Who Was The God That Men Had Seen in the O.T.?

[jocor]

Don't recall that other than you saying "some" scriptures speak of Him with a citing from Moses as an example. That is not what Jesus said, "some scriptures." Scriptures mean all of them some way or another speak of Jesus. Paul attests to the identical principle, here:

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

I disagree. Paul persuaded them concerning aspects of the law of Moses and the prophets that referred to the Son (seed of the woman, prophet to come, Passover Lamb, Isaiah 53, Psalm 110:1, etc.).

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

Not everything in Scripture concerns the Son. There are many, many things written in the law and the prophets that have nothing to do with the Son.

Scriptures speak of Jesus. They are His Words, Speaking.

That is why Jesus is termed Living Word, the Word etc.

They are not his words. They are his Father's words (Hebrew 1:1). Where does Scripture call Yeshua the "Living Word"? He is called "the Word" because he not only kept the Father's words perfectly, but because the Father's word brought him into existence as a flesh and blood man.

Your belief makes the Father non-existent in the OT.

The Spirit of Christ not a Living Being? Surely you jest?

In OT times, no. In NT times, yes.

The Messiah has been with the lineage of Israel from their beginning.

I agree. If he came from David's loins, then he also came from Jacob's loins.

 

[Malachi]

Nothing is too hard for the Father.

To apply that to this subject is not really appropriate. While nothing is too hard for the Father, there are certain things that the Father has ordained regardless of how hard or how easy they are.

NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME refers to the Father. That is why it is always the Son (who is also God the Word) who "declares" or "reveals" the Father to men by appearing to them. In the OT He does not appear as Jesus but as the I AM. In the NT He appears as both Jesus and the I AM. He plainly declared "Before Abraham was I AM".

 

[Douglas Summers]

Father YHWH is communicating through the David in Psalm 110:1 as He speaks to His Son:

"The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
​

It is a major assumption to say the Son did all the speaking in the OT. Hebrews 1:1 clearly refers to the Father speaking through the prophets, not the Son speaking through the prophets.

​

If the glory of the Son is the same glory as the Father, how is it that men could not look upon the Father, but they could upon the Son? The Father used lesser beings (angels) to speak to men so they would not die. How come they didn't die when they looked on the Son who you say is part of the "Godhead" and the exact representation of the Father?

If the glory of the Son is the same glory as the Father, how is it that men could not look upon the Father, but they could upon the Son? The Father used lesser beings (angels) to speak to men so they would not die. How come they didn't die when they looked on the Son who you say is part of the "Godhead" and the exact representation of the Father?

They could not look upon the Glory of Christ before His incarnation. The name (singular) (not names) of God is Father Son, and Holy Ghost, That is His (God's) name. All the OT names used of "The God" show His Deity. In some of the OT passages, the names seem equivalent to Father and Son. Compare (Psalms 2:2) with (Acts 4:26-27). In the NT the word Lord used of the Christ involves all the attributes and names of the LORD in the OT. In the (110:1 Psalms) David was revealed the ascension of the Lord. The LORD (God of the OT in Scripture) will bring about His finished work as Lord in the New Covenant. (John 1:1-5; 10-14)

 

[ChristDependent]

Nothing is too hard for the Father. The Father opened Sarah's womb so His Son could come through Isaac.

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;....10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him....13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

It was the Lord that appeared unto Abraham and it was the Lord asking a question about the limit of deity. This was the same Lord that Abraham saw in His day.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The Jews understood Him of His claim to be God as John the apostle did too below.

John 1:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.....14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Everything that was made, was made by the Son. That includes the children from the womb.

Psalm 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

If you ever wondered about the darkness at Jesus's crucifixion when He was separated from the Father for having taken our sins upon Himself, that was when the Light of the world went out as this action was "seen" in all His creation by the absence of light in creation.

http://creation.com/darkness-at-the-crucifixion-metaphor-or-real-history

Not only was there a full moon that day, but its light was absence as well. I don't think the majority of believers are grasping the "scariness" of Him becoming sin for us so that we may be made the righteousness of God in Him in how that act separated Him from the Father momentarily.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So once again, the Word is the Light that brought every man into the world.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[jocor]

To apply that to this subject is not really appropriate. While nothing is too hard for the Father, there are certain things that the Father has ordained regardless of how hard or how easy they are.

The subject was giving Sarah and Abraham a son. Therefore, it is inappropriate to apply that to the Son since nowhere in the OT does it say such a thing. However, we are told the following;

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD (YHWH)? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
​

YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2:2,7).

​

NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME refers to the Father. That is why it is always the Son (who is also God the Word) who "declares" or "reveals" the Father to men by appearing to them.

If the Son is no different from the Father, why didn't people die when they looked upon him? My answer is that they were not looking upon the Son, but upon an angel. The Son was never an angel. I do not read the Son into texts unless there is crucial information to do so.

In the OT He does not appear as Jesus but as the I AM. In the NT He appears as both Jesus and the I AM. He plainly declared "Before Abraham was I AM".

