Why did God say to Moses that he could not see God’s face and that no one could see God and live, yet Jacob saw God face to face and lived?

[stovebolts]

There is a great danger in taking any single passage and discussing it outside of its proper context.

Chapter 33 must be read within its own narrative first. Israel has committed adultry with God before the marriage was consummated. Israel broke covenant which rightly released God from the relationship and God will let them die. Moses intercedes for the people which brings us to Exodus 33:11 where God speaks to Moses face to face. This is simply to say that God is speaking to Moses as one friend speaks to another friend.

However, in Exodus 33:20 we see that not even Moses can see Gods face, or even Moses would die. Seems contradictory, doesn’t it?

Moses has just succeeded in changing Gods course with Israel, and even Moses does not know how God is going to do these great things through such a stubborn people. You see, even Moses realizes that he will not be with these people forever. And it’s a good time to note that Moses was the single greatest prophet just short of the Messiah. And so it is Moses asks, “Show me your glory” which is to say, show me how you will save these people. Who will you send after me?

To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.

Going back to verse 20, we know that Moses face shone brightly when he left the presence of the Lord, and we know Moses was put in the cleft of the rock as God passed by giving a taste of His glory.

Simply put, if any of us could see Gods face, it would be so wonderful, so great, so utterly magnificent we would die just to be in His presence. It would be that awesome.

There will be a day when we will see His face, and what a glorious day that will be.

Revelation 22:4

 

[JLB]

To @JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.

 

[stovebolts]

Why did God say to Moses that he could not see God’s face and that no one could see God and live (Exo 33:20), yet Jacob wrestled with God, saw him “face to face” and lived (Gen 32:30)?

These are two different things.
we see the words face to face in Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:11
this is a Jewish way of saying they spoke plainly as friends would speak.
As far as Exodus 33:20, the term is different and should not be contrasted against the term face to face as you’ve done. By doing so, a false impression is given and a misunderstanding of the narrative follows.
post 21 lays a foundation for a proper understanding.

 

[jmt356]

Samson's parents were visited by an angel.
The angel said, "I am," and that his name is beyond understanding.
After he left, the wife said "We are doomed, we have just seen God."
I believe they spoke with and saw the incarnate Jesus, and not God the Father as was the case with Moses.

Judges 13 makes very clear that Manoah and his wife [Hazzelelponi] saw an "angel of the Lord":
Jdg 13:3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, "You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son.
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, "A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn't ask him where he came from, and he didn't tell me his name.
Jdg 13:9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field.
Jdg 13:13 The angel of the LORD answered, "Your wife must do all that I have told her.”
Jdg 13:15 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."
Jdg 13:16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.)
Jdg 13:17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"
Jdg 13:18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding."
Jdg 13:20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame.
Jdg 13:21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

When Manoah said to his wife “We are doomed to die! We have seen God!” (Jdg 13:22), he was mistaken. If they had seen God, they would have died (see Exo 33:20: “no one may see me and live”). However, Manoah and his wife did not die. Manoah’s wife makes this clear when she answered, “If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this” (Jdg 13:23). Manoah and his wife lived and gave birth to Samson (Jdg 13:24).

What the story of Manoah and his wife teaches us is that some people might believe that they have seen God, but might be mistaken. Perhaps that is what happened with Jacob when he proclaimed, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” (Gen 32:30). Perhaps he did not see God, but rather, he saw and angel or a mere man, whom he mistook for God.

 

[jmt356]

And Hagar saw Him —

Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:13


And Abram saw Him —

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


And Moses —


Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:6


And Samson’s parents —


And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:22

I respectfully disagree with *some* of this. Samson’s father Manoah saw a manifestation of God, but Manoah believed he saw the “Lord” (Jdg 13:22). In fact, Manoah only saw only an angel of the Lord, as is made clear by Judges 13:3-21.

Hagar saw an “angel of the Lord” (Gen 16:7). However, believing the angel to be the Lord, Hagar named him “the God who sees me” (Gen 16:13-14). In fact, it was only an angel of the Lord.

