universal resurrection is true, as it is not true.

I have updated my statement of faith to the 2nd edition, which clarifies some important points.

May I always be blessed, and be well, Amen.

How do you understand these verses as no one has ever been resurrected and taken up to the third heaven where God sits on His throne.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.​

 

[Terraphim]

There are various concerns which pertain to the resurrection and ascension which have been discussed in my other thread. It appears that I am not getting the basics across, or they are not being remembered, or some people are being deliberately obtuse.

Shortly then, physical man does not ascend up to higher heavens, only the soul, then soul/spirit (after the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body) John1:51 / Luke20:36. The angels ascend and descend, and the sons of the resurrection (Terraphim) are equal to the angels. So Terraphim also, as they are persons of the Holy Spirit, though they are incarnate spirits, they also ascend and descend upon the Son of Man, while yet within the physical body. That is because of the juxtaposition of heaven and earth, for heaven is not postponed.

Further, concerning the resurrection of life/condemnation John5:28,29 Et al., "all that are in the graves" refers not to those who have physically died, but rather to those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead. The third tertiary heaven is primarily composed of a septum of heavens, called Jacob's ladder. Those incarnate souls who "shall come forth" from their spiritually dead condition in the highest course of juxtaposed Hell, ascend therefrom into the first three septum heavens, successively. Then comes "unto the resurrection of life", which occurs upon the ascension into the fourth septum heaven. One remains in Life as one abides. Otherwise, if one exceeds the measure of grace which is given for any particular heaven, then one descends to the next lower heaven, and the descending processes is called "the resurrection of condemnation". Descension may proceed unto the second death (which is like unto the pre-incarnate breaking of the spirit body Jer1:5 / Psa44:19 / Rev2:5), and even unto perdition of the soul in the lake of fire, which is ages of ages of torment unto final death.

The idea that both good and evil people are generally resurrected is false. Only good people are generally resurrected, and they are in two categories, the just and the unjust Act24:15. The just are saved by supplicative grace through faith in God the Father according to the Royal Law. The unjust are saved by imputed grace through faith in God the Son according to forensic justification. So, the unjust are justified, but not of themselves, so that they are still unjust of themselves, though justified of God. Though that may seem contradictory to some, it is not so. The wicked (wick=living / ed=formerly) are not resurrected, as they are unsaved. They are dead. They remain dead. They die in their sins. They do not enter into life thereafter, either physically or spiritually.

The only thing that a wicked soul may do after death is to be judged for the purpose of assigning a place for transmigration. Or shall God be accused of injustice towards the heathen and the thwarted ones?

Furthermore, in my other thread I showed that Elijah was alive at the time that Jehoram received Elijah's letter, and so there is no reason to believe that Elijah was not translated, for he was translated.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

Concerning my post #9 in this thread;
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Horizontally instead of vertically, it's numbered this way this way more clearly: l 1 l 2 l 1 l 2 l 3 l 4 l, but it's numbered this way in the scripture: l 0 l 1 l 2 l 1 l 2 l 3 l. The first part, "After two days He will revive us:", speaks of two Days which are needed to ascend through two courses, from the upper course of hell that's the foundation of the world through the foundation of the earth. So, one moves from the generation of the wicked through the generation of the Faithful, to the generation of the Called.

This also needs repetition, and clarification, as I assigned two courses (foundations) to Hell, when in fact, there are four foundations of Hell, as I subsequently listed in my statement of faith, 2nd Ed. Terraphim/about.

The foundations of Hell
01) The foundation of Kir Haraseth
02) The foundation of the Jericho
03) The foundation of dust
04) The foundation of the world

The foundations of regeneration
1) The solid foundation of the earth (solid earth)
2) The foundation of the hills
3) The foundation of peace (Jerusalem)
4) The foundation of the temple

So, it's the same interpretation of Hosea6:2 as I gave in post #9, but with a more complete numbering system.

My numbering system;
l 01 l 02 l 03 l 04 l 1 l 2 l 3 l 4 l
............................l 1 l 2 l 1 l 2 l 3 l
The relative numbering system from;
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

These are 1000 year heavenly Days, which one may hasten, such that much less than the available time is actually used.
So, following Day 2 , He revives us, that is, at the beginning of Day 1 (my 2) He quickens us, as if with the warmth of a covering (of the Appearing of the Father's Glory). Then, in the beginning of the third day of a set of three which follow after the set of two which were first given, the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body occurs. That is the general resurrection, which is indicated by the phrase, "raise us up".

Actions of the Spirit
1) cleaned
2) quickened
3) elected
4) resurrected

Works of the Spirit
1) Seal of the Spirit
2) Covering of the Spirit
3) Infilling of the Spirit
4) Indwelling of the Spirit

Be Blessed, be well.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are various concerns which pertain to the resurrection and ascension which have been discussed in my other thread. It appears that I am not getting the basics across, or they are not being remembered, or some people are being deliberately obtuse.

What you bring to these threads are that of your understandings by the doctrines you have been taught by whoever it is that you sit under for your learning. Somethings Biblical, some not. If what we say does not line up with that which has already been written in the full context of scripture that can only mean one is taking scripture out of context making it line up with what they say.

