Who Was The God That Men Had Seen in the O.T.?

[ChristDependent]

The subject was giving Sarah and Abraham a son. Therefore, it is inappropriate to apply that to the Son since nowhere in the OT does it say such a thing. However, we are told the following;

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD (YHWH)? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
​

YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2:2,7).

The LORD speaking said Sarah shall have a son. He did not say the LORD said that Sarah shall have a son. He said said Himself that Sarah shall have a son.

Genesis 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

The LORD can speak of Himself in a Third Person.

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

So here we have Jesus speaking. He is talking about the Son of man. Is there another Son of man? No. So that is how I see the LORD here in Genesis 18 as the Son speaking here and He is the One by whom all things come into this world BY.

​

If the Son is no different from the Father, why didn't people die when they looked upon him? My answer is that they were not looking upon the Son, but upon an angel. The Son was never an angel. I do not read the Son into texts unless there is crucial information to do so.

When Moses made the request to see the Lord "in all His glory", it was only then that he was not allowed to look on His face, and this had to be done by the Lord passing by Moses. That was the Son of God.

Sorry, but Yeshua was not declaring himself to be the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. If you check the context, Exodus 3:6 reads;

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."
​

Who is this God?

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (Yeshua); whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

The God of Exodus 3:6 is Yeshua's Father. The ensuing context says the same;

For God's witness to be true of the Son, there has to be two other Witnesses; therefore in Acts 3:13 the reference to the Triune God was being done here in respect to His word for bearing a true witness.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

This is why God the Father spoke from Heaven and the Holy Spirit lighted on Jesus at His water baptism.

Matthew 3:5 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

What Jesus was talking about in Matthew 3:15 was the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

So you have the LORD speaking and yet the Lord GOD and His Spirit sent Him. Did you note how LORD can only apply to Jesus?

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (YHWH) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
​

The Hebrew word 'elohiym from which God was translated from is defined as...

"plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty."

So that is the Triune God speaking here Who I believe was the Word of God speaking for the Triune God.

 

[ChristDependent]

You want verse 56 to read, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see me: and he saw me and I saw him, and was glad."

Sorry, but I have this thing about reading stuff into the text and twisting it to say what I want it to say. He never said he saw Abraham.

How about the flip side of that? He never corrected the Jews by saying, "That is not what I had meant."

No. He went further back by saying He was the I AM.

Jesus is the God that men had seen in the O.T. This is what Jesus testified of Moses writing about HIM.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life......46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Douglas Summers]

These are not names. They are titles and they do not comprise one name.


It is a plural noun used in a singular sense whenever it is used of the one true Elohim. That is why it is always used with singular pronouns when referring to Him as in verse 27.

Jacob, That is the only God I know, and His mercy is upon me by his Grace. I wish you knew Him personally, and not just a study of the etymology of His name. Your profile says you are not a Christian, but are you a believer in the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ?

 

[jocor]

The LORD speaking said Sarah shall have a son. He did not say the LORD said that Sarah shall have a son. He said said Himself that Sarah shall have a son.

Genesis 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

The LORD can speak of Himself in a Third Person.

That is not the issue. The issue is that you believe "the LORD" refers to the Son and I believe it refers to the Father. You have no grounds to say it is the Son. You can only assume that. There is only one YHWH in Scripture, the Father.

1. "Now therefore, O YHWH our Mighty One, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH Elohim, even thou only" (II Kgs.19:19 )
2. "Thou, even thou art YHWH alone; . . ." ( Ne.9:6 )
3. "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is YHWH, art the most high over all the earth" ( Ps.83:18 )
4. " . . .that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH, even thou only" (Isa.37:20 )
5. "I am YHWH, and there is none else . . ." (Isa.45:5 )
6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else" ( Isa.45:6 )
7. "For thus saith YHWH that created the heavens; . . .I am YHWH; and there is none else" (Isa.45:18 )
8. "Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Mighty One is one YHWH" ( De.6:4 )​

Since Psalm 2:2,7 clearly teach us the Father is YHWH, then He is the only YHWH, not the Son.

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

When Moses made the request to see the Lord "in all His glory", it was only then that he was not allowed to look on His face, and this had to be done by the Lord passing by Moses. That was the Son of God.

Oy vey!

For God's witness to be true of the Son, there has to be two other Witnesses; therefore in Acts 3:13 the reference to the Triune God was being done here in respect to His word for bearing a true witness.

Huh?

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

This is why God the Father spoke from Heaven and the Holy Spirit lighted on Jesus at His water baptism.