It seems that God appeared to some of the patriarchs and prophets in a form that was less than His full form and essence. Examples include:

- He appeared to Jacob as a “man” who wrestled him (Gen 32:24-30);
- He appeared to Abraham as “three men” (Gen 18:1-6);
- He appeared to King Nebuchadnezzar as “the Son of God” in the fiery furnace (Dan 3:23-28).

These appearances could have conceivably been Jesus, but the angels that appeared to Samson’s father, to Hagar and to others could not have been Jesus. Angels are created beings (Psa 148:2-5), whereas Jesus was uncreated (John 1:1). All things (including angels) were created through Christ and form Him (Col 1:16).

 

[jmt356]

did the others see God's face? - they said they did but i believe God - they maybe thought they saw God's face but they couldn't have because God said it is not possible to see God's face and live

To my knowledge, the only person in the Bible who claimed to have seen God "face to face" was Jacob. I believe Jacob was mistaken. He may have seen an angel, but I do not believe he saw God face to face. He would not have been able to do so and live (Exo 33:20).

 

[JLB]

I respectfully disagree with *some* of this. Samson’s father Manoah saw a manifestation of God, but Manoah believed he saw the “Lord” (Jdg 13:22). In fact, Manoah only saw only an angel of the Lord, as is made clear by Judges 13:3-21.

Manoa saw God, the Angel of the Lord.

Not “an“ angel of the Lord.

Jesus the Son of God appeared as the Angel, or Messenger of the Lord. A messenger brings a message or word from another.

Jesus is the Word of God; God’s Message of Salvation.

Jesus is our salvation.


The scripture plainly refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.


And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:22


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:1-6



And the Angel of the LORD said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. Zechariah 12:8



Jesus is Lord; YHWH the Lord God, who appeared as the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament before He became flesh.


Angels are sons of God.

The Angel of the Lord is The Son of God.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.



JLB

 

[Edward]

what are we missing someone asked? Well no one has posted this scripture yet from:

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?.../

So there's that. I believe what it amounts to is that many have had Jesus manifest to them. These people are not lying, He said He would manifest to people. So...He has to turn down the spiritual volume of His glory when He manifests to us while we are yet men. So He appears as a man incarnate to us. It doesn't mean He is not a Spirit. He can use and appear in any form that He wants to to us. He can not appear to us in His full glory and power because we would die.

Ok, about Moses. That was interesting and I think I have an answer for that. Why did God tell Moses that He was wrong and has not seen him? Simple. People in Biblical days (or at least certainly, Moses) had bigger expectations in his heart when he asked to see God. They were more spiritual people back then, and expected more. And God looks at the heart, right? So Moses had to have in full glory, in his heart so God had to say no you can't. Because He wasn't done with Moses yet and God did not want Moses to die yet. So Moses got a watered down vision of God. So he did but he didn't, understand?

I *think* anyway, lol.

Now, when the Lord returns again to earth at the 2nd coming, He is coming in full glory and His enemies will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming...
and I'll bet a dollar in the moment before the Lords enemies see Him coming in glory...there will be a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (!!), the Lords people will be transformed (and then will be able to withstand the presence of the Lord God so will not die!)

I have heard a couple different testimonies about people who were taken up to the third heaven, and they were in the presence of the Lord (or about to be) and were given a specific fruit from a tree there with the instruction to, eat this and it will help increase your capacity to be able withstand the presence of the Lord.

The first testimony that I heard about that, I took it with a grain of salt. But when I heard the same thing from a different believers testimony then I had to sit up and take notice of it.

This is what has been missing in this thread. The reconciliation.

 

[jmt356]

And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:22


I believe they saw the Son of God.

Who appeared to them as well as Moses and Hagar.


Do you believe the Son of God is God?




JLB

Hagar, Moses and Manoah all saw angels of the Lord. After Moses initially saw an angel of God through a burning bush (Exo 3:2), he later saw God’s back (Exo 33:20-23).

I do not believe Jesus is God in a fully identical and coterminous sense. God is a Trinity; Jesus is a member of that Trinity.
However, Jesus is God in an ontological and metaphysical sense (i.e., in essence) only.