Do you not know that the word Teraphim in classical rabbinical literature as meaning disgraceful things translated as idols or household god's. Genesis 31 about Rachel taking her fathers teraphim belonging to her father and hiding it in a saddle bag. 1 Samuel 19 Michal helps her husband David to escape from Saul and tricks Saul's men by placing a teraphim in his bed saying it was Saul. There are others I could continual to show you, but to only let you know I believe you are being taught false doctrines without realizing it.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Terraphim]

All of this has already been said in my other thread. I know that we disagree. I also know that no matter how minutely, or how comprehensively, I explain my understanding and experience, you will rely on your tradition, as most people are likely to do. I am not speaking to you anymore, if you haven't noticed. I am speaking to those who may find what I am saying to be edifying, according to their knowledge and experience. Of course, you are an administer, so you may say what you will. Actually, I understand the necessity of sound doctrine, even while I present plain doctrine.

Again;
Terra=earth
Seraphim=angel
Terra-phim=earth angel
Terraphim=son of the resurrection

a son of [God in] man=Terraphim
the [only begotten] Son of [God as] Man=Jesus

John10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
John10:35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

These are scriptural examples of the Manifestation;
Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"
Joh 1:48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mat 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

A teraphim is a false god. There are those who will agree with you and say that I teach false doctrine, and therefore accuse me of being a false god, who is a man that is demon possessed. There is nothing new in this, it has been the tactic of the worldly powers to accuse the sons of the resurrection of this, even before Christianity came to be. The faithful Jews who were resurrected during the OT period were accused of being demon possessed by the Sadducees, for they didn't believe in the resurrection, and certainly not resurrection while still incarnate. The Jews are part of the first of the Two Witnesses, and we share a common heritage, and a common process of spiritual development, though there are some details that are different.

There are Christians who maintain that the first covenant has been replaced by the second covenant, though scripture is very plain in several places that both covenants are still valid. Your perspective on the two witnesses is close to being correct in some ways, but you were careful to skirt the reconciliation. That means that it is you who is presenting a false perspective. You may so do. It is better to get right with the Lord. It is not that I do not understand the enmity, and scripture speaks of it as well. However, it is not doctrine which divides, but rather it is the Devil which divides. So I say again, it is better to get right with the Lord.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again;
Terra=earth
Seraphim=angel
Terra-phim=earth angel
Terraphim=son of the resurrection

a son of [God in] man=Terraphim
the [only begotten] Son of [God as] Man=Jesus

Where is your source for this as I already showed you in scripture that Terraphim are hand made idols and we are instructed by God not to worship idols, Exodus 20:4-5; Deuteronomy 4:15-17

John10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?

The word God is not capitalized in that verse, but you have made it read as you wanted by emphasizing it with all capital letters and changing gods to Gods. There is only one true God, not many.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

A teraphim is a false god. There are those who will agree with you and say that I teach false doctrine, and therefore accuse me of being a false god, who is a man that is demon possessed.

We agree that teraphim is a false god, but some also write this word with two "r's". We are to agree with what has already been written and not with what each one says as none of us are infallible, but only God. No one has ever called you a false god, but when one is not teaching the doctrines of Christ then they become their own god rejecting or twisting that which has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles. No one has ever said you are demon possessed, but that what you teach does not line up with scripture as you say you are right and everyone else is wrong.

The faithful Jews who were resurrected during the OT period were accused of being demon possessed by the Sadducees, for they didn't believe in the resurrection, and certainly not resurrection while still incarnate.

Please show the scriptures that say some Jews in the OT were resurrected as that comes against what Jesus said in John 3:13.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

you will rely on your tradition, as most people are likely to do. I am not speaking to you anymore, if you haven't noticed. I am speaking to those who may find what I am saying to be edifying, according to their knowledge and experience. Of course, you are an administer, so you may say what you will. Actually, I understand the necessity of sound doctrine, even while I present plain doctrine.

I do not adhere to traditional teachings of man, but study the word of God for what has already been written.

That's rude that you do not want to speak to me anymore, especially when I have very little contact with you in these threads. If that be the case then you need not reply back to all that are in disagreement with you and have shown you in scripture why they disagree with you. You have every right to believe what you want, but you can not think that you are right and everyone else are wrong. Being an Administrator has nothing to do with anything we discuss in threads as even we are not infallible, but accept correction in our understandings when needed. Sound doctrine only comes by the Holy Spirit teaching us, not by mans doctrines.

 

[Terraphim]

If I am rude, it is because I grew tired of correspondence which mostly ignored my salient points and proof texts, became adversarial, quibbling, repetitive, overbearing, and finally undignified. As a result, I have become loathe to respond. My time comes at a cost, which I bear. Further, I am thankful for this platform with which I am able to broadcast my understanding, whether or not the recipients agree with it, or are thankful for it. However, you have made an effective appeal in your last paragraph. Furthermore, I must remind myself that I cannot expect people to understand in a moment what it has taken a lifetime of struggle to comprehend. Also I know, along with Peter, who was speaking of the Lord's life, and the mount of transfiguration, that;

2Pe 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I do not apply my own will to my interpretation of scripture, but rather I pursue the truth. I have heard it said, "Truth is a hard master, but you will always know where you stand". One who pursues truth will eventually find that they stand in the land of the living.

Where is your source for this as I already showed you in scripture that Terraphim are hand made idols and we are instructed by God not to worship idols

I am the source for this, as this is a name that I have coined. I do not know of any version of this word which is capitalized, and has two rr's, which refers to idols. Therefore, as far as I know, this word does not refer to idols, though you continue to say that it does. The similarity of this coined moniker to the term "teraphim" emphasizes the fact that people who hold to common misperceptions like to view me as a false teacher, a false god, and as being demon possessed, when I am actually spiritually resurrected. It is my intention to present a correct perception of the circumstance, for the sake of many.

