Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

[gordon777]

If we are to correctly state who the two anointed ones are, we have to follow where it is told about them. ( Jesus Christ is the anointed of God, above the angels, which proves immediately the angels are not the anointed witnesses of the Lord at all, plus that is honouring angels before Christ, all the scriptures testify of Christ. John 5:39. )





Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Habakkuk 3:13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.





Naturally we have to know what the 1260 days/ years are, and the 42 weeks/1260 days/ years are. Total 2520 days/years.

Just turn the page from Revelation 11, to 12. This is all the testimony of the victory of Christ( which the antichrist denies and does not confess.) and it is all about the week the Messiah confirmed with us in His covenant. ( establish the second in His blood, to take away the first covenant. Daniel 9:27. Hebrews 10:9.)

On top of that, in the middle of the week the sacrifice ( of the first covenant) is caused to cease of course by the sacrifice of the body of Christ for all.

1260 days/years, is the first half of the week, just the exact same as the first half of the week Christ was on earth, where the three and a half years He preached the Gospel ( three and a half years being three and a half days to God in this week confirmed) and after three days ( the same account as in Revelation 11 as 42 months is three and a half years, which are the other half of the three and a half days to God confirming the week of the covenant.)) the beast kills, and in Jerusalem they lie dead for three and a half days.

In Revelation 12, we also see that 1260 days/years, is equal to a time, and times and a half a time/three and a half times. ( this is when salvation came, as it is the middle of the week when Christ caused the sacrifice to cease, when He offered His blood for the new covenant, taking away the first, to establish the second.)






Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.





Now that we know that 1260 days/years, is also equal to 3.5 times. We know that is half of the week, and the other half is another 1260 days/years, which is 2520 years, and is seven times.






Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.




Revelation 12 shows the war in heaven, and the devil cast out ( when Christ confirmed the covenant with many for one week and caused the sacrifice to cease, Daniel 9:27, by establish His own second sacrifice of Himself, because that is how Christ in righteousness makes war. Revelation 19:11)

Daniel 12 gives this same account, and the time of trouble was after Christ preached for three and a half years and gave His body and rose again ( then the devil was cast out of heaven as Christ ascended up to there.)

The end comes after seven times, ( the week, of two lots, of three and a half times) and when God has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people.)

Remembering that God has put it in His own power when to restore the kingdom to Israel( the times and seasons. Acts 1:6-7.) we see when the time is, we know the week of Christ confirming the covenant is two halves of 1260days/years. One half, is 1260 days the 2 witnesses prophecy, and the other is 42 months/1260 days the Gentiles tread down the holy city, Jerusalem.

Daniel 2 shows the same words as Acts 1:6-7, of the changing of times and seasons ( by God) and in Daniel 2, it is the second year of the reign of king Nebuchadnezzer, which is 604 BC. That is the beginning of the 42 months, the Gentiles tread down Jerusalem, Revelation 11:2. We know this because it is also the time of the Gentiles as told in Luke 21:24 ( 42 months is three and a half times, half of that week Christ confirms the covenant with many. Daniel 9:27. Luke 21:24.)

Starting then from 604 BC, we add on the time of the Gentiles, 42months/1260days/years. and from the middle of the week when Christ confirms the covenant, we add on the other half, which is 1260 days/years the 2 witnesses prophecy. The time we come to is 1917 ( no 0 year when the times became A.D.)

Also from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away ( in the middle of the week Christ confirms with many) it is from 604 BC until the middle of the week, which is 657 AD, and adding what Daniel 12:11 shows, 1290 days/years, we come to 1947.

Everybody is free to go and look up and see that the kingdom of Israel was freed during world war one, in 1917, and declared to be returned to the Jews one day, which happened thirty years later, in 1947 the UN voted to officially recognize Israel,right after world war two. ( Jesus confirmed the signs for the end were these world wars. Matthew 24:7.)




Daniel 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

[gordon777]

What is the point of you guys guessing who the 2 witnesses are, when Jesus has said plainly He and the father are two who bear witness ?

