Who Was The God That Men Had Seen in the O.T.?

[jocor]

Well, that explains it.

You want me to take scripture literally as you want me to take them in the O.T., but not in the N.T. ? That usually comes to an impasse in any discussion. No thanks. I'll pass.

I agree that we disagree, and leave it at that.

I don't know what you are referring to. What do I want you to take literally in the OT, but not in the NT?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Your primary premise is wrong. You said, "The existence of all life upon the earth comes from the SUN." I disagree. The existence of all life upon the earth comes from Yahweh. If Yahweh so willed it, we can live happily ever after without the Sun.

Here is how I understand the only true Elohim. The account of Joseph and Pharaoh is a type. Yeshua and Yahweh are the anti-type. Pharaoh was the ultimate ruler of Egypt. Yahweh is the ultimate ruler of the universe (John 17:3). Pharaoh appointed Joseph as his second in command and gave him full authority over all Egypt, but not over himself. Yahweh made His Son second in command and gave His Son full authority over all, but not over Himself (1Co 15:27). Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of saving Egypt. Yahweh put Yeshua in charge of saving the world (John 3:16). Joseph never attained equality with Pharaoh. Yeshua will never attain equality with his Father Yahweh (1Co 15:27-28).

You missed the point. God created all things that are and things not seen. He created the SUN to give life to all organic existence. Without the SUN photosynthesis is not possible. Do you believe the Gospel of God that Christ came to confirm the promises He made unto the fathers (Patriarchs)? And that the Gentile would receive the benefits of those promises also? (Rom. 15:8-13) Who will be saved? Those who know how to pronounce His name and the correct etymology, or those who recognize and receive Him by His works? (John 10:37-38) And you are correct, one day we will live life without the SUN, and that light will be the LIGHT of the LAMB (Rev. 21: 21-24) (Rev. 22:3-5) Amen.

 

[jocor]

You missed the point. God created all things that are and things not seen. He created the SUN to give life to all organic existence. Without the SUN photosynthesis is not possible. Do you believe the Gospel of God that Christ came to confirm the promises He made unto the fathers (Patriarchs)? And that the Gentile would receive the benefits of those promises also? (Rom. 15:8-13)

I understood your point perfectly which is why I added the fact that we can live without the sun if that is Yahweh's will.
"Yes" to both your questions.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I understood your point perfectly which is why I added the fact that we can live without the sun if that is Yahweh's will.
"Yes" to both your questions.

Check that post again. I added the Scriptures to prove your fact about no SUN.

 

[jocor]

Who will be saved? Those who know how to pronounce His name and the correct etymology, or those who recognize and receive Him by His works? (John 10:37-38)

Those who receive him as Master and Savior. However, that does not negate the importance of restoring truth to our lips when needed.

 

[jocor]

Check that post again. I added the Scriptures to prove your fact about no SUN.

I was speaking hypothetically, not factually. The verses you cited in Revelation refer to believers not needing the sun's light within the city because they have the light of the Father and the Son. It does not say they do not need the sun's heat.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I was speaking hypothetically, not factually. The verses you cited in Revelation refer to believers not needing the sun's light within the city because they have the light of the Father and the Son. It does not say they do not need the sun's heat.

It always grieves me when man puts his own interpretation on Scripture. Scripture says, "A new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth will pass away, and there was no more sea,". I have visioned The Glory of God, It is Sufficient! Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom.

 

[jocor]

It always grieves me when man puts his own interpretation on Scripture. Scripture says, "A new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth will pass away, and there was no more sea,". I have visioned The Glory of God, It is Sufficient! Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom.

I assume you wrote that because you believe the sun's heat will not be needed. Is that correct? If so, consider the following:

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD (YHWH), then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​

The sun, moon and stars will never cease because Israel will never cease.

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH); If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
​

When Scripture says, "A new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth will pass away," it is not to be understood literally. If it was literal, then Yeshua would no longer rule over Israel and Israel would be cast away.

Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
​

If the sun were to cease, so would Yahweh's name. That won't happen.

Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.​

David's throne will be forever because Yeshua sits on it. Therefore, the sun will never cease.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I assume you wrote that because you believe the sun's heat will not be needed. Is that correct? If so, consider the following:

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD (YHWH), then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​

The sun, moon and stars will never cease because Israel will never cease.