The word God is not capitalized in that verse, but you have made it read as you wanted

I copied and pasted this quote as is, from my NKJV e-sword bible. They use the convention of capitalizing quotes, or paraphrases, which the gospel writers copied from the OT. When I wish to explain the meaning of a verse by interjection of words, I am careful to use the conventional brackets around the introduced words, otherwise I would be guilty of adding to the closed cannon. This can be difficult when an experienced Spirit-led scholar wishes to make simple corrections, such as translators and editors do, for something as simple as wishing to capitalize. Even so, I usually do not make unbracketed alterations to quoted material.

John 3:13

I have thoroughly explained this to you, and as much as I find the understanding of this to be wonderful, I have given up trying to explain it to you any further.

I do not adhere to traditional teachings of man, but study the word of God for what has already been written.

I do not know if I should laud you or admonish you, but why should I do either, as I don't think that you really care what my point of view is. Your understanding is your own, and my understanding is my own. If we both further the kingdom of God, then well.

Now that you have wearied me to the point that I am not making any further progress with my presentation, I must say, as always;

Be blessed, be well.

 

[for_his_glory]

If I am rude, it is because I grew tired of correspondence which mostly ignored my salient points and proof texts, became adversarial, quibbling, repetitive, overbearing, and finally undignified. As a result, I have become loathe to respond. My time comes at a cost, which I bear. Further, I am thankful for this platform with which I am able to broadcast my understanding, whether or not the recipients agree with it, or are thankful for it. However, you have made an effective appeal in your last paragraph. Furthermore, I must remind myself that I cannot expect people to understand in a moment what it has taken a lifetime of struggle to comprehend. Also I know, along with Peter, who was speaking of the Lord's life, and the mount of transfiguration, that;

2Pe 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

I do not apply my own will to my interpretation of scripture, but rather I pursue the truth. I have heard it said, "Truth is a hard master, but you will always know where you stand". One who pursues truth will eventually find that they stand in the land of the living.


I am the source for this, as this is a name that I have coined. I do not know of any version of this word which is capitalized, and has two rr's, which refers to idols. Therefore, as far as I know, this word does not refer to idols, though you continue to say that it does. The similarity of this coined moniker to the term "teraphim" emphasizes the fact that people who hold to common misperceptions like to view me as a false teacher, a false god, and as being demon possessed, when I am actually spiritually resurrected. It is my intention to present a correct perception of the circumstance, for the sake of many.

I copied and pasted this quote as is, from my NKJV e-sword bible. They use the convention of capitalizing quotes, or paraphrases, which the gospel writers copied from the OT. When I wish to explain the meaning of a verse by interjection of words, I am careful to use the conventional brackets around the introduced words, otherwise I would be guilty of adding to the closed cannon. This can be difficult when an experienced Spirit-led scholar wishes to make simple corrections, such as translators and editors do, for something as simple as wishing to capitalize. Even so, I usually do not make unbracketed alterations to quoted material.

I have thoroughly explained this to you, and as much as I find the understanding of this to be wonderful, I have given up trying to explain it to you any further.

I do not know if I should laud you or admonish you, but why should I do either, as I don't think that you really care what my point of view is. Your understanding is your own, and my understanding is my own. If we both further the kingdom of God, then well.

Now that you have wearied me to the point that I am not making any further progress with my presentation, I must say, as always;

Be blessed, be well.

No one is ignoring what you are saying, but only disagreeing with you. If you are loathing others then that comes from a prideful heart of someone who says I am absolutly right and what you say has no bearing on my teachings as you are all in error without understanding. You have no desire to discuss the various indifferences towards your doctrines, but to only use these boards as a soapbox.

I see how you harden your heart towards others as you say they weary you and do not want to be bothered by them. This certainly does not reflect Christ in you, but hiding that light under a bushel. There is so much more I could say, but will hold my tongue.

For now you are in violation of the Terms of Service 1.1, 1.3 which you need to go back and read the Terms of Service. I am not going to delete your reply, but would hope you will start treating others with the same respect you want them to show you, even in disagreements.

 

[Terraphim]

For now you are in violation of the Terms of Service 1.1, 1.3 which you need to go back and read the Terms of Service.

1.1: Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love.; ( Mathew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)
1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

As a result of your concluding paragraph in post #46 I felt moved to try to communicate with you again, and to speak frankly of the difficulty that we are having. What I received back was a series of mostly inaccurate and adversarial statements. I know therefore that I made a mistake again in trying to communicate with you.

I again will say that I am grateful for this platform, and I do wish to abide by the Terms of Service.

Very well, I do indeed see my threads as being my soapbox, my petard, my pulpit. The fact that I know my material, and my reality, and I am able to be well spoken, may seem to be pride, but I am far from being a proud man. What I know is that as the Lord has done his awesome work in the likes of me, then He is able to save, to the uttermost, any sinner who turns wholly to Him, even though imperfectly. Even so, I did not decide to work here without pay for the purpose of rubbing my face in the dirt even more, but to teach those who might find some value in what I have to say, and to therefore help the brethren in what is at best a difficult circumstance.

When I spoke of weariness, I was speaking of weariness. I have become acutely aware of the literal meaning of that word in my life. However, I was also speaking of time and effort used in an effort to deal with a circumstance which distracts me from using my limited time for furthering the teaching which I would like to do in my threads.

If I reach the limit of my endurance after repeatedly addressing an attempted rebuttal of my interpretation of a verse, such that I choose to no longer respond, that does not mean that I am hiding my light under a bushel. It means that the person offering the rebuttal is either short of memory, or is being deliberately obtuse, which would probably be a matter of having an ulterior motive.

