Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[Randy]

Consider John 1:1,(NKJV) there are three statements made:
(1) In the beginning was the Word, In the beginning, the Word (AKA:Son) was already there. HE is co-eternal with the Father.
(2) and the Word was with God, The Word is a separate person from the Father and both are God.
(3) and the Word was God. Everything that God is, the Word (Son) is.

my 2 kopecks

iakov the fool

I agree Jesus was with God in the beginning of creation and even before the world began.
God the Father made the creation through Jesus His Firstborn.
I agree all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. (The Father)
Jesus is the word of the Father. (God)

Randy

 

[Randy]

Randy,

You want scripture stating Jesus always was. What's wrong with the most obvious one?
John 1:1...

"In the beginning was the word, and the word WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD..."

Jesus was clearly the Word of God as shown in John 1.
Would you have a different explanation for John 1?

The Word in Greek is Logos. Logos is the Word of God being made into a person. The jews understood about God's word "going out" and creating an effect. For instance in Psalms 33:6 and 147:15-18

The Logos was the desire of God, the thought of God, made real. Jesus is God made into a man, the same God who spoke the Word, the 2nd person of the Trinity -the WORD of God. It's plain that Jesus is that word made into a person in John 1.

Jesus is God's Word revealed to man. In John 14:9 Jesus says "Whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father."

Could God have existed without His thoughts? Without His word going out?
God's thoughts are a part of Himself. His Word is a part of Himself. Jesus is that thought and that Word, so He MUST have existed from as bar back as God existed. Which is always, since God has no beginning.

How else could you explain John 1?

Wondering

Yes, of course, as a Man.

Jesus became a little lower than the angels, so in that state of being, as a man, He was a little lower than the angels.

You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
Hebrews 2:7


What we are discussing is what Jesus was, before He became flesh.

The scriptures teach Him as the Lord God, YHWH, who was before all things, and created all things, together with His Father and the Holy Spirit.

• Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

• He is the Word of God who became flesh. John 1:1-3,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

• He is the Lord God who will come with the saints, on the Day of the Lord. Zechariah 14:5

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

• He is God the Son, who is YHWH. Hebrews 1:8

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

• He is the Lord God, Savior of Israel. Isaiah 43:3, Titus 2:13

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

• He is the Alpha and Omega, The First and Last. Revelation 22:12-13

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


Jesus is the King of Israel, who will return from Heaven, and who will sit on the Throne of David in Jerusalem, and reign for 1000 years.

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east...
Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You... And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:4-5,16-17


JLB

Jesus has always been the Son. The firstborn of all creation or every creature. That makes Him older then the creation (Genesis). That makes Him before the angels of God. That makes Him older then the 4 creatures around the throne of God. Jesus was there when all that was set up. Nothing was setup put into place or created without Him except Himself and the Father. God the Father is the Father of all living beings starting with His firstborn Jesus. "Our" Father who is in heaven....

Jesus was kept hidden from the world until the proper time set by God. Virgin Birth. ref:Then the Lord my god will come.... Jesus will come with His angels. His angels because God commanded them to bow Jesus when God brought the firstborn into the world. Jesus is not even mentioned in Daniel 12:1 at that time but He as the resurrection and the life will be involved with Michael His angel at that event.

The Father is the Lord your God and is also the God and Father of Jesus His Christ. The Father will remain in heaven until the 1000 years has expired. The Father the one who visited Moses on the mountain top.

 

[Randy]

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son. John 5:22

I agree the Father has placed all judgment into the hands of Jesus so that all who honor the Father may also honor the SON.
Randy

 

[Randy]

The teaching that the Son is "begotten" of the Father should not be taken in human terms. The word communicates a relationship between The Father and the Son. How there "came to be a Son begotten og the Father" remains a mystery.

Yes. And that one God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
There is no material (created) corollary and all attempts at analogy fall short of their goal.

iakov the fool

So your solid foundation is mystery?
Not to me.
Randy

 

[Randy]

Yes, of course, as a Man.

JLB

You believe the Father living in Jesus was/started because He became the Son of Man??? But not now??