Matthew 3:5 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

What Jesus was talking about in Matthew 3:15 was the fulfillment of this prophecy.

I have no idea what you are trying to teach me.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

So you have the LORD speaking and yet the Lord GOD and His Spirit sent Him. Did you note how LORD can only apply to Jesus?

No, I did not note that. The verse is not clear as to who is speaking when. Verse 16 can be Isaiah speaking since YHWH sent him back in chapter 6 to speak forth His words. Several commentators believe it is referring to Cyrus. Others believe the sent one is Messiah, but I don't know of any that believe the sender is Messiah.

The Hebrew word 'elohiym from which God was translated from is defined as...

"plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty."

So that is the Triune God speaking here Who I believe was the Word of God speaking for the Triune God.

Well, I certainly can't force you to believe the truth. If you choose to read the Son into every OT text that uses "YHWH", that is your choice. Hopefully, the eight verses I quoted above will help you to see your error.[/QUOTE]

 

[jocor]

Jacob, That is the only God I know, and His mercy is upon me by his Grace. I wish you knew Him personally, and not just a study of the etymology of His name. Your profile says you are not a Christian, but are you a believer in the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ?

Its "jocor", not "Jacob". The only God I know is Yeshua's Father as he himself taught me in John 17:3. I do know Him personally and I know His Son personally as well. I know two beings, not one. His Son is my elohim and my theos, but he is not my "God" as that word with a capital "G" can only apply to the "only true God" of John 17:3.

 

[Douglas Summers]

These are not names. They are titles and they do not comprise one name.
Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not names (plural) But the name (singular) of God.


It is a plural noun used in a singular sense whenever it is used of the one true Elohim. That is why it is always used with singular pronouns when referring to Him as in verse 27.

Yes, .That is what a plural noun is.

 

[jocor]

Yes, .That is what a plural noun is.

When a plural (collective) noun is used in a singular sense it requires a singular pronoun, but when used in a plural sense it requires a plural pronoun. http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/collectivenoun.htm

When used of God, "Elohim" is always used with singular pronouns.

Gen 1:27 And God (Elohim) made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them.
​

For this verse to teach us that "Elohim" is a plurality of beings, it would read,

Gen 1:27 And God (Elohim) made man, according to the image of God they made him, male and female they made them.​

 

[WIP]

Its "jocor", not "Jacob". The only God I know is Yeshua's Father as he himself taught me in John 17:3. I do know Him personally and I know His Son personally as well. I know two beings, not one. His Son is my elohim and my theos, but he is not my "God" as that word with a capital "G" can only apply to the "only true God" of John 17:3.

So are you saying you worship two gods? The Father and the Son?

 

[ChristDependent]

That is not the issue. The issue is that you believe "the LORD" refers to the Son and I believe it refers to the Father. You have no grounds to say it is the Son. You can only assume that. There is only one YHWH in Scripture, the Father.

The problem you have is that scripture does not totally agree with you.

Jesus testified that no man has seen God the Father at any time, He did.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So obviously, not every scripture in the O.T. pertains LORD to the Father only since Abraham saw the LORD that day in speaking to him about Sarah having a son soon.

Since Psalm 2:2,7 clearly teach us the Father is YHWH, then He is the only YHWH, not the Son.

Clearly, but obviously NOT ALL THE TIME. Indeed, the najority of the time when men were seing God face to face, it was the preincarnate Lord Jesus Christ.

Oy vey!

Not sure what that meant in response to the quote of mine. Whatever.

Huh?

I have no idea what you are trying to teach me.

How God established a word in creation and how God judges requires in according to His word, two more Witnesses as He requires this from man in establishing a word or judging any one. One Person cannot judge. Judgment from the Triune God requires two more Witnesses.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

That was how God established a word in creation by the Word. Now this is how God judges.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So the Father is God but He judges no man. So how does God judge man?

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Something to think about as scripture testify of the Son so sinners can come to the Son for life in coming to God the Father by.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus testified that Moses had written of "Me" as in Jesus Himself. So where is this testimony by Moses in the scripture? Moses did not write the Psalms. So where is it?

So the God men had seen was indeed Jesus. :amen

No, I did not note that. The verse is not clear as to who is speaking when. Verse 16 can be Isaiah speaking since YHWH sent him back in chapter 6 to speak forth His words. Several commentators believe it is referring to Cyrus. Others believe the sent one is Messiah, but I don't know of any that believe the sender is Messiah.

You should have asked Him at that throne of grace for that discernment. No man can confirm the truth to you in His words except Him. Here's something you can confirm with Him as scripture testify that this was not Cyrus because Cyrus did not know God at all.

Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

Here, the LORD is speaking through Isaiah testifying that He has appointed Cyrus even though Cyrus did not know Him so that Israel knows that He is the God of every one that lives on the earth.

History has testified that Cyrus acknowledged the God of Israel but called Him by another name, and yet all the while, Cyrus still worshiped other gods. So that is not Cyrus speaking in Isaiah 48:16-17.

Well, I certainly can't force you to believe the truth. If you choose to read the Son into every OT text that uses "YHWH", that is your choice. Hopefully, the eight verses I quoted above will help you to see your error.

I acknowledge Psalm 2:2,7 in proving your point that LORD can be applied to the Father in the scripture in the O.T., but you have yet to acknowledge the scripture proving my point that the same LORD can also be applied to the Son as it can only apply to the Son as the God that men had seen.:amen

Of course, the LORD can also be applied to the Triune God as a whole sometimes and not to a specific Person of the Triune God as well, depending on the use of LORD in the scripture.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Its "jocor", not "Jacob". The only God I know is Yeshua's Father as he himself taught me in John 17:3. I do know Him personally and I know His Son personally as well. I know two beings, not one. His Son is my elohim and my theos, but he is not my "God" as that word with a capital "G" can only apply to the "only true God" of John 17:3.

Here is how I understand the Godhead (deity or Divine Nature). The existence of all life upon the earth comes from the SUN. The extension of the SUN are it's RAY's. The RAY's that ascend upon the earth brings LIGHT and LIFE to all who do not hide from it. And when the RAY's of the SUN that ascended upon creation, RADIATES and gives warmth, nourishment and growth to the object upon whom it touches. Without the SUN the RAY's and the RADIATION do not exist.

When the SUN was created, it already had the RAY's and RADIATION in it. Father Son and Holy Spirit is the Godhead or deity of God. One is not separate of the other........"One God" That made us in their image.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Oy veh is a Yiddish or Jewish interjection meaning: EXASPERATION, DISMAY OR WOE. I have heard oy veh used also as an expression of FRUSTRATION.

 

[jocor]

So are you saying you worship two gods? The Father and the Son?

No. Our English words "God" and "god" do not carry the same meaning or usage as "elohim" and "theos". Also, I don't "worship" Yeshua as the one true God, but I pay homage to him as the "Son of God (Son of YHWH)" who was and is an "elohim".

Our English word "worship" comes from the Hebrew "shachah" meaning "to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God)" and from the Greek word "proskuneo" meaning "to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand)", (both Strong's definitions). Both words can be used in reference to the "worship" of Yahweh (Ex 34:14; Mt 4:10) or to bowing down in homage, even to men (Gen 23:12; Ex 18:7; Rev 3:9). Since Yeshua himself said his Father is the "only true God" (John 17:3), then we are not to give the Son the same kind of "shachah" or "proskuneo" we give to his Father who is greater than the Son (John 13:16; 14:28; 15:20; 1Co 11:3) . We are to give him homage as royalty (God's Son, Messiah, King, High Priest, etc.).

 

[jocor]

The problem you have is that scripture does not totally agree with you.

Jesus testified that no man has seen God the Father at any time, He did.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So obviously, not every scripture in the O.T. pertains LORD to the Father only since Abraham saw the LORD that day in speaking to him about Sarah having a son soon.



Clearly, but obviously NOT ALL THE TIME. Indeed, the najority of the time when men were seing God face to face, it was the preincarnate Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree that no man has seen the Father, but you assume they were seeing the "preincarnate Lord Jesus". You read him into the text. Most of those accounts tell us it was an angel.

Not sure what that meant in response to the quote of mine. Whatever.

An exclamation of frustration and disbelief that you believe Moses saw the Son of God pass by in the cleft of the rock.

How God established a word in creation and how God judges requires in according to His word, two more Witnesses as He requires this from man in establishing a word or judging any one. One Person cannot judge. Judgment from the Triune God requires two more Witnesses.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

That was how God established a word in creation by the Word. Now this is how God judges.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

I understand all that, but not how you are applying it.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So the Father is God but He judges no man. So how does God judge man?

He judges through His Son whom He appointed as judge. So ...?

 

[jocor]

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Something to think about as scripture testify of the Son so sinners can come to the Son for life in coming to God the Father by.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus testified that Moses had written of "Me" as in Jesus Himself. So where is this testimony by Moses in the scripture? Moses did not write the Psalms. So where is it?

