Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[JLB]

How many Gods do you hold to? One

One.

These three are One.

Your understanding of One, may be different than that of the Lord.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Jesus calls the Father the ONE true God. So when He states "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" to state His spirit is also divine is to believe in two Gods.

These three are One.

His God and our God. Jesus is our Lord.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18

The Lord is the Spirit.

The Spirit of Life, that the Lord breathed into Adam, is the Spirit of Christ.

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH, the Lord.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


Obeying the Gospel is confessing Jesus as YHWH, the Lord.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved"... is a direct reference to YHWH, the Lord of Israel.

For the Jew to believe the Gospel, He had to obey the Gospel by confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Not some "other" Lord, but the Savior of Israel, who is YHWH the only Savior, Jesus Christ, and is the Lord of the old testament as well as the new.

He is the One who is coming with the saints, and will sit on His throne in Jerusalem when He returns.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

and again

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming... [This is also called the Day of Christ] 2 Thessalonians 2:1
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...
Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be— “The Lord is one,” And His name one.
Zechariah 14;1,4,5,9

• It is the Lord Jesus who is coming on the Day of the Lord, not God the Father.
• It is the Lord Jesus Christ who is coming with the saints, the Lord God, YHWH
• It is the Lord Jesus who is the King over all the earth, and will sit on His throne of Glory in Jerusalem.
• It is the Lord Jesus who will be seen by those in all of Israel, and they will mourn.

• I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

• Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Day of the Lord, YHWH, is the Day of Christ.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2

The Day of YHWH, the Lord, is the Day of Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


If you believe the Day of the Lord, YHWH is the day of God the Father, and the Day of Christ is some other day, then please post the scriptures for this claim.


If you deny Jesus as YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, who is the King of Israel and the savior of Israel, then you deny Him as Lord, and you are in unbelief.

Confessing Jesus as YHWH, the Lord, is believing/obeying the Gospel.


13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:13-16


JLB

 

[JLB]

It was not Christ's spirit, but the spirit that testifies about Christ. Yeshua was not yet "the Anointed" (Maschiach/Christ) before his birth. He didn't become the Anointed/Christ until his baptism (Luke 3:22; 4:18; Acts 10:38).

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

How can an "it', that doesn't exist and have Life, be the Spirit of Christ and speak through the mouth of the prophets, Jocor.

Please explain this "belief' of yours.

The Spirit of Christ in them:

• Who = the Spirit of Christ
• them = the old testament prophets

The Spirit of Christ testified, beforehand of His own sufferings.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Col 1:16 ForG3754 byG1722 himG846 were all thingsG3956 created,G2936 thatG3588 are inG1722 heaven,G3772 andG2532 thatG3588 are inG1909 earth,G1093 visibleG3707 andG2532 invisible,G517 whetherG1535 they be thrones,G2362 orG1535 dominions,G2963 orG1535 principalities,G746 orG1535 powers:G1849 all thingsG3956 were createdG2936 byG1223 him,G846 andG2532 forG1519 him:G846
As you can see by this verse with Strong’s numbers, our English word “by” is translated from two different Greek words, “en” and “di” (from "dia"). Paul used TWO different words because he intended TWO different meanings for his message. Yet, our English versions do NOT make that evident, but give only one meaning.

The ASV, YLT etc., have the correct translation that brings out the meanings Paul intended.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Nothing was created “by” Yeshua as the direct cause. Everything was created by his Father for, through and in Messiah.

All things were created by, through and for, The Lord Jesus, who is YHWH, the Lord God.

Here is your King James version, which you said you use.

Strong's G1722 - in, by, with etc. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1722&t=KJV

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 KJV

The next verse is the nail in the coffin for all those who deny Jesus as YHWH, the Lord God.

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:17 KJV

Before any "thing" was created, He is before them, and is the creator of them.

verse 17 says "he", not "it', but "he" is before all things.


But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[jocor]

Here is your King James version, which you said you use.

. . .

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 KJV

As long as you continue to reject the Greek or Hebrew and rely solely on the English, you will not come to a knowledge of the truth. I do not rely on the KJV when it conflicts with the Greek.

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:17 KJV

Before any "thing" was created, He is before them, and is the creator of them.

verse 17 says "he", not "it', but "he" is before all things.

I already explained to you that the Greek word "pro" can mean first in place as in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8. Since the context is dealing with Yeshua's preeminence in all things (vs. 18), a better translation would be "he is superior to all things" or "he is above all things".

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

Again, you rely on the English when both Hebrew and Greek use a word that can mean a mighty one other than the one true God. Since the Son taught us there is only one true God (John 17:3), all other elohim or theos must be lesser elohim. The word "God", when written in English with a capital G can only refer to the one true God, the Father. Thus, the English of Hebrews 1:8 is very misleading.

 

[jocor]

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

How can an "it', that doesn't exist and have Life, be the Spirit of Christ and speak through the mouth of the prophets, Jocor.

Please explain this "belief' of yours.