I would still like to believe that christianforums.net is the best Christian forum that I could have chosen, though I can't seem to get away from the badgering that I have received from the administrators. I am not so surprised, but I had hoped for something better. Still, I have been allowed to say much of what I set out to do, and I am thankful for that. I know that it will help some believers, somewhere. I wished to save these things for a book, but I knew that my material is much to important to risk the loss of it as a result of further delay. So I have been allowed to give away this much for free, to the glory of God.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[for_his_glory]

1.1: Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love.; ( Mathew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)
1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

As a result of your concluding paragraph in post #46 I felt moved to try to communicate with you again, and to speak frankly of the difficulty that we are having. What I received back was a series of mostly inaccurate and adversarial statements. I know therefore that I made a mistake again in trying to communicate with you.

I again will say that I am grateful for this platform, and I do wish to abide by the Terms of Service.

Very well, I do indeed see my threads as being my soapbox, my petard, my pulpit. The fact that I know my material, and my reality, and I am able to be well spoken, may seem to be pride, but I am far from being a proud man. What I know is that as the Lord has done his awesome work in the likes of me, then He is able to save, to the uttermost, any sinner who turns wholly to Him, even though imperfectly. Even so, I did not decide to work here without pay for the purpose of rubbing my face in the dirt even more, but to teach those who might find some value in what I have to say, and to therefore help the brethren in what is at best a difficult circumstance.

When I spoke of weariness, I was speaking of weariness. I have become acutely aware of the literal meaning of that word in my life. However, I was also speaking of time and effort used in an effort to deal with a circumstance which distracts me from using my limited time for furthering the teaching which I would like to do in my threads.

If I reach the limit of my endurance after repeatedly addressing an attempted rebuttal of my interpretation of a verse, such that I choose to no longer respond, that does not mean that I am hiding my light under a bushel. It means that the person offering the rebuttal is either short of memory, or is being deliberately obtuse, which would probably be a matter of having an ulterior motive.

I would still like to believe that christianforums.net is the best Christian forum that I could have chosen, though I can't seem to get away from the badgering that I have received from the administrators. I am not so surprised, but I had hoped for something better. Still, I have been allowed to say much of what I set out to do, and I am thankful for that. I know that it will help some believers, somewhere. I wished to save these things for a book, but I knew that my material is much to important to risk the loss of it as a result of further delay. So I have been allowed to give away this much for free, to the glory of God.

Be blessed, be well.

If you think that those who disagree with your teachings is badgering you then you are very wrong and will never be opened for any discussions, especially with those who do not agree with what you teach. If you do not want to discuss with others in how each have reached their understandings, whether they are right or wrong, then this makes you closed off and do not want to hear what others have to say.

I too use Christian forums as a platform to bring the word of God to the world like so many do, but at times there are others that have more Spiritual knowledge then I have and that bring a better light on what I might have missed in my studying and I appreciate those in whom the Holy Spirit sends to correct me. When one becomes hard hearted and stiffnecked then there is no room for healthy discussions and only becomes an I am right and you are wrong causing division and sowing discord among the brethren which is one of those things God hates, Proverbs 6:16-19.

 

[Free]

Shortly then, physical man does not ascend up to higher heavens, only the soul, then soul/spirit (after the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body) John1:51 / Luke20:36. The angels ascend and descend, and the sons of the resurrection (Terraphim) are equal to the angels. So Terraphim also, as they are persons of the Holy Spirit, though they are incarnate spirits, they also ascend and descend upon the Son of Man, while yet within the physical body. That is because of the juxtaposition of heaven and earth, for heaven is not postponed.

Why use your own made-up word, "Terraphim," in discussing biblical issues? Doesn't that only serve to confuse?

Further, concerning the resurrection of life/condemnation John5:28,29 Et al., "all that are in the graves" refers not to those who have physically died, but rather to those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead.

What, in the context, shows this to be the case?

The third tertiary heaven is primarily composed of a septum of heavens, called Jacob's ladder. Those incarnate souls who "shall come forth" from their spiritually dead condition in the highest course of juxtaposed Hell, ascend therefrom into the first three septum heavens, successively. Then comes "unto the resurrection of life", which occurs upon the ascension into the fourth septum heaven. One remains in Life as one abides.

There is only one heaven, in the sense of which you are speaking and which most mean when speaking of "going to heaven" when one dies.

Otherwise, if one exceeds the measure of grace which is given for any particular heaven, then one descends to the next lower heaven, and the descending processes is called "the resurrection of condemnation".

This is an idea utterly foreign to Scripture, unless you can prove so otherwise.

The idea that both good and evil people are generally resurrected is false.

Actually, it's biblical (all ESV):

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Act 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Notice how consistent the thought is from Dan 12 right through to Rev 20.

Only good people are generally resurrected, and they are in two categories, the just and the unjust Act24:15.

The unjust, by definition, are not good. Look at the Greek word adikos, which is translated as "unjust" in Acts 24:15:

Definition
1. descriptive of one who violates or has violated justice
a. unjust
b. unrighteous, sinful
c. of one who deals fraudulently with others, deceitful

NAS Word Usage - Total: 12
unjust 3, unrighteous 8, wicked 1

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/adikos.html

Unless you can prove otherwise, your statement remains only your opinion and is not what the Bible actually says.

