Why did God say to Moses that he could not see God’s face and that no one could see God and live, yet Jacob saw God face to face and lived?

[stovebolts]

I am not sure I agree with this. Exodus 33:11 states that “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.”

I would have no issue if Jacob stated in Genesis 32:30 “I spoke with God face to face.” But that is not what he said. He said “I saw God face to face" (Gen 32:30). I do not doubt that man can speak with God, as Moses spoke with God, and as many other prophets, judges and kings did. The issue I have is not with speaking with or hearing God’s voice. My issue is with seeing God and His face. Jacob stated “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” (Gen 32:30). I do not see how that can be true in light of what God states in the next chapter in Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”).

I do not believe that Exodus 33:11 (“The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend”) contradicts Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”). However, I see an issue between Genesis 32:30 (“I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared”) and Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”).

I do not believe Jacob is talking about speaking to God “face to face” as Exodus 33:11 recounts. I believe he is speaking about seeing God “face to face” as Exodus 33:20 recounts. To support this, Jacob states, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” Note that Exodus 33:20 states "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." In Genesis 32:30, Jacob is contrasting the fact that he saw God’s face with the fact that he lived. In response to this wonder, he called the place Peniel. There would not have been this wonder if Jacob only spoke with God “face to face,” as Moses and other prophets did. The expectation of death only arises when one “sees” God.

Therefore, there is a difference between “speaking” with God face to face (Exo 33:11) and seeing God face to face (Gen 32:30). I believe Jacob claimed to have “seen” God face to face in the sense of Genesis 32:30.

You wrote, “To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.” I am not sure this makes sense. Elijah was also at the transfiguration. Did he see Jesus? And if seeing Jesus is the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration, what about others who [JLB maintains] saw Jesus in the OT, including Hagar and Manoah, who saw “the angel of the Lord”? “The angel of the Lord” also spoke with Abraham in Genesis 22:11. If “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, then presumably Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well.

I understand your disagreements. Thank you for clearly writing them out and explaining your reasoning.
Unfortunatly, at this time Idont have time to give you a long reply. I am getting ready to help my son on a roof and won’t return till late. It may be a few days before I get back to you. But I will try.
thanks,
Jeff

 

[JLB]

If “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, then presumably Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well.

Why would we presume that Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well?


Hagar and Manoa also saw the Angel of the Lord.



JLB

 

[jmt356]

Jesus Christ dwells in all His people all over the world and in heaven.

...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

He dwelt in all the Old Testament prophets at the same time.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


again


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


This is an example of the Spirit of Christ speaking through an Old Testament prophet.




JLB

I believe you might be confusing Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 and 1 Peter 1:10-11 are referring to the “Spirit of Christ.” The “Spirit of Christ” is not Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit. Zechariah 12:1 is referring to the Lord (i.e., the Godhead, or Trinity), not to Jesus. The Lord forms the spirit of man.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. Jesus is not.

 

[jmt356]

Chabad.org.
Rashi, Ramban, Sages.
The Jewish language is nuanced and is very rich. However, like any language, languages change as do the meanings of words and phrases.

Exodus 33:20
View attachment 10305

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9894/showrashi/true

https://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/dailywisdom_cdo/aid/2961087/jewish/Wednesday-The-Face-of-G-d.htm

You linked Chabad.org commentaries to Exo 33:11 ("The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent") and to Exo 33:23 ("Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen").

Is there a commentary to Gen 32:30 ("So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared") that states that what Jacob meant is that he spoke with God, as one speaks to a friend (i.e., in the sense of Exodus 33:11)?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. Jesus is not.

Matthew 18:20 “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them”
John 14:23 “if a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him,”

When you say that Jesus is not omnipresent, are you referring to the human nature of Christ and not the divine nature?
... or does Christ not have a "human" and a "divine" nature?

Premise 1: Christ is God John 20:28
Premise 2: God is omnipresent (Jeremiah 23:23-24) and immutable Malachi 3:6
Conclusion: Christ's divine nature is omnipresent and this cannot change

Premise 1: Christ has a human nature ("the Word became flesh")
Premise 2: Humans are not omnipresent
Conclusion: Christ human nature is not omnipresent

Hypostatic Union: There was an union of the two natures, but no change of the Deity into the humanity, or of the humanity into the Deity: both preserved their peculiar properties. The humanity was changed by a communication of excellent gifts from the divine nature, not by being brought into an equality with it, for that was impossible that a creature should become equal to the Creator. Stephen Charnock

 

[jmt356]

Why would we presume that Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well?


Hagar and Manoa also saw the Angel of the Lord.



JLB

Here is my post in its full context:

You wrote, “To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.” I am not sure this makes sense. Elijah was also at the transfiguration. Did he see Jesus? And if seeing Jesus is the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration, what about others who [JLB maintains] saw Jesus in the OT, including Hagar and Manoah, who saw “the angel of the Lord”? “The angel of the Lord” also spoke with Abraham in Genesis 22:11. If “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, then presumably Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well.

