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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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jeruel
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- #23
Your question implies that God did create hell (past tense). Since you have read the Bible through, that gives a picture of how serious you are in your study of the scripture. In your guidelines on how your question is to be answered, won't you consider the possibility that the phrasing might be wrong and the whole question itself might not have troubled you if your understanding of hell is overhauled?
A diligent search of scripture will reveal that God did not create hell (past tense). There is no verse in the Bible which gives an idea that God created hell in the past. When God creates, He sits back and say "good." I don't think that can be said about hell.
The most that we can see in scripture about God creating hell, is in the future. Reason? To put an end to sin and its result (like radioactive rivers, toxic garbage dump, and of course criminals and some pharisees). So that we who want to live in a new sin-free world can have a new start. The last part of 20th and first part 21th chapters of Revelation give this pictures.
Hell is God's loving answer for humanity to have a new beginning. Now I can't probably have that if my credit card records which i can't pay are not torched, the river near my home is unswimmable, lunatics are presidents and my vegetables are pump full of pesticides. The new earth will not be a renovation of the earth we have now. The earth will be torched clean. A blank sheet. Then we can all write our life story once again.
A diligent search of scripture will reveal that God did not create hell (past tense). There is no verse in the Bible which gives an idea that God created hell in the past. When God creates, He sits back and say "good." I don't think that can be said about hell.
The most that we can see in scripture about God creating hell, is in the future. Reason? To put an end to sin and its result (like radioactive rivers, toxic garbage dump, and of course criminals and some pharisees). So that we who want to live in a new sin-free world can have a new start. The last part of 20th and first part 21th chapters of Revelation give this pictures.
Hell is God's loving answer for humanity to have a new beginning. Now I can't probably have that if my credit card records which i can't pay are not torched, the river near my home is unswimmable, lunatics are presidents and my vegetables are pump full of pesticides. The new earth will not be a renovation of the earth we have now. The earth will be torched clean. A blank sheet. Then we can all write our life story once again.
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conchoreb
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- #24
duval,
Man talk about deja vu all over again! OK let me start over. As scripture says (and you quoted in your first post) God created hell for the devil and his angels. I asked about man because as scripture says (and you quoted) it was not originally created for man. I know unsaved man now has reservations there. I am familiar with scripture.
I guess my question (the topic title) has really been answered but I obviously phrased the question poorly. A more accurate phrasing would be:
"Can anyone give me biblical or theological sources explaining WHY God chose to send the unsaved into eternal torment along with the devil and his angels, as opposed to annihilation or some other less fearsome punishment?"
I'm sure I will get answers disagreeing with my view of hell. I can agree to disagree with others over our belief in the nature of hell or even its existence--I don't want to discuss that, at least not here. I just want an answer to the question.
Man talk about deja vu all over again! OK let me start over. As scripture says (and you quoted in your first post) God created hell for the devil and his angels. I asked about man because as scripture says (and you quoted) it was not originally created for man. I know unsaved man now has reservations there. I am familiar with scripture.
I guess my question (the topic title) has really been answered but I obviously phrased the question poorly. A more accurate phrasing would be:
"Can anyone give me biblical or theological sources explaining WHY God chose to send the unsaved into eternal torment along with the devil and his angels, as opposed to annihilation or some other less fearsome punishment?"
I'm sure I will get answers disagreeing with my view of hell. I can agree to disagree with others over our belief in the nature of hell or even its existence--I don't want to discuss that, at least not here. I just want an answer to the question.
ProphetMark
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- Jul 14, 2008
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Isn't it rather harsh, even for the devil and his angels?duval said:
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conchoreb
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- #28
duval is right. Though hell is "harsh"--and if it were up to me (no blasphemy intended) I would do away with it. But it's God call and Scripture tell us it exists.
I'm still looking for some answers as to why the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.
I mean even though the Word tells us they will be and that there are degrees of punishment in hell it hardly seems just to have "mere" sinners tormented anywhere near the vicinity of the devil and his demons.
I would like someone to point me to some theological works explaining the biblical justification for this, and/or where in scripture this justification is.
Bet I don't get a solid answer--haven't yet.
I'm still looking for some answers as to why the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.
I mean even though the Word tells us they will be and that there are degrees of punishment in hell it hardly seems just to have "mere" sinners tormented anywhere near the vicinity of the devil and his demons.
I would like someone to point me to some theological works explaining the biblical justification for this, and/or where in scripture this justification is.