The Bible speaks of the "spirit of wisdom," "spirit of grace," "spirit of truth," "spirit of adoption," etc. These are not different beings or different living spirits. They are functions of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit wants to impress upon us something associated with adoption, it is called the "spirit of adoption". If it wants to explain something about the promised Messiah, it is called the "spirit of Messiah/Christ". All Messianic prophecies were given through the prophets as the Holy Spirit moved them to prophecy about him. It is a function of the Holy Spirit as it teaches about Christ.

 

[JLB]

As long as you continue to reject the Greek or Hebrew and rely solely on the English, you will not come to a knowledge of the truth. I do not rely on the KJV when it conflicts with the Greek.

I showed you from the Greek, where the word is translated as: Strong's G1722 - in, by, with etc. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1722&t=KJV

I do not rely on the KJV when it conflicts with the Greek.

Please post your credentials, that are superior to those who translated the King James Bible.

You ignore what the context of the scriptures show.

You over rule your own bible, the KJV to mix and match whatever words or phrases suit you, all because you deny Jesus as Lord, the The Lord God of Israel, who will come with His saints, that He Himself redeemed with His own Blood.

Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible speaks of the "spirit of wisdom," "spirit of grace," "spirit of truth," "spirit of adoption," etc. These are not different beings or different living spirits. They are functions of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the Lord, that dwells in His people.

The Spirit of Christ, was in the OT prophets, and spoke through them, and indicated the things which He would suffer.


The Lord manifested Himself as the Messenger of the Lord, or The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

As I said before, angels are called sons of God.

The Angel of the Lord is The Son of God, as if referred to as The Lord, YHWH and God throughout the OT.



Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall belike God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


Then we see the Angel of the Lord, state that it was Him who led the children of Israel out of Egypt, and made Covenant with them.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
Judges 2:1-4


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8



JLB

 

[JLB]

I already explained to you that the Greek word "pro" can mean first in place as in James 5:12 and 1 Peter 4:8. Since the context is dealing with Yeshua's preeminence in all things (vs. 18), a better translation would be "he is superior to all things" or "he is above all things".

I already explained to you, that you are not qualified to change the words of the Bible.

This "can" mean that...
This word would "better" be translated "this way"...

You don't have any scripture to use, so your forced to "make up" translations that suite you.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13

Claiming that the Lord our Savior is just a man, and not the Lord of Israel, The Savior and Redeemer, is disobeying the Gospel.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” This is a direct quote from Joel 2, and is a direct reference to YHWH.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH, the Savior and Lord of Israel, is obeying the Gospel.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, you rely on the English when both Hebrew and Greek use a word that can mean a mighty one other than the one true God. Since the Son taught us there is only one true God (John 17:3), all other elohim or theos must be lesser elohim. The word "God", when written in English with a capital G can only refer to the one true God, the Father. Thus, the English of Hebrews 1:8 is very misleading.

Genesis described the creator with the plural Elohim, and by saying...

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26


God [Elohim] is plural.
Us is plural.
Our is plural.

The only True God is plural, being The father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These Three are One. 1 John 5:7


Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


Jesus is the Lord God of Israel. YHWH the Lord God.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Same old same old. You can't refute my beliefs or my understanding of the Hebrew or Greek so you bring my qualifications into question even though I back up my translation beliefs with well accepted versions that translate it as I do. Would you also ask the translators of the ASV and YLT what their qualifications are because they translate in a way that is unacceptable to you?

 

[JLB]

Same old same old. You can't refute my beliefs or my understanding of the Hebrew or Greek so you bring my qualifications into question even though I back up my translation beliefs with well accepted versions that translate it as I do.

You are not qualified to interpret the Greek or the Hebrew so as to change the King James Bible, so it explains away Christ and His Lordship over heaven and earth, as The King and Savior of Israel, as well as creator, together with The Father and the Holy Spirit.

I guess the King James or the New King James is not "accepted".


JLB

 

[JLB]

Same old same old. You can't refute my beliefs or my understanding of the Hebrew or Greek

You won't, or can't you answer any of the scriptures, except to say, "my understanding of the Greek and Hebrew, is better than the translators", so here is what that verse "really" means...

Please explain this:

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
Judges 2:1-4


Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, who became flesh and died for our sins, and rose again on the Third Day.

He is coming with His saints to Judge the living and the dead.

Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


Scripture after scripture after scripture, upon scripture that shows us Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH, the Lord God.

and all you can says is: "That's not really the best way to interpret that". :drool


Why bother even reading the bible, Jocor, if we don't have you there to interpret it for us.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Please explain this:

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
Judges 2:1-4


Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, who became flesh and died for our sins, and rose again on the Third Day.

He is coming with His saints to Judge the living and the dead.

Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


JLB

I already addressed everything here. Go back and review what I wrote. I'm tired of having to repeat myself and especially tired of you repeating yourself.

 

[JLB]

I already addressed everything here. Go back and review what I wrote. I'm tired of having to repeat myself and especially tired of you repeating yourself.