The just are saved by supplicative grace through faith in God the Father according to the Royal Law. The unjust are saved by imputed grace through faith in God the Son according to forensic justification. So, the unjust are justified, but not of themselves, so that they are still unjust of themselves, though justified of God. Though that may seem contradictory to some, it is not so.

The only way everyone is saved who will be saved is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

The wicked (wick=living / ed=formerly) are not resurrected, as they are unsaved. They are dead. They remain dead. They die in their sins. They do not enter into life thereafter, either physically or spiritually.

Again, look especially at Rev 20:11-15.

The only thing that a wicked soul may do after death is to be judged for the purpose of assigning a place for transmigration. Or shall God be accused of injustice towards the heathen and the thwarted ones?

As I have stated before, transmigration is a concept utterly foreign to the Bible and, therefore, to Christianity. It actually goes against Scripture--Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (ESV)--and is a belief that no Christian should hold to. All unbelievers end up in hell, as stated clearly in the NT.

 

[Terraphim]

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person.

I am attempting to become reconciled to a circumstance of a persistent difference of opinion from the administrators. I admit that I did not understand the role of administrators. I believed that they would be more neutral, as moderators. It appears that administrators and suchlike are also presenting their personal perspective, though their personal perspective may be presented as being authoritative.

If you think that those who disagree with your teachings is badgering you then you are very wrong and will never be opened for any discussions, especially with those who do not agree with what you teach.

I am not saying that disagreement is the same as badgering. Badgering would include unscrupulous tactics, though not necessarily wrong tactics. It is, I will allow, not always possible for an administer to deal with so many threads and still be exactly on point when returning to the world view of one particular thread, especially when it is a substantially detailed world view. I have tried to be patient, and I have not been as successful with that as I should have been.

one of those things God hates, Proverbs 6:16-19.

Very good. God hates those who sow discord among the brethren. On the other hand, He loves those who edify the brethren by by showing that we do not need to remain stultified by the mundane doctrines which have subverted His true Church throughout history. The Roman domination of the Church allowed a form of Christianity to prosper, it's true, but there have been problems with what was done, even after the reformation, though some problems were solved. What results from true doctrine is that Semitic reconciliation is effected, and scripture is understood in a comprehensive manner. That is what I have done. That is why this is an important work. I did not just make up my beliefs, however, but rather I have studied scripture for a long time towards gaining comprehensive understanding, both as scripture interprets scripture, and as my experience applies.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

Why use your own made-up word, "Terraphim," in discussing biblical issues? Doesn't that only serve to confuse?

I have allowed myself that occasional privilege. That is one way that language evolves.

What, in the context, shows this to be the case?

The context of John5:28,29 in this regard is found in verses 24 and 25.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

In speaking of the resurrection of life and the resurrection of condemnation, Jesus was not speaking of physically dead people, but rather of the normal everyday estate of spiritually dead people, who therefore have naked souls, and not spirit bodies which in the concurrent resurrection cloth and further cloth souls. Jesus said here that those who hear the voice of the Son of God will live. During the Manifestation, Jesus speaks to the believer. So, not everyone hears the voice of the Son of God, but only those who were formerly spiritually dead and who's souls have ascended to the third septum heaven, which is in the third tertiary heaven. The wicked remain spiritually dead, and never hear His Manifested voice, though they will eventually hear the voice of post-incarnate judgement.

Thank you for your work in further presenting your opinion concerning the resurrection. We do not agree, but again, I understand the necessity for sound doctrine, which resounds in a political context, but I propound plain doctrine, which integrates according to spiritual truth. You see in scripture a consistency regarding your view of the general resurrection, but that is because scripture is wonderfully wrought, and so, two consistent world-views proceed therefrom. However, my world-view properly accounts for several verses which otherwise have to be laboriously, or even torturously interpreted.

The unjust, by definition, are not good. Look at the Greek word adikos, which is translated as "unjust" in Acts 24:15:

Quite true. That is, without Jesus. Forensic justification means that the unjust who are believers are given the free gift of imputed righteousness.

The only way everyone is saved who will be saved is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Yet, I have given several scriptural quotations which prove that replacement theology is false, and that God's first covenant with the Jews is an everlasting covenant. They are saved thereby, and I have given my perspective of the methodology by which Jewish salvation occurs. I am further being so bold as to say that Islamic salvation is likewise related to Jewish and Christian salvation, though I am not an expert in Islamic theology.

Concerning the remainder of your post, we have previously dealt with our differing perspectives in my other thread about the true nature of the general resurrection, which is concurrently ongoing for those souls who have attained to the fourth course of the heavens in the ascension.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am attempting to become reconciled to a circumstance of a persistent difference of opinion from the administrators. I admit that I did not understand the role of administrators. I believed that they would be more neutral, as moderators. It appears that administrators and suchlike are also presenting their personal perspective, though their personal perspective may be presented as being authoritative.

I am not saying that disagreement is the same as badgering. Badgering would include unscrupulous tactics, though not necessarily wrong tactics. It is, I will allow, not always possible for an administer to deal with so many threads and still be exactly on point when returning to the world view of one particular thread, especially when it is a substantially detailed world view. I have tried to be patient, and I have not been as successful with that as I should have been.

Very good. God hates those who sow discord among the brethren. On the other hand, He loves those who edify the brethren by by showing that we do not need to remain stultified by the mundane doctrines which have subverted His true Church throughout history. The Roman domination of the Church allowed a form of Christianity to prosper, it's true, but there have been problems with what was done, even after the reformation, though some problems were solved. What results from true doctrine is that Semitic reconciliation is effected, and scripture is understood in a comprehensive manner. That is what I have done. That is why this is an important work. I did not just make up my beliefs, however, but rather I have studied scripture for a long time towards gaining comprehensive understanding, both as scripture interprets scripture, and as my experience applies.