Who has belief in the Word of Christ and chooses other witnesses over Him, when He alone is the faithful witness ?

Choosing angels when it is prohibited ( as even the devil came as an angel of light:



2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,



Or picking Moses and Elijah when Christ is over His own house and we are His house and Jesus said He does NOT ACCEPT THE TESTIMONY OF MAN WHICH WAS FROM JOHN BAPTIST/SPIRIT OF ELIAS with the same spirit as ELIJAH...



2 Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.





Or picking different governments, that they somehow are witnesses, must be a sport to people, to play guessing games.

 

[gordon777]

That is a thorough testimony, there is no reason to ignore it, or think it is not accurate, when it is.

Don't ask me any questions, I wont be answering now.

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is the anointed of God, above the angels, which proves immediately the angels are not the anointed witnesses of the Lord at all, plus that is honouring angels before Christ, all the scriptures testify of Christ. John 5:39. )

Of course Jesus Christ is The Anointed One.

However, angels and saints are also anointed.

We are never to honor angels before Christ, which of course I never said, or insinuated.


Lucifer (the king of Tyre) was called the anointed cherub


Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:11-15




JLB

 

[JLB]

What is the point of you guys guessing who the 2 witnesses are, when Jesus has said plainly He and the father are two who bear witness ?

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 11:3-10

• my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth

So you believe God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ will take on flesh (again) and be clothed in sack cloth?

• When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

So you believe God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ will be overcome and killed by the beast?

• Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.

So you believe God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ will lie dead in the streets for three and a half days?






so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7





JLB

 

[Terraphim]

Thank you.

Paradise is a place of immortal life but not eternal life. Not Elijah, Enoch nor Moses were resurrected. They didn't experience death.

I do not see a distinction between immortal and eternal life.
As Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were translated, as shown in the transfiguration, they has to be resurrected first. The resurrection is of the spirit body within the physical body, non-en-mass, and concurrent. Physical death does not happen before resurrection. The concurrent resurrection of the spirit body has been an ongoing process throughout both OT and NT history, and it happens to believers once they begin the fourth heavenly Day in the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven. Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

This is sincerely wonderful to me.

Israel hated Christ as they betrayed and murdered Him. It is not a confused issue, ( the Gentiles became Israel) by being graffed in.)

Some of those of Israel were, and are, as you say, but not all. This is something that you must learn, even in your pride.

if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in

Belief in Jehovah is just as valid for the salvation of the Jews, as belief in Jesus is valid for Christians.

I know you do not accept a word I say and will skip around everything,.

I am trying to respond, with gratitude for your level of scholarship, to what I am able.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I have not denied that Jesus has come in the flesh, but that does not make Him one of the two witnesses.

the devil is the beast on earth

Not so, and I will show you this below.

power was given 42 months to the beast to continue 42 months., Revelation 13:5, which is the account in Revelation 11:2, of the Gentiles treading down Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified 42 months.)

Thank you for this insight. This is true. However, "the Gentiles" of Rev11:2 are of four sorts. If the Gentiles don't convert to Judaism, then they either become Christian, or they become servants of the first or second beast, or they become servants of Gog and Magog. What I wrote about the 42 months/1260 days being different perspectives on the same thing, is concerning the relation of Jews and Christians. Those gentiles who become servants of the NT beasts or Gog and Magog are those of Rev13:5.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Above you said that the Devil is the beast on earth, and I disagreed. The Devil is in this verse shown to be Abaddon, or Apollyon, and is the angel of the bottomless pit. The first NT beast ascends from the bottomless pit, but that doesn't make them synonymous. The fact that they are different, is shown below.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:

The dragon is the Devil, and is here shown to be distinct from the first NT beast, and therefore also distinct from the second NT beast.

the power the beast was given was the three days, the two witnesses were dead in the earth. ( this is the three days Christ was dead for three days in the earth. Matthew 12:40.)

The two witnesses were dead for 3.5 days, not 3 days. These two periods do not correspond.