Sorry, but Yeshua was not declaring himself to be the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. If you check the context, Exodus 3:6 reads;

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."
​

Who is this God?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (Yeshua); whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

The God of Exodus 3:6 is Yeshua's Father. The ensuing context says the same;

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (YHWH) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
​

 

[jocor]

They could not look upon the Glory of Christ before His incarnation.

Yet, some here believe they did.

The name (singular) (not names) of God is Father Son, and Holy Ghost, That is His (God's) name.

Let's compare your words with Scripture:

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD (YHWH): that is my name (singular): and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Psa 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name (singular) alone is JEHOVAH (YHWH/YAHWEH), art the most high over all the earth. ​

All the OT names used of "The God" show His Deity. In some of the OT passages, the names seem equivalent to Father and Son. Compare (Psalms 2:2) with (Acts 4:26-27).

I compared them. Psalm 2 says the Father's name is "YHWH". Acts 4:26 uses the man made substitute "the Lord" in place of "YHWH". Both use "Christ" as a title referring to the Son.

In the NT the word Lord used of the Christ involves all the attributes and names of the LORD in the OT.

How can that be when one word, "Lord" (kurios), is a title meaning "supreme in authority" and can refer to men, but the other word, "LORD" (YHWH), is a name, not a title, meaning "self-existent" and cannot refer to men?

In the (110:1 Psalms) David was revealed the ascension of the Lord. The LORD (God of the OT in Scripture) will bring about His finished work as Lord in the New Covenant. (John 1:1-5; 10-14)

The God of the OT will bring about His finished work in the New Covenant through His Son:

John 3:16 For God (Father YHWH) so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ​

The God of the OT did not give Himself, but His only begotten Son.

 

[jocor]

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;....10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him....13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

It was the Lord that appeared unto Abraham and it was the Lord asking a question about the limit of deity. This was the same Lord that Abraham saw in His day.

First, you are supposed to cite your Bible version if you are not using the KJV which uses "the LORD", not "the Lord".
Second, when you use "the Lord", it is not clear whether you mean the Father or the Son. Why don't you say, "It was the Son that appeared ..." ?

John 8:56 does NOT say Abraham saw the Son in his day. It says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day (not, "me"): and he saw it (not, "me". BTW, "it" should be in italics since it is not in the Greek), and was glad"

 

[ChristDependent]

First, you are supposed to cite your Bible version if you are not using the KJV which uses "the LORD", not "the Lord".

I am using the KJV. Here's the link to prove it. There is no difference in the presentation of the KJV nor the AKJV.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 18&version=KJV;AKJV

Second, when you use "the Lord", it is not clear whether you mean the Father or the Son. Why don't you say, "It was the Son that appeared ..." ?

In light of the other scripture which you had quoted below.

John 8:56 does NOT say Abraham saw the Son in his day. It says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day (not, "me"): and he saw it (not, "me". BTW, "it" should be in italics since it is not in the Greek), and was glad"

Reads to me that the Jews understood Him quite well.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

See that question? So verse 56 means to see His day is to see Him. Jesus replied confirming it by citing His deity.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The Jews understood His claim to deity as well.

 

[Douglas Summers]

How can that be when one word, "Lord" (kurios), is a title meaning "supreme in authority" and can refer to men, but the other word, "LORD" (YHWH), is a name, not a title, meaning "self-existent" and cannot refer to men?

The God of the OT will bring about His finished work in the New Covenant through His Son:

John 3:16 For God (Father YHWH) so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The God of the OT did not give Himself, but His only begotten Son.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is The name of God (singular), It is not the name of persons (plural). Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is God's Deity. All the OT names of God (El, Elah, Elohim, Jehovah, Adon or Adonai, El Shaddai, El Elyon, El Olam, Jehovah Elohim, Adonai Jehovah, Jehovah Sabaoth. These OT Scripture names of God reveal His Being, personality and attributes which are all met in Christ. The Christ has powers over the elements, over His Being, over death and life. He is merciful, gracious, Judge,can destroy, forgives sin, raises the dead and can create out of nothing things that are or will be. In (Gen. 1:26-27) God is a plural noun (God, We, Our) In His Own Image, (The Image of God)

 

[smaller]

I disagree. Paul persuaded them concerning aspects of the law of Moses and the prophets that referred to the Son (seed of the woman, prophet to come, Passover Lamb, Isaiah 53, Psalm 110:1, etc.).

Paul taught them Jesus from the scriptures, just as stated. Not "aspects" but Jesus, GOD with us.

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Peter says the spirit of Christ was in the prophets. You say no, it was not the spirit of Christ. 1 Peter 1:11-12

Paul taught Jesus out of the law and the prophets. You say no, it was aspects.

It is the spirit of Christ Jesus that dwells in believers. It is the SAME spirit of Christ who INdwelt the prophets.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Not everything in Scripture concerns the Son. There are many, many things written in the law and the prophets that have nothing to do with the Son.

No so my friend. Every jot and tittle speaks of Him, His Ways, His Workings, which are multifold in spiritual nature.