Be blessed, be well.

This thread is about who the two witnesses are. If you want to take this conversation to a private PM with me we can discuss it there as I will not derail this thread taking it off topic trying to discuss this with you here.

 

[Free]

The context of John5:28,29 in this regard is found in verses 24 and 25.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

In speaking of the resurrection of life and the resurrection of condemnation, Jesus was not speaking of physically dead people, but rather of the normal everyday estate of spiritually dead people, who therefore have naked souls, and not spirit bodies which in the concurrent resurrection cloth and further cloth souls. Jesus said here that those who hear the voice of the Son of God will live. During the Manifestation, Jesus speaks to the believer.

John 5:24-25 refer to the spiritually dead. John 28-29 refer to the physically dead--"all who are in the tombs"--and the general resurrection at Christ's return.

So, not everyone hears the voice of the Son of God, but only those who were formerly spiritually dead and who's souls have ascended to the third septum heaven, which is in the third tertiary heaven. The wicked remain spiritually dead, and never hear His Manifested voice, though they will eventually hear the voice of post-incarnate judgement.

Not all will hear his voice and be saved, no, but all in the tombs will hear his voice and rise, to either "the resurrection of life" or "the resurrection of judgement." And there is no progression through levels of heaven. Paul mentions the "third heaven" but that simply means the place where God dwells. Jews referred to the atmosphere as the first heaven, the stars and universe as the second heaven, and God's dwelling was the third heaven. It is the third heaven that is most often meant by just the use of "heaven."

Quite true. That is, without Jesus. Forensic justification means that the unjust who are believers are given the free gift of imputed righteousness.

You misunderstand. The unjust are not believers at all; that is precisely why they are called "unjust." It is the equivalent in John 5:29 of "those who have done evil."

Yet, I have given several scriptural quotations which prove that replacement theology is false, and that God's first covenant with the Jews is an everlasting covenant. They are saved thereby, and I have given my perspective of the methodology by which Jewish salvation occurs.

What I have said has nothing to do with replacement theology.

I am further being so bold as to say that Islamic salvation is likewise related to Jewish and Christian salvation, though I am not an expert in Islamic theology.

No, there is no relation with the Islamic idea of salvation.

Concerning the remainder of your post, we have previously dealt with our differing perspectives in my other thread about the true nature of the general resurrection, which is concurrently ongoing for those souls who have attained to the fourth course of the heavens in the ascension.

We may have talked about it, but you haven't really addressed much. There are a number of concerning, heretical and heterodox beliefs that you have stated that need to be addressed.

 

[Terraphim]

John 5:24-25 refer to the spiritually dead. John 28-29 refer to the physically dead--"all who are in the tombs"--and the general resurrection at Christ's return.

You like to say that context is king. Here we have context which is all in one paragraph, in which according to you the Lord switches meaning mid-paragraph from the spiritualty dead to the physically dead. Such a confusing segue would be an indication of a fickle-minded capricious God. Do you really wish to stand in the gap and hold the universe together for that split second?

What I have said has nothing to do with replacement theology.

What you said is this;

The only way everyone is saved who will be saved is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

The replacement of Judaism with Christianity would mean that there is only one method of salvation for all people, which is what you seem to be saying. What I am saying is that both Jews and Christians are saved, and they are saved in a similar manner, but with some differences. Your above statement, as literally written, is true only for Christians, but it is also true for Jews, if I expand on it in this way; Salvation is by supplicative or imputed grace alone, through faith in Jehovah or Jesus alone, in Christ veiled or manifest alone. This is one of the main points that I am trying to make in this discussion.

No, there is no relation with the Islamic idea of salvation.

Though I have read some books in this area, I would do well to read some more.

We may have talked about it, but you haven't really addressed much. There are a number of concerning, heretical and heterodox beliefs that you have stated that need to be addressed.

The general resurrection is a step beyond the main area of interest here, which is the Manifestation, as that is the event which makes for the two witnesses of the Lord; whether He appears to a believer manifestly or veiled.
Every branch is heretical from the perspective of another branch, especially when a new branch emerges. Jesus was martyred as a heretic, and a true servant is not above his master, for what people have said of Him, people will say of His servants as well. You do not understand my perspective very well, true, because I have understood your perspective and moved beyond it, as it was necessary to include all of scripture in a comprehensive interpretation. One can choose to believe in the Lord, or to believe in religion. Religion, like with the circumcision party, may be a necessary tutor for a while, but one must eventually begin to walk. That means that one must make their own decisions on the way.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

There is only one heaven, in the sense of which you are speaking and which most mean when speaking of "going to heaven" when one dies.

Heaven is juxtaposed, not postponed. There is a similarity to the concept of a postponed heaven, in that there is a limit to transmigration, which limit occurs after one translates. Post-translation existence is not eternally secure, however, but one may thereafter maintain their upper room position by abiding according to rule. Concerning the juxtaposition of the lower spiritual heavens;
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

This passage is rather hard to misinterpret, as it begins with “when we were dead in trespasses”, and proceeds to “raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places”. Not only does heavenly juxtaposition become apparent hereby, but so also the general concurrent resurrection becomes apparent.