Revelation 11 is clear it is all about the victory of Christ, that is why it is summed up that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He ( God who is the Lord Jesus Christ) reigns for ever and they who believe in Him ( not the words of blasphemy and perdition) reign with Him for ever.

Yes, very good. It is His victory, and it is also through His witnesses during the time of the Gentiles.

Also some advise for you, instead of pretending something is wonderful for you, try a bit more sincerity.

Instead of disagreeing with every part, ask questions if you cannot understand anything I have written. ( you did ask the question in the op who the 2 witnesses are.)

Otherwise you are seen as being for strife and dispute only, which is the antichrist spirit causing all on earth to be men of perdition with him.

Thank you for your concern. Coming from different perspectives can lead me to question what you are saying, and at times I have to ponder some questions. I am glad that you have made yourself available. That does not make me your student, but I do hope that I can learn something from our interactions, or at least be reminded of things.

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Here you have gone to far. You need reproof for your pride.
It is well that you have come to an advanced understanding according to your perspective and tradition. This is laudable and highly praiseworthy. That does not mean that you have achieved a complete or accurate understanding.
Consider me to be arrogant for proclaiming my Bible truth, if you will. That doesn't mean that you may unjustifiably malign me by misrepresenting my core values by misusing scripture. If you do not wish to further peaceful understanding, then do not continue to post on my threads after you have presented your opinion.
Be blessed, be well.

 

[JLB]

Belief in Jehovah is just as valid for the salvation of the Jews, as belief in Jesus is valid for Christians.

Jesus is YHWH!

The Lord God. The Almighty. The Beginning and the End.

The First and Last. Alpha and Omega.




Jehovah is a perverted man made name for God.

The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe “Jehovah” to be the proper pronunciation of YHWH. There was no true J sound in ancient Hebrew. Even the Hebrew letter vav, which is transliterated as the W in YHWH is said to have originally had a pronunciation closer to W than the V of Jehovah. Jehovah is essentially a Germanic pronunciation of the Latinized transliteration of the Hebrew YHWH. It is the letters of the tetragrammaton, Latinized into JHVH, with vowels inserted. “Yahweh” or “Yehowah” is far more likely to be the correct pronunciation.

Is Jehovah the true name of God? | GotQuestions.org

Is Jehovah / Jehova the true name of God? How did using Jehovah as the name of God originate?

www.gotquestions.org

Jehovah is a compound word like Halleluyah.


Yah = Lord — shortened form.

hôvâh, ho-vaw'; —mischief.


another form for H1942; ruin:

1. desire
   1. desire (in bad sense)
2. chasm (fig. of destruction)
   1. engulfing ruin, destruction, calamity

The scriptures teach us that Jesus is the name of the LORD.

The name above every name.





JLB

 

[Terraphim]

Thank you.

The two witnesses are the two angels that accompany the Lord, who were there with Him when He visited Abraham, in Genesis 18.

It appears that this may be so. The only objection which I can raise at the moment is that angels don't have actual physical bodies, but rather they may utilize a docetic form to appear physical for a while. Whether this would extend to maintaining the appearance of a dead body for 3.5 years, would be questionable.

The vast majority of Jewish and Christian biblical scholars and linguists do not believe “Jehovah” to be the proper pronunciation of YHWH.

True, but it is the language of convenience. Jesus is the Word, and the Word is YHWH, also true. However, that is in reference to His unity in the Trinity. Jesus' Father is He whom the Jews view as YHWH. That is who I was calling Jehovah. Thanks for the scholarship, though.
Be blessed, be well.

 

[JLB]

It appears that this may be so. The only objection which I can raise at the moment is that angels don't have actual physical bodies, but rather they may utilize a docetic form to appear physical for a while. Whether this would extend to maintaining the appearance of a dead body for 3.5 years, would be questionable.

How long did the Angel of the Lord appear as a Man, the died for our sins?

I gave Genesis 18 as a foundation of how angels can function on earth in the form of humans.

Shall we discuss Genesis 6 to get further understanding?