 

[jocor]

You are all reading the Son into the text of John 1:1-4. The "logos" is the Father's spoken words and thoughts. He spoke the Son into existence when the "logos" was made flesh. The "logos" was not a spirit being who was miniaturized and placed in Mary's womb. Nor was he a spirit being who was morphed into a sperm. The Father, through the power of His Holy Spirit, spoke the necessary word/words to cause Mary's egg to become fertilized with the necessary DNA to produce a male child. If not, then Mary was just a surrogate mother and Yeshua would not be of David's bloodline.

Consider John 1:1,(NKJV) there are three statements made:
(1) In the beginning was the Word, In the beginning, the Word (AKA:Son) was already there. HE is co-eternal with the Father.
(2) and the Word was with God, The Word is a separate person from the Father and both are God.
(3) and the Word was God. Everything that God is, the Word (Son) is.

You almost have the understanding of John 1:1c correct except you believe the "Word" is the "Son".

Here is an excerpt from one of the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars (Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.)

"As we have said, word order is employed especially for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have, 'and the Word was God.' But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads,

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.

We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation (Revised English Bible) brings out this force." (Parenthesis and bold mine).​

In other words, If the Father is holy, so is His word. If the Father is powerful, so is His word. If the Father is creative, so is His word. The attributes of the word of YHWH are the same as the attributes of YHWH Himself.

 

[jocor]

Here are 18 versions that translate John 1 without reading the Son into the text:

1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde…All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible,
1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word…through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom…All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word…All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ,
1826)
14. “The Word…All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT,
1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)

 

[JLB]

The word communicates a relationship between The Father and the Son.

Yes, the relationship of a Father who beget His only begotten Son.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are all reading the Son into the text of John 1:1-4. The "logos" is the Father's spoken words and thoughts.

You have already been proven wrong on that "theory".

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• "He" is before all things.
• In "Him" all things consist.
• For by "Him" all things were created.

Not "it", but "Him".

Let Us make man in Our Image and in Our Likeness. Genesis 1:26


All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

• All things were made through "Him".
• without "Him" nothing was made that was made.

Not "It", but "Him".

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God is not an "It".


Jocor, are you sure your not a Jehovah's witness?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You almost have the understanding of John 1:1c correct except you believe the "Word" is the "Son".

The Apostle John believes the Son is called the Word also:

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here are 18 versions that translate John 1 without reading the Son into the text:

1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde…All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible,
1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word…through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom…All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word…All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ,
1826)
14. “The Word…All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT,
1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?...
For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;
Psalm 22:1,16

...the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ


JLB

 

[jocor]

You have already been proven wrong on that "theory".

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• "He" is before all things.
• In "Him" all things consist.
• For by "Him" all things were created.

Not "it", but "Him".

Let Us make man in Our Image and in Our Likeness. Genesis 1:26


All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

• All things were made through "Him".
• without "Him" nothing was made that was made.

Not "It", but "Him".

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God is not an "It".


Jocor, are you sure your not a Jehovah's witness?
JLB

You have proven nothing wrong about my view.

What is it going to be? Were all things created "by" or "through" the Son? The answer is "through" as that is what the Greek word "dia" means with the Genitive as in Col 1:16.

In Col 1:16, "him" is used because it is referring to the Son (a person). In John 1:3, "it" is used by all those versions because it refers to the "logos" which is a thing, the spoken words and thoughts. You choose to go along with modern versions which make the "logos" a person.

 

[jocor]

The Apostle John believes the Son is called the Word also:

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13


JLB

I agree. Rev 19:13 is a name that was given to the Son AFTER he became flesh, not before.

 

[jocor]

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Your underlining, bolding and red font will not make the words "who" or "He" appear in the Greek text. That is simply the translator's bias being added into the text. The KJV says "which" and "it". As far as I can tell, the NKJV is the only version that uses "who".

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?...
For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;
Psalm 22:1,16

This is Yeshua crying out to his God. If you are correct that "Jesus" is God and he has a God, then you have two Gods no matter how you slice it.

 

[JLB]

This is Yeshua crying out to his God. If you are correct that "Jesus" is God and he has a God, then you have two Gods no matter how you slice it.