Colossians 1:15, Colossians 2:9 and Hebrews 1:3 reveal that Jesus is the “image” of God; that in Jesus the fullness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form; and that Jesus is the express image of God’s person. Jesus, as a member of the Trinity, is the image and manifestation of God, a bodily form in which the Godhead dwells as an image of God’s glory. Jesus is thus not God in the coterminous sense of the word. There are certain qualities that Jesus holds that God does not hold (e.g., he did not know the hour the world would pass away (Mark 13:32)) and certain qualities that God holds that Jesus does not hold (e.g., God is a Trinity (three persons in one), but Jesus is one person). Jesus is thus not identical to God in every possible way, though He is God in essence.

 

[JLB]

Hagar, Moses and Manoah all saw angels of the Lord. After Moses initially saw an angel of God through a burning bush (Exo 3:2), he later saw God’s back (Exo 33:20-23).

The text does not say they saw “an” angel of the Lord.

It plainly says The Angel of the Lord.


Manoa saw God, the Angel of the Lord.

Not “an“ angel of the Lord.

Jesus the Son of God appeared as the Angel, or Messenger of the Lord. A messenger brings a message or word from another.

Jesus is the Word of God; God’s Message of Salvation.

Jesus is our salvation.


The scripture plainly refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.


And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:22


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:1-6


And the Angel of the LORD said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. Zechariah 12:8



Jesus is Lord; YHWH the Lord God, who appeared as the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament before He became flesh.


Angels are sons of God.

The Angel of the Lord is The Son of God.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I do not believe Jesus is God in a fully identical and coterminous sense. God is a Trinity; Jesus is a member of that Trinity.
However, Jesus is God in an ontological and metaphysical sense (i.e., in essence) only.

Colossians 1:15, Colossians 2:9 and Hebrews 1:3 reveal that Jesus is the “image” of God; that in Jesus the fullness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form; and that Jesus is the express image of God’s person. Jesus, as a member of the Trinity, is the image and manifestation of God, a bodily form in which the Godhead dwells as an image of God’s glory. Jesus is thus not God in the coterminous sense of the word. There are certain qualities that Jesus holds that God does not hold (e.g., he did not know the hour the world would pass away (Mark 13:32)) and certain qualities that God holds that Jesus does not hold (e.g., God is a Trinity (three persons in one), but Jesus is one person). Jesus is thus not identical to God in every possible way, though He is God in essence.

Jesus is the Lord God; YHWH, the Savior of the world.

He became flesh, and died for our sins.

He is the only begotten of the Father.

He created the heavens and the earth.

He is omnipresent and is able to dwell in all men who call upon Him in true repentance.


Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

What the story of Manoah and his wife teaches us is that some people might believe that they have seen God, but might be mistaken. Perhaps that is what happened with Jacob when he proclaimed, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” (Gen 32:30). Perhaps he did not see God, but rather, he saw and angel or a mere man, whom he mistook for God.

While I agree with your reasoning in your previous post, I disagree with this section.

Seeing God face to face is different in Jewish thought than seeing Gods face. I have addressed this earlier, but to summarize, seeing God face to face is to be understood that God spoke to Jacob and Moses in plain language, as one friend speaks to another friend.

seeing Gods face is to see all of Gods glory. The face of Moses shone after being in the presence of the Lord and he had to wear a veil. Had Moses seen Gods full Glory ( Gods face), the longing to be with God would be irresistible. In this instance, death is not a punishment, as in humanity is forbidden to see Gods face. In other words, It is not a negative commandment. Instead, it is a proclamation on how awesome our God is.

Revelation speaks of a day when we will be in Gods full presence, and we will see God in all of His glory. Every tear will be wiped away and all the questions we have will be satisfied. When that day comes, we will see Gods face.

 

[jmt356]

My oh my, you are unable to support believing in Jesus as being God.
What kind of
Christianity runs this forum?
Yes, I'm speaking to you too stovebolts.

My oh my, you are unable to support believing in Jesus as being God.
What kind of
Christianity runs this forum?
Yes, I'm speaking to you too stovebolts.