I do see your point though, and you have have an open mind.

Thanks for your insightful comments.




JLB

 

[Benadam]

do not see a distinction between immortal and eternal life.

They are distinct. Jesus' earthly life was immortal but passable. Like Adam's life in Paradise. Eternal life is not temporal. Eternal life is primarily changeless. Jesus entered eternal life with an eternal body. Eternal life is immortal life but immortal life is not necessarily eternal.

 

[Terraphim]

They are distinct. Jesus' earthly life was immortal but passable. Like Adam's life in Paradise. Eternal life is not temporal. Eternal life is primarily changeless. Jesus entered eternal life with an eternal body. Eternal life is immortal life but immortal life is not necessarily eternal.

An interesting distinction. Yes, I can recall having some similar thoughts, though the hair doesn't always split that finely. I recalled this passage after contemplating your post today;

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
1Ti 6:14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

"who gives life to all things", "who alone has immortality" which we share as we abide.
In addition to the words we are discussing, this is also is a reference to the Manifestation of Jesus Christ, which is also called His appearing, and it is distinct from His second coming. Notice also that Jesus is He "whom no man has seen or can see". Of course, Paul was speaking of Jesus subsequent to His ascension. Concerning His ongoing personal Manifestation prior to the end of the times of the Gentiles Lk21:20-24 (which is the same thing as the great tribulation Mat24:15-21) He taught;

The great tribulation of the dispersion of the Jewish nation, the Diaspora, began with the abomination of desolation of unclean Roman sacrifice in the temple prior to it's destruction in AD70;
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Mat 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

His manifestation is not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit, even "as the lightning".
The Manifestation does not come by the sight of the eyes, but by the vision of God.
At the end of the times of the Gentiles/the great tribulation there will be the second coming;

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Benadam]

who gives life to all things", "who alone has immortality" which we share as we abide.
In addition to the words we are discussing, this is also is a reference to the Manifestation of Jesus Christ, which is also called His appearing, and it is distinct from His second coming.

He did describe Himself that way a lot too.
He describes life as not separated from his being.
Jesus says things like" I am the life" "i am Truth" .
Can you explain what Jesus' Appearance is about?
Your reply is thought provoking. Thank you so much.

 

[Terraphim]

Benadam
Yes, this is wonderful to me, there is a personal Manifestation;
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
Joh 10:35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

You can see below that His Manifestation is different from the second coming;

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

People dispute that there is a Manifestation, and they say that there is only the second coming.

KJV Prov29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

In my experience, and from anecdotal evidence, there are four night visions which are very relevant to Christian spiritual development. The Visions of the Spirit declare the Works of the Spirit in the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven, which in order are the seal of the Spirit, the Covering of the Spirit, the Infilling of the Spirit, and the Indwelling of the Spirit. Previous to being saved, one is spiritually dead, and there is the burning in house vision. After salvation, the four visions are the vision of being Anointed, the vision of the Father's Glory, the vision of Jesus in Glory, and the vision of the Beloved. The first vision is given with the Holy Spirit to all who are truly saved. However, if one does not advance, then the Anointing vision may not be remembered, lacking the context of the other visions, and may seem to be insignificant. The vision of Glory may not be immediately understood to be the back-side of the Father's countenance. You don't want to see the front-side of the Father's countenance, because that is death, and it is what happens just before perdition. So keep walking forwards in the ascending way of the soul and spirit. The next vision is the Manifestation of Jesus in Glory, which is what you have inquired about. To this end it is important to continue loving God and to keep the moral aspects of the Law, to at least accept and value it, and to know that God's will is what is best for you. For a Christian, His Manifestation is personal, and He is not veiled. For a faithful Jew or faithful Islamic, they see a veiled countenance in Glory, which is a persona which they believe to be their intermediary, Moses or Mohammad, but as there is a veil, they do not know that it is actually Jesus, through whom they are saved, by faith in the Father for faithful Jews, or by faith in the Power of the God of Abraham for faithful Islamics. The Power is the formless Spirit of God from which the Holy Spirit proceeds, through the Father, the Son, and into the created hierarchy. The fourth vision, of the Beloved, does not mean that it is certain, as the eventuality depends upon vagaries of will and circumstance. Therefore, there may be several occurrences of the vision of the Beloved, before "a twinkle of an eye" becomes more than a nocturnal emission of light from a distant star, to wish upon. Therefore, the fourth vision may indicate that the beginning of the Indwelling of the Spirit may soon begin, which is the personal concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical bodies. This is the only resurrection, except for rare miraculous physical resurrections. It is the resurrection of the just and the unjust. The just are faithful, and live by the Law. They can't be saved by Law alone, but by faith and Law. This is a hard way, and they are not many. The unjust who are faithful, live by Grace. Being unjust in one's self means that, in order to be saved, one must be justified by the vicarious atonement of Jesus Christ. The nature of the resurrection of the just and unjust is a matter of confusion in Christianity, but what I have taught is true. The wicked are unjust, and they are not justified vicariously, and they are not saved, and they are not resurrected. They remain spiritually dead, and they die in their sins, then their mortal souls are judged, and if they have reached a sufficient depth of hell while alive, they will be denied transmigration when judged after death, and will suffer ages of ages of torment in the lake of fire, unto perdition, the final death of the soul.