Bet I don't get a solid answer--haven't yet.
conchoreb,conchoreb said:
This is good, conchoreb. You are beginning to talk about the "what" of what you think hell is. The importance of the "what" is vital. You have made some generalizations that are part Bible and part something else. I do not know where you received your information, other than the Bible. Like many others, I grew up with denominational part truths, part conjecture that people responded to and thereby a church was formed and preachers paid and the part truth was taught as the whole truth.
It does not seem right for me to do a critic on your above statements of hell. For if you believe them to be absolutely true then it would appear as an attack if I critic them without your solicitation. I testify to you again. When your "what" of hell is purified of conjecture, then God's purpose will appear to your understanding. God is sending me through the same education. The answer will not be found in commentaries and theology books. They are the source of your conjecture. Likewise with my own understandings. It has been painful but joyful to be purged of the additions to God's Word.
Denominations are built on additions to the Word of prophecy. There is forgiveness. People do not know they are adding. God blesses them in spite of their iniquity in this practice. Their hay, wood and stubble must be burnt, but they will be saved out of it, as a brand plucked from the burning.
Joe
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conchoreb
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- #30
Joe,
I apologize in advance for the long post--one of my pet peeves--who has time, or wants, to read them? LOL.
It's really all conjecture isn't it, or at least interpretation of scripture--hence different doctrine for different denominations, not to mention all these Christians arguing (and they KNOW they're right!) about how many angel can dance on the head of a pin.
As for casting aside theologians' interpretations I would never presume to know more than most of them. Though I study the Word every day I'm an amateur, they are the"professionals" and I have nowhere near enough time to ever match their knowledge. So, yes I will study their views in addition to the Word, though I won't go along with theologians simply because they "tickle my ears".
I think denominationalism is not a bad thing. Though I belong to one I don't accept its doctrine 100%. There's not one I would accept to that degree--I joined one that was closest to my understanding of the Word. That said I think belonging to a body of believers in a congregation is important, as is studying scripture in that setting. Left to the own devices Christian "independents" are in danger of forming some whacko ideas regarding biblical truths (as can be clearly seen on this forum) without the moderating influence of a body of fellow believers with sound, conservative biblical knowledge.
Sorry about letting my view on the "what" of hell slip out. I wanted to avoid that because I want to avoid debating those beliefs--as I've said a number of times, all I want is well regarded sources discussing the "why". I have nothing against forum members having, and expressing, their own opinions about other issues regarding hell I just would rather get the answer I seek instead of debating those other issues.
And I'm pretty sure, at this point, that I will not get that answer. Oh well, it's really is not that important--one's understanding of all the facets of hell does not effect one's salvation.
I've been around the block more than once and at nearly 60 years of age don't think that I have not heard just about everything about everything. I have formed some beliefs that are unshakeable and I don't remember the last time someone changed my mind. Now that may sound close minded but it's really not--it's just that I don't remember the last time that someone told me something that I haven't already heard, considered and either accepted or rejected--end of story.
Hey, I'm just a simple guy. "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so!"
I apologize in advance for the long post--one of my pet peeves--who has time, or wants, to read them? LOL.
It's really all conjecture isn't it, or at least interpretation of scripture--hence different doctrine for different denominations, not to mention all these Christians arguing (and they KNOW they're right!) about how many angel can dance on the head of a pin.
As for casting aside theologians' interpretations I would never presume to know more than most of them. Though I study the Word every day I'm an amateur, they are the"professionals" and I have nowhere near enough time to ever match their knowledge. So, yes I will study their views in addition to the Word, though I won't go along with theologians simply because they "tickle my ears".
I think denominationalism is not a bad thing. Though I belong to one I don't accept its doctrine 100%. There's not one I would accept to that degree--I joined one that was closest to my understanding of the Word. That said I think belonging to a body of believers in a congregation is important, as is studying scripture in that setting. Left to the own devices Christian "independents" are in danger of forming some whacko ideas regarding biblical truths (as can be clearly seen on this forum) without the moderating influence of a body of fellow believers with sound, conservative biblical knowledge.
Sorry about letting my view on the "what" of hell slip out. I wanted to avoid that because I want to avoid debating those beliefs--as I've said a number of times, all I want is well regarded sources discussing the "why". I have nothing against forum members having, and expressing, their own opinions about other issues regarding hell I just would rather get the answer I seek instead of debating those other issues.
And I'm pretty sure, at this point, that I will not get that answer. Oh well, it's really is not that important--one's understanding of all the facets of hell does not effect one's salvation.