Multiple biblical heavens are a generally acknowledged fact, which at the least, are in Genesis given as being composed of the face of heaven which is the atmosphere, the outer-space firmament heaven, and the spiritual waters above the firmament heaven. I refer to these three as the tertiary heavens. The face of heaven is defined by the birds which fly in it, and the firmament heaven is defined by the lights of the moon and sun which were placed in it (and apparently by the fixed and wandering stars, as well). The waters below the firmament were defined by their gathering into the sea. The waters above the firmament are not immediately defined in Genesis. Later in scripture, however, we find evidence that the “waters which were above the firmament” Gen1:7 is the first indication of a spiritual heaven. What is above outer-space? Only a spiritual heaven can be above outer-space, for “above the firmament” is understood metaphorically.

Waters above the firmament:
Living water; John4:10 / John4:11 / John7:38
Living waters; Song4:15 / Jer2:13 / Jer17:13 / Zec14:8
Water of life; Rev21:6 / Rev22:1 / Rev22:17

So, the question now becomes, is the spiritual heaven divided into multiple heavens? Is it a heaven of heavens?
Neh_9:6 You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.

Nehemiah was the Persian governor of Judea who went to rebuild Jerusalem, following Ezra who began the work some years earlier. Here Nehemiah wrote of a heaven which is a heaven of heavens, which is inhabited by a host of worshipers. The host of heaven is understood as being either a hierarchy of spirits, or as the visible celestial bodies, which are the lights of the sun and moon along with the fixed stars (constellations) and wandering stars (planets).

The belief in seven spiritual heavens was a well established belief in Judaism even before Nehemiah, which belief was also held by Solomon, who’s wisdom was stated in the Bible as being greater than any man’s. Solomon said;
2Ch_6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with men on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!

Before Solomon, the belief in seven heavens was also compatible with the tradition of Jacob’s ladder.

The temple menorah, the seven branched Jewish candle-stick, was given of God in the Old Testament, and was reflective of the belief in seven heavens. The sun, moon, and five classical (visible) planets (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter) were likely understood as being for signs in the firmament that there were seven heavens.
Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

Indeed, the visible host of heaven was understood to be the habitation of the spiritual host of heaven. The seven wandering stars would be the signs of seven heavens which are inhabited by seven spirits, or seven divisions of the hierarchy of the persons of the Holy Spirit. This belief has been carried through to our New Testament belief in the seven Spirits of God. Rev1:4 / Rev3:1 / Rev4:5 / Rev5:6

Indeed, we who spiritually ascend are promised a heavenly habitation.
Joh14:2 / Exo32:13 / Dan8:10 / Deu4:9

The number of spiritual heavens has actually increased in the New Testament from 7 to 12, rather than decreasing to only one spiritual heaven. The New Jerusalem is the city four-square which has 12 foundations, which are 12 heavens. Again, the New Jerusalem is not postponed, but rather juxtaposed. The signs in the stars of heaven are the 12 constellations, which represent the 12 heavens, that are the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.

This expanding knowledge of the heavens is consistent with the ancient idea of the four winds (Spirits) from the four corners (pillars) of the earth, which expanded to the seven Spirits of God which correspond to the cross and six legs of the Pauline plane, xzy (later known as the Cartesian plane, xyz).
Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width [x] and length [z] and depth and height [y]—
Eph 3:19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge [cross]; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

So, we went from an understanding of 4 heavens to 7 heavens to 12 heavens. This corresponds to the 4 dimensions (corner pillars) with which we map the Earth from the heaven of the atmosphere, to the 7 dimensions (axial pillars) with which we map the stars from the heaven of outer-space, and then to the 12 dimensions (string pillars) with which we map the heavens of the underlying structure of the space-time continuum using string theory; 10 dimensions, time, and the Power. String carvings are something which requires some practice in the spirit realm (after one’s spirit body is concurrently resurrected), like practicing cursive lettering.

It’s relevant to note that there are five pillars of Islam, six pillars of Judaism, and seven pillars of Christianity.
1) Gen28:18 / 2) Gen31:45 / 3) Gen35:14 / 4) Gen35:20 / 5) 1King7:21 / 6) 1King7:21 / 7) Mat27:32

So, as deism is the idea of a remote Creator, I’ll say that daism is the idea of a personal Creator who has given multiple 1,000 year Days within which an abiding body’s soul/spirit is given to ascend through multiple heavens; a Day, at most, per heaven. Hence, the heavenly Days of daism.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

Though a circular or spherical Earth is part of Biblical knowledge;
Isa_40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The early terminology of the flat earth concept is apparent in this earlier passage of scripture;
1Sa_2:8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And He has set the world upon them.

So, an earlier concept of four heavens is not surprising. One might wonder why there is no point of origin in the initial four dimensions (heavens), as there is an origin in the later seven dimensions (heavens). That is because the early concept of four winds (spirits, heavens) would blow towards the center, not originate from the center. So, as the four winds came from the four corners of the earth, there had to be four pillars which would hold up the earth and sky. Hence, the (four) "pillars of the earth";
1Sa_2:8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And He has set the world upon them.
Rev_7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
For the educated, even in early times, these were metaphorical terms which were drawn from common figures of speech, and they were not understood to mean a flat earth with literal pillars at the corners. The four pillars which held up the temple veil may be viewed as being representative of the pillars of the earth, as the four pillars represent the first four heavens, which are where man begins to interface with God, as at the veil. The tearing of the veil at the time of the Lord's crucifixion symbolized the end of a purely sacerdotal interaction, which came with the revelation of the holy gospel.