Truthfrees is not denying that everything in the Bible is true. He is denying the truth of everything that every individual in the Bible states. This is an important distinction. Truthfrees is correct. There are many instances where individuals in the Bible state something that is not true.

For example:
- About four hundred prophets said to the king of Israel that the Lord will give Ramoth Gilead into the king’s hand (1Ki 22:6). They were all wrong. Micaiah proclaimed the truth to the king of Israel: A deceiving spirit had been sent to the mouths of the king’s prophets, but in reality, the Lord “decreed disaster” for the king of Israel (1Ki 22:23). Indeed, the king of Israel was injured and killed in battle (1Ki 22:35).
- Herod stated that he wanted to worship Jesus (Mat 2:8). However, his true intent was to kill Jesus (Mat 2:13).
- The Pharisees said that Jesus spoke blasphemy (Luke 5:21). What they said was not true. Jesus could not commit blasphemy by forgiving sins because He was the Son of God and had authority to forgive sins.

The Bible may be accurate in recording what certain individual stated. This does not mean, however, that everything that every individual in the Bible stated was true. Truthfrees is stating that when Manoah stated that he saw God, Manoah could have been mistaken, just like many others (the four hundred prophets of the king of Israel, the Pharisees, etc.) were mistaken.

 

[jmt356]

Jesus is the Lord God; YHWH, the Savior of the world.

He became flesh, and died for our sins.

He is the only begotten of the Father.

He created the heavens and the earth.

He is omnipresent and is able to dwell in all men who call upon Him in true repentance.


Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.




JLB

JLB states that angels are spirits. If that is true, then the one member of the Godhead that is the most unlike angels is Jesus. Unlike “God” (i.e., the Godhead), who is spirit (John 4:24), and the Holy Spirit, who is a spirit, Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15). Therefore, if the angels that appeared to Manoah and Hagar were “spirits,” then they were probably not Jesus. They may have been the Godhead, or the Father, or perhaps the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of God or a messenger of God. But they were probably not Jesus.

I am not sure I agree that Jesus is omnipresent. Perhaps He was omnipresent before the incarnation, but once He came into the world as a man, he “emptied himself” (Php 2:7) of His divinity and was no longer omnipresent. His presence was limited to that of a human child. Even after His death and resurrection, he took on a bodily form, with scars (see John 20:25-27). Today, He sits at the right hand of the Father (Mark 14:62). If He were omnipresent, He would be on all sides of the Father.

 

[JLB]

JLB states that angels are spirits.

Yes, angels are spirits.

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
Hebrews 1:7


I thought everyone knew this.




JLB

 

[jmt356]

While I agree with your reasoning in your previous post, I disagree with this section.

Seeing God face to face is different in Jewish thought than seeing Gods face. I have addressed this earlier, but to summarize, seeing God face to face is to be understood that God spoke to Jacob and Moses in plain language, as one friend speaks to another friend.

seeing Gods face is to see all of Gods glory. The face of Moses shone after being in the presence of the Lord and he had to wear a veil. Had Moses seen Gods full Glory ( Gods face), the longing to be with God would be irresistible. In this instance, death is not a punishment, as in humanity is forbidden to see Gods face. In other words, It is not a negative commandment. Instead, it is a proclamation on how awesome our God is.

Revelation speaks of a day when we will be in Gods full presence, and we will see God in all of His glory. Every tear will be wiped away and all the questions we have will be satisfied. When that day comes, we will see Gods face.

You stated: (i) when Jacob said he saw God “face to face,” he meant he dialogued directly with God, not that he literally saw God’s face; (ii) seeing God face to face in Jewish thought is distinct from seeing God’s face; and (iii) seing God face to face is to be understood as hearing God speak in plain language, as one friend speaks to another.

What source supports these statements? How do you know what seeing God face to face means in Jewish thought?

 

[JLB]

I am not sure I agree that Jesus is omnipresent.

Jesus Christ dwells in all His people all over the world and in heaven.