They are not his words. They are his Father's words (Hebrew 1:1). Where does Scripture call Yeshua the "Living Word"? He is called "the Word" because he not only kept the Father's words perfectly, but because the Father's word brought him into existence as a flesh and blood man.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Your belief makes the Father non-existent in the OT.

God, our Father, speaks Himself through His Image, His Son, His Word, His Expression:

Jesus.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[WIP]

I am using the KJV. Here's the link to prove it. There is no difference in the presentation of the KJV nor the AKJV.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 18&version=KJV;AKJV

I think the question is in the spelling of "Lord." In the original post where you linked to Genesis 18:1 the text you quoted spelled it this way, Lord, with the first letter capitalized and the rest in lower case. The KJV uses LORD with all the letters capitalized. I checked the link to Genesis 18 that you provided and it does in fact reference the KJV. The link in the above quote also uses LORD. When you wrote your original post did you by chance write out the text and inadvertently used the lower case letters?

 

[ChristDependent]

I think the question is in the spelling of "Lord." In the original post where you linked to Genesis 18:1 the text you quoted spelled it this way, Lord, with the first letter capitalized and the rest in lower case. The KJV uses LORD with all the letters capitalized. I checked the link to Genesis 18 that you provided and it does in fact reference the KJV. The link in the above quote also uses LORD. When you wrote your original post did you by chance write out the text and inadvertently used the lower case letters?

I see. No. I copied and paste it from Bible Gateway and apparently, the capitalization was lost in transit by however the computer pasted it even though that was not copied that way.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Paul taught them Jesus from the scriptures, just as stated. Not "aspects" but Jesus, GOD with us.

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Peter says the spirit of Christ was in the prophets. You say no, it was not the spirit of Christ. 1 Peter 1:11-12

Paul taught Jesus out of the law and the prophets. You say no, it was aspects.

It is the spirit of Christ Jesus that dwells in believers. It is the SAME spirit of Christ who INdwelt the prophets.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,



No so my friend. Every jot and tittle speaks of Him, His Ways, His Workings, which are multifold in spiritual nature.



Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God, our Father, speaks Himself through His Image, His Son, His Word, His Expression:

Jesus.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Good lesson.

 

[jocor]

Reads to me that the Jews understood Him quite well.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

See that question? So verse 56 means to see His day is to see Him. Jesus replied confirming it by citing His deity.

Do not blindly believe what the Jews said. They were always misunderstanding Yeshua's words. He never said he saw Abraham.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The Jews understood His claim to deity as well.

See post #25 concerning "I AM".

 

[ChristDependent]

Do not blindly believe what the Jews said. They were always misunderstanding Yeshua's words. He never said he saw Abraham.

See post #25 concerning "I AM".

We are to take everything to Him for confirmation; and I believe He was there for Him to claim it as His day.

 

[jocor]

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is The name of God (singular),

These are not names. They are titles and they do not comprise one name.

In (Gen. 1:26-27) God is a plural noun (God, We, Our) In His Own Image, (The Image of God)

It is a plural noun used in a singular sense whenever it is used of the one true Elohim. That is why it is always used with singular pronouns when referring to Him as in verse 27.

 

[ChristDependent]

The subject was giving Sarah and Abraham a son. Therefore, it is inappropriate to apply that to the Son since nowhere in the OT does it say such a thing. However, we are told the following;

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD (YHWH)? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
​

YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2:2,7).

​

If the Son is no different from the Father, why didn't people die when they looked upon him? My answer is that they were not looking upon the Son, but upon an angel. The Son was never an angel. I do not read the Son into texts unless there is crucial information to do so.


Sorry, but Yeshua was not declaring himself to be the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. If you check the context, Exodus 3:6 reads;

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."
​

Who is this God?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (Yeshua); whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

The God of Exodus 3:6 is Yeshua's Father. The ensuing context says the same;

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (YHWH) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
​

John 1:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.....14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Everything that was made, was made by the Son. That includes the children from the womb.

 

[jocor]

We are to take everything to Him for confirmation; and I believe He was there for Him to claim it as His day.

You want verse 56 to read, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see me: and he saw me and I saw him, and was glad."

Sorry, but I have this thing about reading stuff into the text and twisting it to say what I want it to say. He never said he saw Abraham.

 

[jocor]

Paul taught them Jesus from the scriptures, just as stated. Not "aspects" but Jesus, GOD with us.

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Peter says the spirit of Christ was in the prophets. You say no, it was not the spirit of Christ. 1 Peter 1:11-12

Paul taught Jesus out of the law and the prophets. You say no, it was aspects.

You know full well what I meant. I did not mean Yeshua was an aspect. The Passover lamb was an aspect of the law that referred to Yeshua.

It is the spirit of Christ Jesus that dwells in believers. It is the SAME spirit of Christ who INdwelt the prophets.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The living God is Yeshua's Father. The Spirit of Father Yahweh was in Messiah as he wrote his epistle on the hearts of believers.

 

[jocor]

John 1:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.....14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Everything that was made, was made by the Son. That includes the children from the womb.

WIP,

Do I have permission to address this post?