So the God men had seen was indeed Jesus. :amen

Off the top of my head, Moses wrote of the Son in Gen 3:15; 49:8; and Deut 18:15-19. He also wrote of him via shadows and types (the Passover Lamb, the wave sheaf, the atoning sacrifices, the unleavened grain offerings, the high priest, the rock Moses struck, the brazen serpent, the life of Joseph as it parallels the life of Yeshua and many others).

I acknowledge Psalm 2:2,7 in proving your point that LORD can be applied to the Father in the scripture in the O.T., but you have yet to acknowledge the scripture proving my point that the same LORD can also be applied to the Son as it can only apply to the Son as the God that men had seen.:amen

I addressed your belief that "the LORD" can apply to the Son by giving you eight verses stating that there is only one YHWH (LORD). You have not addressed those verses.

 

[jocor]

Here is how I understand the Godhead (deity or Divine Nature). The existence of all life upon the earth comes from the SUN. The extension of the SUN are it's RAY's. The RAY's that ascend upon the earth brings LIGHT and LIFE to all who do not hide from it. And when the RAY's of the SUN that ascended upon creation, RADIATES and gives warmth, nourishment and growth to the object upon whom it touches. Without the SUN the RAY's and the RADIATION do not exist.

When the SUN was created, it already had the RAY's and RADIATION in it. Father Son and Holy Spirit is the Godhead or deity of God. One is not separate of the other........"One God" That made us in their image.

Your primary premise is wrong. You said, "The existence of all life upon the earth comes from the SUN." I disagree. The existence of all life upon the earth comes from Yahweh. If Yahweh so willed it, we can live happily ever after without the Sun.

Here is how I understand the only true Elohim. The account of Joseph and Pharaoh is a type. Yeshua and Yahweh are the anti-type. Pharaoh was the ultimate ruler of Egypt. Yahweh is the ultimate ruler of the universe (John 17:3). Pharaoh appointed Joseph as his second in command and gave him full authority over all Egypt, but not over himself. Yahweh made His Son second in command and gave His Son full authority over all, but not over Himself (1Co 15:27). Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of saving Egypt. Yahweh put Yeshua in charge of saving the world (John 3:16). Joseph never attained equality with Pharaoh. Yeshua will never attain equality with his Father Yahweh (1Co 15:27-28).

 

[ChristDependent]

I agree that no man has seen the Father, but you assume they were seeing the "preincarnate Lord Jesus". You read him into the text. Most of those accounts tell us it was an angel.

Let's go back to that account. You said that it was the Father in that account, but it could not have been because no man has seen the Father. You can't go back and forth saying that was an angel, because of those other accounts.

An exclamation of frustration and disbelief that you believe Moses saw the Son of God pass by in the cleft of the rock.

Then the Oy vey! should have been applied to what you were claiming since no man has seen God the Father at any time. Correct? It could only have been the Son of God.

I understand all that, but not how you are applying it.

Well, only the Lord can confirm it to you.

He judges through His Son whom He appointed as judge. So ...?

In all these places below, is LORD the YHWH that you ascribe to as being that Judge?

Ezekiel 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 11:10 Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 35:11 Therefore, as I live, saith the LORD GOD, I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.

See my point? Whenever the Triune God judges in agreement, it is the Son that speaks for the Triune God and He is the One that judges; just as He is the Creator.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

See the next verse?

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It was the Word that spoke to Abraham that brought Isaac into the world by saying that Sara will have a son.

 

[ChristDependent]

Off the top of my head, Moses wrote of the Son in Gen 3:15; 49:8; and Deut 18:15-19. He also wrote of him via shadows and types (the Passover Lamb, the wave sheaf, the atoning sacrifices, the unleavened grain offerings, the high priest, the rock Moses struck, the brazen serpent, the life of Joseph as it parallels the life of Yeshua and many others).

I believe Moses wrote more of Him than that.

I addressed your belief that "the LORD" can apply to the Son by giving you eight verses stating that there is only one YHWH (LORD). You have not addressed those verses.

Are you saying that those verses testify of the Son? The I agree.

But I had quoted you saying this instead before those eight verses; thus applying otherwise.

That is not the issue. The issue is that you believe "the LORD" refers to the Son and I believe it refers to the Father. You have no grounds to say it is the Son. You can only assume that. There is only one YHWH in Scripture, the Father.