It is better to abide. That is what I know to be true.
Be blessed, be well.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam
Yes, this is wonderful to me, there is a personal Manifestation;
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
Joh 10:35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

You can see below that His Manifestation is different from the second coming;

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

People dispute that there is a Manifestation, and they say that there is only the second coming.

KJV Prov29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

In my experience, and from anecdotal evidence, there are four night visions which are very relevant to Christian spiritual development. The Visions of the Spirit declare the Works of the Spirit in the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven, which in order are the seal of the Spirit, the Covering of the Spirit, the Infilling of the Spirit, and the Indwelling of the Spirit. Previous to being saved, one is spiritually dead, and there is the burning in house vision. After salvation, the four visions are the vision of being Anointed, the vision of the Father's Glory, the vision of Jesus in Glory, and the vision of the Beloved. The first vision is given with the Holy Spirit to all who are truly saved. However, if one does not advance, then the Anointing vision may not be remembered, lacking the context of the other visions, and may seem to be insignificant. The vision of Glory may not be immediately understood to be the back-side of the Father's countenance. You don't want to see the front-side of the Father's countenance, because that is death, and it is what happens just before perdition. So keep walking forwards in the ascending way of the soul and spirit. The next vision is the Manifestation of Jesus in Glory, which is what you have inquired about. To this end it is important to continue loving God and to keep the moral aspects of the Law, to at least accept and value it, and to know that God's will is what is best for you. For a Christian, His Manifestation is personal, and He is not veiled. For a faithful Jew or faithful Islamic, they see a veiled countenance in Glory, which is a persona which they believe to be their intermediary, Moses or Mohammad, but as there is a veil, they do not know that it is actually Jesus, through whom they are saved, by faith in the Father for faithful Jews, or by faith in the Power of the God of Abraham for faithful Islamics. The Power is the formless Spirit of God from which the Holy Spirit proceeds, through the Father, the Son, and into the created hierarchy. The fourth vision, of the Beloved, does not mean that it is certain, as the eventuality depends upon vagaries of will and circumstance. Therefore, there may be several occurrences of the vision of the Beloved, before "a twinkle of an eye" becomes more than a nocturnal emission of light from a distant star, to wish upon. Therefore, the fourth vision may indicate that the beginning of the Indwelling of the Spirit may soon begin, which is the personal concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical bodies. This is the only resurrection, except for rare miraculous physical resurrections. It is the resurrection of the just and the unjust. The just are faithful, and live by the Law. They can't be saved by Law alone, but by faith and Law. This is a hard way, and they are not many. The unjust who are faithful, live by Grace. Being unjust in one's self means that, in order to be saved, one must be justified by the vicarious atonement of Jesus Christ. The nature of the resurrection of the just and unjust is a matter of confusion in Christianity, but what I have taught is true. The wicked are unjust, and they are not justified vicariously, and they are not saved, and they are not resurrected. They remain spiritually dead, and they die in their sins, then their mortal souls are judged, and if they have reached a sufficient depth of hell while alive, they will be denied transmigration when judged after death, and will suffer ages of ages of torment in the lake of fire, unto perdition, the final death of the soul.