You are going to have to address my post's with scripture, not your opinion about "the better meanings of Greek and Hebrew words", which is all you have done in the face of many scriptures.

Go ahead and list the post number where you addressed what I posted about the Angel of the Lord, and how the scriptures show Him to be God.

You are not qualified to change what the bible says to suit your "Messianic Judaism" teachings that deny Jesus as Lord, our God and Savior.

You reject being a Christian, when the scriptures teach us this:

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16

and again

And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11:26


JLB

 

[Randy]

One.

These three are One.

Your understanding of One, may be different than that of the Lord.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7



These three are One.




17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18

The Lord is the Spirit.

The Spirit of Life, that the Lord breathed into Adam, is the Spirit of Christ.

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH, the Lord.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


Obeying the Gospel is confessing Jesus as YHWH, the Lord.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved"... is a direct reference to YHWH, the Lord of Israel.

For the Jew to believe the Gospel, He had to obey the Gospel by confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Not some "other" Lord, but the Savior of Israel, who is YHWH the only Savior, Jesus Christ, and is the Lord of the old testament as well as the new.

He is the One who is coming with the saints, and will sit on His throne in Jerusalem when He returns.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

and again

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming... [This is also called the Day of Christ] 2 Thessalonians 2:1
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...
Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be— “The Lord is one,” And His name one.
Zechariah 14;1,4,5,9

• It is the Lord Jesus who is coming on the Day of the Lord, not God the Father.
• It is the Lord Jesus Christ who is coming with the saints, the Lord God, YHWH
• It is the Lord Jesus who is the King over all the earth, and will sit on His throne of Glory in Jerusalem.
• It is the Lord Jesus who will be seen by those in all of Israel, and they will mourn.

• I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10

• Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Day of the Lord, YHWH, is the Day of Christ.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2

The Day of YHWH, the Lord, is the Day of Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


If you believe the Day of the Lord, YHWH is the day of God the Father, and the Day of Christ is some other day, then please post the scriptures for this claim.


If you deny Jesus as YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, who is the King of Israel and the savior of Israel, then you deny Him as Lord, and you are in unbelief.

Confessing Jesus as YHWH, the Lord, is believing/obeying the Gospel.


13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:13-16


JLB

I see quite well. I know my lord and He knows me. Jesus is Gods Son not the Lord God.
I follow Him. He is the Son of God Christ the Lord. Now since you question my faith and my salvation I don't think this conversation is fruitful.

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

[jocor]

Go ahead and list the post number where you addressed what I posted about the Angel of the Lord, and how the scriptures show Him to be God.

205 and following.

You are not qualified to change what the bible says to suit your "Messianic Judaism" teachings that deny Jesus as Lord, our God and Savior.

I am not a messianic Jew or a JW. Nor do I deny Yeshua as Lord or Savior. I deny your false doctrine that he is YHWH Elohim of the OT.

You reject being a Christian, when the scriptures teach us this:

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 1 Peter 4:16

and again

And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. Acts 11:26


JLB

If I lived back then, I would have proudly proclaimed myself a Christian. Christianity today is NOT the same as Apostolic Christianity. YHWH is currently in the process of restoring it to what it was ( a Body that exalts the Son as the Son of the only true God, exalts the Father as the only true God, and that keeps His commandments).

 

[JLB]

I am not a messianic Jew or a JW. Nor do I deny Yeshua as Lord or Savior. I deny your false doctrine that he is YHWH Elohim of the OT.

Your definition of Lord, is different than that of the scriptures.

The bible says Lord is YHWH.

Your definition of Lord is a man.

JW and Messianic's have the same claim, that Jesus is not God, [the Son], but just a man and is not divine.

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Was Jacob physically wrestling with God? Of course not! He was spiritually wrestling with God because he was wrestling the God's messenger / angel.

The scripture says plainly, that Jacob saw God, face to face.

Jocor says - of course not?

You simply deny what the scriptures plainly teach.

Jacob, Moses, Manoah and Hagar can all rightly say they saw God even though they were only seeing an angel because the angel is YHWH's shaliach or representative/agent. They were not literally seeing God.

The scriptures says -

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


Jocor says - They were not literally seeing God.

You simply deny the scriptures and what they plainly say.


This is called unbelief. You have denied the truth.

These all saw Jesus, The Lord God. The great I AM, who became flesh and died for our sins.

He is the Lord God of Israel who is coming with His saints.


Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5



JLB

 

[JLB]

I see quite well. I know my lord and He knows me. Jesus is Gods Son not the Lord God.

Jesus is God's only begotten Son, and is God.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Jesus will come with the saints, not God the Father.

Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
Jude 14

He is of the Godhead, with God His Father and the Holy Spirit.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Amen.

How does this mean Jesus Himself is not also God, as His Son.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:28


JLB

 

[JLB]

If I lived back then, I would have proudly proclaimed myself a Christian. Christianity today is NOT the same as Apostolic Christianity.

Your not a Christian, because of what others, are not doing?

You deny being a Christian, until the Lord gets everyone else in line?


OK, Got it.



JLB