1. "Now therefore, O YHWH our Mighty One, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH Elohim, even thou only" (II Kgs.19:19 )
2. "Thou, even thou art YHWH alone; . . ." ( Ne.9:6 )
3. "That men may know that thou, whose name aloneis YHWH, art the most high over all the earth" ( Ps.83:18 )
4. " . . .that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH, even thou only" (Isa.37:20 )
5. "I am YHWH, and there isnone else . . ." (Isa.45:5 )
6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there isnone else" ( Isa.45:6 )
7. "For thus saith YHWH that created the heavens; . . .I am YHWH; and there isnone else" (Isa.45:18 )
8. "Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Mighty One is one YHWH" ( De.6:4 )

Why do I believe it is the Son? I point to #7 ...the YHWH that created the heavens...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[jocor]

Let's go back to that account. You said that it was the Father in that account, but it could not have been because no man has seen the Father. You can't go back and forth saying that was an angel, because of those other accounts.



Then the Oy vey! should have been applied to what you were claiming since no man has seen God the Father at any time. Correct? It could only have been the Son of God.

I don't recall ever saying they saw the Father. I specifically said it was an angel. Please read my posts more carefully. "LORD" (YHWH) refers to the Father, but His name can be spoken of in the first person by an angel based on the "Law of Agency". All supposed theophanies are angels representing YHWH.

In all these places below, is LORD the YHWH that you ascribe to as being that Judge?

Ezekiel 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 11:10 Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 35:11 Therefore, as I live, saith the LORD GOD, I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.

See my point? Whenever the Triune God judges in agreement, it is the Son that speaks for the Triune God and He is the One that judges; just as He is the Creator.

Yes, they all refer to Father YHWH judging. That is because His Son was not yet given all authority including judging. That authority was given to the man, Messiah Yeshua, not a preexistent spirit being. However, even after the Son received that authority, it was ultimately the Father who judges THROUGH the Son;

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God (Father YHWH) will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua).
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. NASB

​

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

See the next verse?

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It was the Word that spoke to Abraham that brought Isaac into the world by saying that Sara will have a son.

I usually get in trouble with moderators when I address John 1 because my beliefs are against the SoF. If you want to discuss that chapter privately, start a conversation with me.

 

[jocor]

I believe Moses wrote more of Him than that.

So do I which is why I wrote, "and many others".

Are you saying that those verses testify of the Son? The I agree.

But I had quoted you saying this instead before those eight verses; thus applying otherwise.

No. You read my statement wrong. Perhaps my statement was ambiguous. I wrote;

I addressed your belief that "the LORD" can apply to the Son by giving you eight verses stating that there is only one YHWH (LORD). You have not addressed those verses.​

The bold is your belief. The blue is my belief.

1. "Now therefore, O YHWH our Mighty One, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH Elohim, even thou only" (II Kgs.19:19 )
2. "Thou, even thou art YHWH alone; . . ." ( Ne.9:6 )
3. "That men may know that thou, whose name aloneis YHWH, art the most high over all the earth" ( Ps.83:18 )
4. " . . .that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH, even thou only" (Isa.37:20 )
5. "I am YHWH, and there isnone else . . ." (Isa.45:5 )
6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there isnone else" ( Isa.45:6 )
7. "For thus saith YHWH that created the heavens; . . .I am YHWH; and there isnone else" (Isa.45:18 )
8. "Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Mighty One is one YHWH" ( De.6:4 )

Why do I believe it is the Son? I point to #7 ...the YHWH that created the heavens...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Again, we can discuss John 1 privately unless a moderator gives me permission to answer you publicly. Suffice it to say that Yeshua said "God" (referring to his Father) created men and women (Mark 10:5-6; 13:19).

If you choose to believe the "YHWH" of Isa 45:18 refers to the Son, then that means the Father is not "YHWH" since there is no other YHWH. Yet, trinitarians believe the Father and the Son are two separate persons. Therefore, you must have two separate YHWHs. That contradicts these 8 verses I cited.

 

[ChristDependent]

I don't recall ever saying they saw the Father. I specifically said it was an angel. Please read my posts more carefully. "LORD" (YHWH) refers to the Father, but His name can be spoken of in the first person by an angel based on the "Law of Agency". All supposed theophanies are angels representing YHWH.

Yes, they all refer to Father YHWH judging. That is because His Son was not yet given all authority including judging. That authority was given to the man, Messiah Yeshua, not a preexistent spirit being. However, even after the Son received that authority, it was ultimately the Father who judges THROUGH the Son;

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God (Father YHWH) will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua).
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. NASB​

I usually get in trouble with moderators when I address John 1 because my beliefs are against the SoF. If you want to discuss that chapter privately, start a conversation with me.

Well, that explains it.

You want me to take scripture literally as you want me to take them in the O.T., but not in the N.T. ? That usually comes to an impasse in any discussion. No thanks. I'll pass.

I agree that we disagree, and leave it at that.