It is better to abide. That is what I know to be true.
Be blessed, be well.

Thank you for explaining that. Very thought provoking. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Terraphim]

As for the artist formerly known as 776, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and h-bombs. With the addition of a year zero, he would, indeed, be triple aught seven. That is, if also Nebuchadnezzer II actually began his rule in 606BC, making the date of the Dan2 vision during 604BC. However, Nebuchadnezzer II actually began his rule during 605BC, so that the second year of his reign was during 603BC. So, a double error ends up at the specified dates of the 1917 Balfour declaration and the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine, according to the methodology employed. That does not mean that the methodology is true. The primary error is in viewing the Rev11 42 months of the times of the gentiles/1260 days of the two witnesses as a sum which gives one week, when actually the 42/1260 values are concurrent. The times of the Gentiles are the same period of time during which the two witnesses testify. Then the first error was compounded by equating a supposed Rev11 week with Daniel's 70th week.

The 603BC date was for the Dan2 interpretation of Nebuchadnezzer's vision of the great image of the kingdoms of gold, silver, bronze, and iron/clay. These four kingdoms are further described as the four OT beasts, in Dan7&8.

However, when properly interpreting Daniel's 70 weeks, the Dan9 prophecy begins with;

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
Dan 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem is found from Ezra7:8;

Ezr 7:1 Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,

Ezr 7:7 Some of the children of Israel, the priests, the Levites, the singers, the gatekeepers, and the Nethinim came up to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.

Ezr 7:9 On the first day of the first month he began his journey from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Ezr 7:11 This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave Ezra the priest, the scribe, expert in the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of His statutes to Israel:

Ezr 7:24 Also we inform you that it shall not be lawful to impose tax, tribute, or custom on any of the priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers, Nethinim, or servants of this house of God.
Ezr 7:25 And you, Ezra, according to your God-given wisdom, set magistrates and judges who may judge all the people who are in the region beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and teach those who do not know them.
Ezr 7:26 Whoever will not observe the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily on him, whether it be death, or banishment, or confiscation of goods, or imprisonment.

Artaxerxes I began his rule in 465BC, and so the seventh year that he reigned was 458BC. This was the year of the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, and it was therefore the year which began Daniel's 70 weeks.

7+62+1=70 weeks
7+62=69 weeks
69*7=483 days

Eze 4:6 And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

483 days=483 years
458BC+483 years=483-458=25AD

So, from 458BC to 25AD is the period from "the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem" until Dan9:24 "anoint the Most Holy".

Luk 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED;
Luk 4:19 TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Continued in the next post.

 

[Terraphim]

Part 2

John the baptist (Mat3:11,12) knew that Jesus was the Messiah (the anointed one) previous to His arrival at Bethabara beyond the Jordan. "Then Jesus came... to be baptized by him. (v13)", "And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and you are coming to me? (v14)". Clearly, John knew that Jesus was the Messiah previous to His baptism. So, though the date of the anointing is not recorded, we can assert that it did occur 3.5 years before His baptism, in the year of 25AD. The anointing of the Holy Spirit Act10:38, and the anointing for His death Mark14:8,9, are not the same as the anointing of a king of Israel, in hiding, "as was supposed" Lk3:23.

The date of the baptism of Jesus was recorded, however;

Luk 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,

Luk 3:2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,

Tiberius began to rule in 14AD. The fifteenth year of his reign was in 29AD.