I've been around the block more than once and at nearly 60 years of age don't think that I have not heard just about everything about everything. I have formed some beliefs that are unshakeable and I don't remember the last time someone changed my mind. Now that may sound close minded but it's really not--it's just that I don't remember the last time that someone told me something that I haven't already heard, considered and either accepted or rejected--end of story.
Hey, I'm just a simple guy. "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so!"
J
jeruel
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- Thread starter
- #31
Restricting yourself to the "why" of the matter without delving into the "what," will surely make you hear the same reason which you already have in your mind. One's understanding of hell will surely influence his understanding of the why of hell. Now if you restrict yourself to the 'why" and somebody comes along bringing you an answer for the "why" for a different "what," how can you accommodate that to understand the "why?" Soliciting answers to the "why" of something without delving into the "what" is bound to reap an echo of your own preconceived idea of the matter. If we have the same understanding of the "what" of something we are most surely to churn out the same answer for its "why." This indeed closes your window for more light and you can pretty much say "I don't remember the last time someone changed my mind." all over again.
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conchoreb
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- #32
jeruel,
Like I said (and can't seem to get across for some reason), all I want is well regarded SOURCES--writings by theologians--discussing the "why". I will accept sources that also discuss the "what".
And, as I also said before, I'm pretty sure by now that I will not get that answer here.
I'm a rookie on the forum, and imagine that's what I will remain as I don't have the time or inclination to get into arguments with folks, and as getting an answer to my question is like pulling teeth.
Although I fully believe in my conception of "what" hell is (and why can't forum members, just for the fun of it, pretend they accept that concept and help me with the "why", based on that concept, if they know of no source for me to study?)
Also, I don't have, as you think, a "preconceived idea of the matter" (to recap: exactly why God "decided" to send sinful man to the same hell He prepared for the devil and his angels). That's why I found this forum and made the inquiry. I guess it is hard to imagine someone joining Christian Forums who is not wanting argue a point or to push his own "preconceived" beliefs on others, huh?
Like I said (and can't seem to get across for some reason), all I want is well regarded SOURCES--writings by theologians--discussing the "why". I will accept sources that also discuss the "what".
And, as I also said before, I'm pretty sure by now that I will not get that answer here.
I'm a rookie on the forum, and imagine that's what I will remain as I don't have the time or inclination to get into arguments with folks, and as getting an answer to my question is like pulling teeth.
Although I fully believe in my conception of "what" hell is (and why can't forum members, just for the fun of it, pretend they accept that concept and help me with the "why", based on that concept, if they know of no source for me to study?)
Also, I don't have, as you think, a "preconceived idea of the matter" (to recap: exactly why God "decided" to send sinful man to the same hell He prepared for the devil and his angels). That's why I found this forum and made the inquiry. I guess it is hard to imagine someone joining Christian Forums who is not wanting argue a point or to push his own "preconceived" beliefs on others, huh?
The "why" of things isn't always given us by God. Dt.29 tells us the secret things belong to the Lord our God, and the things revealed belong to us and our children.
One really does not need books by theologians on the subject. If there is an answer, the Bible is its best own commentary as I've recently suggested. You may want to engage the Bible in a study not only on the love, mercy and goodness of God but also on God's JUSTICE! Therein, I believe lies your answer.
God bless
One really does not need books by theologians on the subject. If there is an answer, the Bible is its best own commentary as I've recently suggested. You may want to engage the Bible in a study not only on the love, mercy and goodness of God but also on God's JUSTICE! Therein, I believe lies your answer.
God bless
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conchoreb
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- #34
thanks for your thoughts duval
I believe Satan is hell himself, and where he is and where the spirit of evil exist that is hell!conchoreb said:
So, "Why did God create Satan" (Devil/the destroyer/spirit of evil)
Isa 54:16
16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals
And brings out a weapon for its work;
And I have created the destroyer to ruin. NASU
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conchoreb
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- #36
Why did God create Satan? Sounds like a good subject for a NEW topic Ret.
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conchoreb
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- #38
"Who is man that he will call God to account for his actions?" A good question Mondar. Don't know who would do such a thing. Maybe you should start a topic on this?
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Paidion
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- #39
Well, I'm going to speak out boldly, and affirm that God created hell in order to correct sinners:
Luke 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
However, I remind you to simply consider this and not to attempt to argue for or against it. Discussion of the reconcilation of all people to God is not permitted on Christian Forums.net
Luke 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
However, I remind you to simply consider this and not to attempt to argue for or against it. Discussion of the reconcilation of all people to God is not permitted on Christian Forums.net