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH); If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
​

When Scripture says, "A new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth will pass away," it is not to be understood literally. If it was literal, then Yeshua would no longer rule over Israel and Israel would be cast away.

Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
​

If the sun were to cease, so would Yahweh's name. That won't happen.

Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.​

David's throne will be forever because Yeshua sits on it. Therefore, the sun will never cease.

That would be during the millennium reign, but God also creates a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH. It will be different, No SEA, NO MOON and NO SUN will be needed. (Revelation Chapter 21:2-27 is about the New Jerusalem. verse 1 is about the New Heaven and Earth) That is the way I understand it. . Revelation Chapter 22 is the new Paridise or Garden. We do not yet know what we would be, but when we see HIM, we will be like HIM. (1 John 3:1-3) After all things are subdued to Christ, the last enemy being death, Christ The Son turns everything over to God so that God will be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:22-28) Some thing are hard to understand, but nevertheless, Christ's Body will be where ever He is and we shall dwell in the House of the LORD forever.

 

[smaller]

You know full well what I meant. I did not mean Yeshua was an aspect. The Passover lamb was an aspect of the law that referred to Yeshua.

The Lamb of God was God Himself, in the Image, Expression, Word of The Son.

This is where your sight goes haywire, in not seeing God's Own Self Expressed in and through the Son.


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[jocor]

The Lamb of God was God Himself, in the Image, Expression, Word of The Son.

This is where your sight goes haywire, in not seeing God's Own Self Expressed in and through the Son.

I clearly see the Son being the express image of the Father. I do not see the Lamb of God being God Himself. The following verses clearly show the Father (God) and the Lamb (the Son) as two different beings. Therefore, the Lamb was not "God Himself".

Revelation 7:10 (KJV)
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV)
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 (KJV)
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 21:22 (KJV)
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 22:1 (KJV)
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.​

Revelation 22:3 (KJV)
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

“By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB).​

Why does the NASB read differently?

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (United Bible Society, New York, 1975), p. 641.​

 

[smaller]

“By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB).​

Why does the NASB read differently?

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (United Bible Society, New York, 1975), p. 641.​

So, using your measures, this statement in the KJV is false?

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I might think that to be The Perfect Lamb of God that would be a mandatory requirement.

"Secondly, the textual evidence for the reading "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is massive. It is the reading found in the Majority of all remaining Greek manuscripts we have today. Of the 300 known Greek cursive copies we have of the epistle of Paul to Timothy 254 of them read "GOD was manifest in the flesh".
http://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm
http://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

 

[jocor]

So, using your measures, this statement in the KJV is false?


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes.

I might think that to be The Perfect Lamb of God that would be a mandatory requirement.

The verses I cited prove that to be incorrect thinking.

"Secondly, the textual evidence for the reading "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is massive. It is the reading found in the Majority of all remaining Greek manuscripts we have today. Of the 300 known Greek cursive copies we have of the epistle of Paul to Timothy 254 of them read "GOD was manifest in the flesh".
http://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

The earliest remaining Greek copy of 1 Timothy is from about 350 A.D. Plenty of time for corruption.

Also, the site you linked to says Hyppolytus quoted the verse in Against the Heresies of Noetus I: 1:17. I checked that, but could not find any such quote. Can you find it?

 

[smaller]

Yes.

I would probably be more inclined to see the revisions less accurate.

The verses I cited prove that to be incorrect thinking.

The earliest remaining Greek copy of 1 Timothy is from about 350 A.D. Plenty of time for corruption.

Also, the site you linked to says Hyppolytus quoted the verse in Against the Heresies of Noetus I: 1:17. I checked that, but could not find any such quote. Can you find it?

I have never had a case to seek to disprove the KJV.

Citings from both 1st and 2nd Timothy are noted in earlier writings as well, as "God."

Were it based on a single scripture, you may have a slim point. But that's not the case.

We'd also have to conclude from Acts 7:44-46 , Stephen's statement about Jesus is false. That Paul's teaching Jesus from the law and the prophets were false statements, that the Word of God (from law and prophets) was NOT made flesh, and on and on it goes.

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I fail to see the validity of your claims other than a few alternate proposals from the anti-Trin camps who make such postures largely because they are against the RCC more than any other reasons.

The casual deflections of scriptural points of observations prior and the non-engagements show that you're maybe not all that interested in any case. The Jews didn't believe it either.