Following His baptism, Jesus went to Jerusalem to observe Passover;

Joh 2:20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

The reconstruction of the second temple was dedicated in 18BC, and it took 84 years to complete. Therefore, at the beginning of 29AD, 46 years had elapsed,

So, according to the Jewish sacred calendar, from the beginning of 25AD to mid 29AD, then mid 29AD to the beginning of 33AD is Daniel's 70th week, which is concluded by the crucifixion of Jesus. Daniel's 70th week follows after Daniel's 7+62 weeks;

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks [is the final week, ending when] the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself

In the middle of Daniel's 70th week, 3.5 years after the beginning of 25AD, in 29AD;

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

It was in the middle Daniel's 70th week, about 5 months after His baptism, that Jesus said;

Luk 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Thereby with this statement He concluded the Old Testament dispensation, which conclusion rendered the ceremonial law obsolete (Heb8:13), though not the moral law (Rom3:31). This Word, at the time that it was spoken, ended the necessity of sacrifice and offering to effect reconciliation with God, though His actual propitiation had not yet occurred in the physical world, as follows;

Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

Joh 19:29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

All things were now accomplished, with the completion of the fourth cup of Passover, which was of new wine that was still fermenting. That's because Jesus didn't have to wait until after His ascension to deliver His blood sacrifice to the heavenly Holy Place, because heaven is juxtaposed, not postponed.

Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

So, Daniel's 70th week concluded with the crucifixion of Jesus in 33AD. Otherwise, if the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week were postponed until the second half of an erroneously placed end-time great tribulation, then the covenant week would not now be complete, and so the gospel covenant would not be complete;

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week

The gospel covenant is complete, the great tribulation is the Diaspora during the times of the Gentiles, Daniel's 70th week concluded with the crucifixion, and the two witnesses are the two peoples who are true believers who bear witness to the personal Manifestation of Jesus, as He appears in Glory either veiled in persona, or with an express countenance. The 42 months of the times of the Gentiles, as well as the 1260 days of the two witnesses, are allegorical not literal. The 3.5 years that the two witnesses are dead is a rhetorical device used in reference to the base estate of spiritual death, and to set the stage for;

Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

This refers to the approximate length of time for the process of the personal concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body to occur, which is 3.5 literal years.

Further along, a proper interpretation of Daniel will bring one to 1122AD, which is the investiture controversy. However, I will not detail that now.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

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[for_his_glory]

Revelation 11

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as these witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations.

Zechariah 4 speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk among us, John 1:1-5.

John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who of faith have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those of faith who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament.

The Disciples were sent out to preach to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5, 6 and Paul to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, and so the same with these two witnesses throughout the generations as being two groups, one taking the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel and the other group taking the Gospel to the Gentiles until Christ returns. They will be persecuted to death as Jesus was and all the martyr's before them and their bodies will lay in the street for three and a half days and then the Spirit of life from God will enter them and they will be caught up to heaven in a cloud, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This will all occur during the seventh trumpet sounding as I believe all events during this time will happen quickly like 1 Corinthians 15:52 says in a twinkling of an eye we will all be changed and then caught up to Jesus during the seventh trumpet call.

 

[Terraphim]

A correction for post #13.

Next, the spirit body doesn't die, but can die; true. Eternal security is false.
The spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected when they were incarnate, the same as everyone except Jesus. They continued to live as spirits after their physical bodies were left behind, as all do.

Two points here.

First, the spirit body doesn't die unless the physical person's sins are excessive enough for the indwelling spirit body to be killed in the second death.

Second, the spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected when they were incarnate, which is the same process of resurrection that is available to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. That is everyone except Jesus, because He was never spiritually dead to begin with. His resurrection was a physical resurrection, and it was different from other rare miraculous physical resurrections, as with Him, His resurrection occurred because He was the sinless Son who was given of His Father the power to lay down His life, and to take it up again.

In the second instance, I did not mean to say that universal resurrection is true, as it is not true.

I have updated my statement of faith to the 2nd edition, which clarifies some important points.

May I always be blessed, and be well, Amen.