...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

He dwelt in all the Old Testament prophets at the same time.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


again


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


This is an example of the Spirit of Christ speaking through an Old Testament prophet.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

You stated: (i) when Jacob said he saw God “face to face,” he meant he dialogued directly with God, not that he literally saw God’s face; (ii) seeing God face to face in Jewish thought is distinct from seeing God’s face; and (iii) seing God face to face is to be understood as hearing God speak in plain language, as one friend speaks to another.

What source supports these statements? How do you know what seeing God face to face means in Jewish thought?

Chabad.org.
Rashi, Ramban, Sages.
The Jewish language is nuanced and is very rich. However, like any language, languages change as do the meanings of words and phrases.

Exodus 33:20

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9894/showrashi/true

https://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/dailywisdom_cdo/aid/2961087/jewish/Wednesday-The-Face-of-G-d.htm

 

[jmt356]

There is a great danger in taking any single passage and discussing it outside of its proper context.

Chapter 33 must be read within its own narrative first. Israel has committed adultry with God before the marriage was consummated. Israel broke covenant which rightly released God from the relationship and God will let them die. Moses intercedes for the people which brings us to Exodus 33:11 where God speaks to Moses face to face. This is simply to say that God is speaking to Moses as one friend speaks to another friend.

However, in Exodus 33:20 we see that not even Moses can see Gods face, or even Moses would die. Seems contradictory, doesn’t it?

Moses has just succeeded in changing Gods course with Israel, and even Moses does not know how God is going to do these great things through such a stubborn people. You see, even Moses realizes that he will not be with these people forever. And it’s a good time to note that Moses was the single greatest prophet just short of the Messiah. And so it is Moses asks, “Show me your glory” which is to say, show me how you will save these people. Who will you send after me?

To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.

Going back to verse 20, we know that Moses face shone brightly when he left the presence of the Lord, and we know Moses was put in the cleft of the rock as God passed by giving a taste of His glory.

Simply put, if any of us could see Gods face, it would be so wonderful, so great, so utterly magnificent we would die just to be in His presence. It would be that awesome.

There will be a day when we will see His face, and what a glorious day that will be.

Revelation 22:4

I am not sure I agree with this. Exodus 33:11 states that “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.”

I would have no issue if Jacob stated in Genesis 32:30 “I spoke with God face to face.” But that is not what he said. He said “I saw God face to face" (Gen 32:30). I do not doubt that man can speak with God, as Moses spoke with God, and as many other prophets, judges and kings did. The issue I have is not with speaking with or hearing God’s voice. My issue is with seeing God and His face. Jacob stated “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” (Gen 32:30). I do not see how that can be true in light of what God states in the next chapter in Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”).

I do not believe that Exodus 33:11 (“The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend”) contradicts Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”). However, I see an issue between Genesis 32:30 (“I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared”) and Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”).

I do not believe Jacob is talking about speaking to God “face to face” as Exodus 33:11 recounts. I believe he is speaking about seeing God “face to face” as Exodus 33:20 recounts. To support this, Jacob states, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” Note that Exodus 33:20 states "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." In Genesis 32:30, Jacob is contrasting the fact that he saw God’s face with the fact that he lived. In response to this wonder, he called the place Peniel. There would not have been this wonder if Jacob only spoke with God “face to face,” as Moses and other prophets did. The expectation of death only arises when one “sees” God.

Therefore, there is a difference between “speaking” with God face to face (Exo 33:11) and seeing God face to face (Gen 32:30). I believe Jacob claimed to have “seen” God face to face in the sense of Genesis 32:30.

You wrote, “To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.” I am not sure this makes sense. Elijah was also at the transfiguration. Did he see Jesus? And if seeing Jesus is the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration, what about others who [JLB maintains] saw Jesus in the OT, including Hagar and Manoah, who saw “the angel of the Lord”? “The angel of the Lord” also spoke with Abraham in Genesis 22:11. If “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, then presumably Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well.

 

[JLB]

Simply put, if any of us could see Gods face, it would be so wonderful, so great, so utterly magnificent we would die just to be in His presence. It would be that awesome.

There will be a day when we will see His face, and what a glorious day that will be.

Revelation 22:4

Yes sir, so true.

A wonderful point that we all can agree on.




JLB