 

[jocor]

I have never had a case to seek to disprove the KJV.

So you never sought to correct or prove the translation "Easter" in Acts 12:4?

Were it based on a single scripture, you may have a slim point. But that's not the case.

We'd also have to conclude from Acts 7:44-46 , Stephen's statement about Jesus is false.

Stephen's statement is not false, but the KJV "Jesus" is. It should have been translated "Joshua" as most other versions have it.

That Paul's teaching Jesus from the law and the prophets were false statements, that the Word of God (from law and prophets) was NOT made flesh, and on and on it goes.

Not sure why you would say this except to deflect the obvious conclusion that there are translation errors in the KJV. The majority of the KJV is correct, but when there is manuscript or contextual evidence that brings that translation into question, it cannot be ignored.

I fail to see the validity of your claims other than a few alternate proposals from the anti-Trin camps who make such postures largely because they are against the RCC more than any other reasons.

It is not my job to open your eyes. I just plant the seeds of truth.

The casual deflections of scriptural points of observations prior and the non-engagements show that you're maybe not all that interested in any case. The Jews didn't believe it either.

Associate me with the unbelieving Jews in the hope of discrediting my view. That might work.

I do not casually deflect nor fail to engage. All of my posts are as thorough as I can make them without getting suspended from the forum.

 

[smaller]

So you never sought to correct or prove the translation "Easter" in Acts 12:4?

I'm not big on rituals and holidays, personally. Do I play along? Sure. Good chance to witness, but as to any of that being "biblically official and mandatory with an OR ELSE?" Uh, no. Not by my sight. Most of these disputes of history came about because some theological pinheads wanted to be right and make some other guys wrong. Few will take the scriptures to prove they are WRONG. That's the direction I was led. Kind of the opposite way. You know, the "turn ye at my reproof" direction?

Stephen's statement is not false, but the KJV "Jesus" is. It should have been translated "Joshua" as most other versions have it.

So, not Jesus to you, but the O.T. priest? Or would you concede that Jesus as we know the term is the Joshua being referred to?

Not sure why you would say this except to deflect the obvious conclusion that there are translation errors in the KJV.

Whatever minor issues exist in getting Aramaic or Hebrew to English are probably not going to change how I see, no. Even modern Judaism had to reconstruct their own ancient language to understand it as it had changed.

The majority of the KJV is correct, but when there is manuscript or contextual evidence that brings that translation into question, it cannot be ignored.

As stated prior, were the trinity based on a line or 2 you'd have a point. But that isn't the case.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[jocor]

So, not Jesus to you, but the O.T. priest? Or would you concede that Jesus as we know the term is the Joshua being referred to?

No, Joshua the son of Nun, the soldier, not the priest. There is no way the verse refers to the Messiah.

Jos 1:1-2 And it cometh to pass after the death of Moses, servant of Jehovah (Yahweh), that Jehovah (Yahweh) speaketh unto Joshua son of Nun, minister of Moses, saying, Moses my servant is dead, and now, rise, pass over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.​

Joshua son of Nun brought the people into the possession of the Gentiles. This is a type of Yeshua when he brings his people into the Kingdom of Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:19

that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I love this verse because it teaches exactly what I believe, that God (Father YHWH) was IN Christ, not that He was Christ. He is in me as well, but that doesn't make me God.

 

[smaller]

I love this verse because it teaches exactly what I believe, that God (Father YHWH) was IN Christ, not that He was Christ. He is in me as well, but that doesn't make me God.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

God has the same intentions with us.

John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[jocor]

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

God has the same intentions with us.

John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Amen! We can be one as they are. Not a oneness of being or deity, but a oneness of unity and purpose.

 

[JLB]

God had been seen in the O.T. appearing to men that did not die when they had seen Him.

The Lord appeared to Abraham face to face.

Genesis 12:7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

The Lord appeared to Isaac face to face.

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

The Lord appeared to Jacob face to face.

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

So this verse below is confirmed.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

So Who is the God that men had seen? Was it the Father?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So pretty much the two verses are testifying that no man had seen God the Father, save Jesus, Who is God.

So Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T.?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So the Son of God was the God that men had seen before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These in the OT saw God the Son.

The Pre-incarnate Jesus.

Also referred to as the Angel of the Lord, who is called both Lord and God.


JLB