One might further wonder how the cross of the Pauline plane may be compared to the origin point of the Cartesian plane, when the cross had no z axis. The answer is that the z axis was introduced by the Roman soldier who bore the spear of destiny (the predestined gospel conferred predestination upon believers) which pierced the side of Jesus. It was slanted at an angle which pierced the heart of Jesus, at the center. The slant of the spear corresponds with the perspective drawing of the z axis, at a diagonal slant.
Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—
Eph 3:19 to know the love of Christ [cross] which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

The seven pillars, as listed in scripture, concludes with the cross, which has a point of origin. So, the six axial dimensions, plus the origin, gives seven dimensions, or heavens, which are represented by seven pillars;
Pro_9:1 Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars;

The first seven spiritual heavens are juxtaposed, and they begin with the four heavens of the regeneration, because the general concurrent resurrection of the spirit body occurs at the beginning of the fourth septum heaven. This means that the lower form of the spirit body is built within the physical body, which operation concludes the second birth;
Eph_2:22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Gal_4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
1Co_15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The seven overcomings through the seven Churches of Rev2,3 is a description of the process of the ascension of the incarnate soul/spirit, not a historical or actual geographical depiction. The four living creatures of Rev4 are the four incremental forms, or ranks, of the spirit body as it ascends beyond the first three septum heavens;
Rev 4:7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.
Eze_1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle.

The first form is like a lion which (like an English coat of arms) is like a dragon, which is the lower spirit body form into which the Devil was cast down. The lion/dragon is the Leviathan (Levi; priestly tribe) which is described in Job41. The second spirit body form is the calf, which is the Behemoth of Job40. The third spirit body form is the man, which is the full lower angelic form;
Rev 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
The fourth spirit body form is a higher angelic form, which is like the eagle;
Isa_40:31 But those who wait on the LORD Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.

As for the question of how the 12 foundations (heavens) correspond to the 11 dimensions plus the Power in physics, for that answer you will have to work the equations. I did not say, however, that the Power primarily resides in the 12th heaven.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

3CF statement of faith.pdf

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[Terraphim]

In this part of this thread I have been discussing the commonality of the perspective of heaven which is shared by the two witnesses of Rev11. It is a heaven which is one realm, which is subdivided into multiple heavens, a heaven of heavens. The spiritual realm is called the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. It is subdivided into heaven and hell, which is above and below. It is further subdivided into light and dark, which is stage right and left, respectively.
Mat_25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

That is to say, those generally resurrected incarnate souls/spirits who leave the light and remain in the dark will continue to descend in the resurrection of condemnation, until they eventually reach Hell. While in the dark, one does not have the power of God to work his miraculous works.
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming [is extant, and] when [entered into] no one can work.

The resurrection of life is like a pillar of cloud by day, for Jesus comes with clouds, clouds of witnesses, which are wheels of Terraphim, in the chariots of God. The resurrection of condemnation is like a pillar of fire by night, and the end thereof is in hell.


So, in furthering this discussion of multiple heavens, I will quote a previous statement that I made.

So, an earlier concept of four heavens is not surprising. One might wonder why there is no point of origin in the initial four dimensions (heavens), as there is an origin in the later seven dimensions (heavens). That is because the early concept of four winds (spirits, heavens) would blow towards the center, not originate from the center. So, as the four winds came from the four corners of the earth, there had to be four pillars which would hold up the earth and sky.

When I said, "sky", I was getting ahead of myself. Above the four pillars of the earth, is the seven pillars of the face of heaven. The four pillars of the earth are like the horizontal components of the cross, the cross-beam and spear, which form the cardinal directions, or dimensions, which are the four winds, spirits, or heavens. The seven pillars of the face of heaven are all seven components of the cross.

The face of heaven is that of the Lord Jesus. However, just like the star of His present nativity, our Sol, His face appears either Manifest or Veiled, just as Sol is either clear or clouded.

There is another reason that the idea of seven heavens is compared with pillars. The motions of the seven classical wandering stars are cataloged in a book called an ephemeris, which lists the celestial positions of a transient heavenly body in columns which extend for the length of each page. These columns are likened to pillars. So, seven wandering stars may be viewed as a sign and a nativity of seven spirits of God, each of which overrules a heaven.
Rev 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Rev_3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Rev_4:5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev_5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Now that a more advanced understanding of physics complements a more advanced understanding of metaphysics, the numbers of 4, 7, and 12 are found to be further relevant. There are four basic forces, the weak nuclear force, the strong nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and the gravitational force. The electromagnetic force was once understood to be two distinct forces, but is now mathematically understood to be one force. One of the greatest goals of physics is to mathematically reconcile all forces into one force, the mathematics of which would be called the grand unified field theory. There has recently been an additional force to reconcile, however, which has not been properly named, but is referred to as dark energy. This force is known by the resultant phenomenon of the accelerating expansion of the universe. So, we have, in effect, six forces, and a seventh, which is the Power of creation. So, there is 4 and seven, which forces are viewed as being conveyed by force particles, except for the Power. The number 12 is not related to force, but rather it is the number of spacial dimensions which are revealed by string theory; 10 dimensions, time, and the Power. The structure of space is carved into energy wave-forms which combine in various ways to produce force and matter particles. It is interesting to note that not all particles obey the Pauli exclusion principle, which mandates that two particles cannot occupy the same space and time. Consequently, there are two types of particles which are able to be juxtaposed, and to pass through each other.

We have a common reality, the physics of which are reconciled to the metaphysics. Science and true religion are actually compatible, when understood correctly.

Be blessed, be well.