This is the Spirit of Christ, speaking through the mouth of David, foretelling of the things He would suffer.

Yet, you say, He didn't exist then.

Your underlining, bolding and red font will not make the words "who" or "He" appear in the Greek text. That is simply the translator's bias being added into the text. The KJV says "which" and "it". As far as I can tell, the NKJV is the only version that uses "who".

He is the same verse in the King James -

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17 KJV

The King James Version says the same thing. He created all things.

He is before all things.

Your vain attempts to explain away the divinity of Christ are shameful, and blasphemous.



26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26



JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree. Rev 19:13 is a name that was given to the Son AFTER he became flesh, not before.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

You have proven nothing wrong about my view.

What is it going to be? Were all things created "by" or "through" the Son? The answer is "through" as that is what the Greek word "dia" means with the Genitive as in Col 1:16.

In Col 1:16, "him" is used because it is referring to the Son (a person). In John 1:3, "it" is used by all those versions because it refers to the "logos" which is a thing, the spoken words and thoughts. You choose to go along with modern versions which make the "logos" a person.

All things were created by Him.

Why do you deny what the scriptures plainly say.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 KJV

• by him were all things created
• all things were created by him, and for him:

JLB

 

[Randy]

Yes, the relationship of a Father who beget His only begotten Son.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15


JLB

Actually its:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

And Gods Firstborn was appointed to the line of David and in that Davids line never ends. Jesus is the greatest of Kings.
Psalm 89:27 I also firstborn do appoint Him greatest of the Kings of the earth.

God is Spirit per Jesus.
How many Gods do you hold to? One

Jesus calls the Father the ONE true God. So when He states "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" to state His spirit is also divine is to believe in two Gods. If you state it was the just the incarnation then what part of Him was God?

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Spirit ONLY the Father claims as His own. Jesus never makes that claim. Jesus does make the claim along with the Father that the Father is His God. Again there is only ONE God. And according to Jesus its the Father. His God and our God. Jesus is our Lord.

The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears from the Father as its His Spirit from the Son because God has granted the Son to have life in Himself and given Jesus a place on His throne. (all authority) The miracles were performed by the HS at the will of Jesus. It was the HS over the waters in the beginning of creation. God made the creation through Jesus.

Randy

 

[jocor]

This is the Spirit of Christ, speaking through the mouth of David, foretelling of the things He would suffer.

Yet, you say, He didn't exist then.
JLB

It was not Christ's spirit, but the spirit that testifies about Christ. Yeshua was not yet "the Anointed" (Maschiach/Christ) before his birth. He didn't become the Anointed/Christ until his baptism (Luke 3:22; 4:18; Acts 10:38).

 

[jocor]

All things were created by Him.

Why do you deny what the scriptures plainly say.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 KJV

• by him were all things created
• all things were created by him, and for him:

JLB

Col 1:16 ForG3754 byG1722 himG846 were all thingsG3956 created,G2936 thatG3588 are inG1722 heaven,G3772 andG2532 thatG3588 are inG1909 earth,G1093 visibleG3707 andG2532 invisible,G517 whetherG1535 they be thrones,G2362 orG1535 dominions,G2963 orG1535 principalities,G746 orG1535 powers:G1849 all thingsG3956 were createdG2936 byG1223 him,G846 andG2532 forG1519 him:G846​

As you can see by this verse with Strong’s numbers, our English word “by” is translated from two different Greek words, “en” and “di” (from "dia"). Paul used TWO different words because he intended TWO different meanings for his message. Yet, our English versions do NOT make that evident, but give only one meaning.

The ASV, YLT etc., have the correct translation that brings out the meanings Paul intended.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;​

Nothing was created “by” Yeshua as the direct cause. Everything was created by his Father for, through and in Messiah.

1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. ASV​

So, “him” is correctly used in these verse because they refer to Yeshua. “Him” is wrongly used in John 1:3-4 because the Son is not the subject. The spoken word and thought of the Father is the subject. Words are not people, but things. Thus “it” is the correct translation as those other 18 versions have it.