If we see Moses at the transfiguration because Moses saw Jesus in the Old Testament, then others who saw Jesus in the Old Testament (i.e., Abraham, who evidently saw Him in the three men who visited him; Hagar, who saw Him as “the angel of the Lord”; Jacob, who saw Him in a man with whom he wrestled; Manoah, who saw Him as “the angel of the Lord”) would have also been at the transfiguration. However, they were not. Only Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount of transfiguration.

 

[stovebolts]

You linked Chabad.org commentaries to Exo 33:11 ("The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent") and to Exo 33:23 ("Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen").

Is there a commentary to Gen 32:30 ("So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared") that states that what Jacob meant is that he spoke with God, as one speaks to a friend (i.e., in the sense of Exodus 33:11)?

This is where an understanding of the Hebrew language comes in. Although I am not aware of any commentary on Genesis 32:30, (its actually verse 31 in the Hebrew Bible) you may or may not find this interesting with their language.

https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/424441/jewish/The-Jewish-Heart.htm

Only when we turn around do we realize the truth, the inner essence, and then we are “face to face,” which does not only mean that we can finally look at each other, but more so, that we can look in each other—for the root of the word for face, panim, is the same as pnimiyut, which means “innerness.”

 

[stovebolts]

I am not sure I agree with this. Exodus 33:11 states that “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.”

I understand. My closest friends know me, where as my aquaintanences only know of me. My friends see into me because they know the inner me. Moses has an intimate relationship with God, Just as Jacob had an intimate encounter with the Angel of the Lord. If you recall, Moses just had a discussion with God about the Angel of the Lord continuing to go before them.

I would have no issue if Jacob stated in Genesis 32:30 “I spoke with God face to face.” But that is not what he said. He said “I saw God face to face" (Gen 32:30). I do not doubt that man can speak with God, as Moses spoke with God, and as many other prophets, judges and kings did. The issue I have is not with speaking with or hearing God’s voice. My issue is with seeing God and His face. Jacob stated “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared” (Gen 32:30). I do not see how that can be true in light of what God states in the next chapter in Exodus 33:20 (“you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live”).

This is where a literal reading can confuse us. The term face to face carries the understanding that there is an open relationship between two parties where there is a deep connection and understanding between the two parties.

Seeing God face to face could be understood perhaps by saying we’ve had an encounter with God and a mutual understanding occurred. This is not the same as seeing Gods face because to see Gods face is to say we fully understand God. Yes, we have glimmers and encounters with God, but we all still wrestle with Him and we all have unanswered questions. We have questions because we do not see as God sees. In other words, we cannot grasp what God is doing in every situation. We cannot see His face which is to say we are incapable of fully and completely understand God. If we could, it would be so grand we would die because it’s so great.

Again, Revelation teaches us that there will be a day when every tear is wiped away, and every question will be answered. That day will not be in this world, but instead will be in the world to come when our bodies are resurrected. On that Day, we will see Gods face. In other words, we will be in Gods divine presence and God will be revealed in all His glory.

You wrote, “To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration.” I am not sure this makes sense. Elijah was also at the transfiguration. Did he see Jesus? And if seeing Jesus is the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration, what about others who [JLB maintains] saw Jesus in the OT, including Hagar and Manoah, who saw “the angel of the Lord”? “The angel of the Lord” also spoke with Abraham in Genesis 22:11. If “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, then presumably Abraham would have been at the transfiguration as well.

First, names are extremely important in Jewish thought. The two greatest prophets in Israel were Moses ( because of his love for Israel) and Elijah, who was taken in a whirlwind.

In Jewish thought, when Elijah returns, he will usher in the Messianic era. This is why John the Baptist is so closely related to Elijah.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/504495/jewish/Why-Is-Elijah-the-Prophet-Invited-to-the-Seder.htm

Moses is at the Transfiguration because he asked YHVH to “Show me your glory”. (There is more) and Elijah is there to usher in the Messianic era.

 

[JLB]

If we see Moses at the transfiguration because Moses saw Jesus in the Old Testament,

That is not what is being said.

Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration because it was God’s will for Peter, James and John, the leadership of the disciples to witness Jesus being transfigured and appearing with Moses and Elijah, who in the Hebrew mindset represented the law and the prophets.


These three were witness, of who Christ is and His authority.

Later they would also witness Him raised from the dead.

This would also establish these three authority among the followers of Jesus Christ.

Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.


There are probably several more reasons why God chose Moses and Elijah to appear with Jesus and the three on the Mount of Transfiguration.


Secondly, there could have been a great cloud of witnesses there with Moses and Elijah, as well, but the scriptures only give us a tiny window into that incredible meeting.





JLB

 

[JLB]

And if seeing Jesus is the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration

I‘m not saying the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration with Jesus is seeing Him in the Old Testament.


Did Elijah see Jesus in the Old Testament?



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I‘m not saying the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration with Jesus is seeing Him in the Old Testament.


Did Elijah see Jesus in the Old Testament?



JLB

Malachi 3:22 - 23

22Keep in remembrance the teaching of Moses, My servant-the laws and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.		כבזִכְר֕וּ תּוֹרַ֖ת מֹשֶׁ֣ה עַבְדִּ֑י אֲשֶׁר֩ צִוִּ֨יתִי אוֹת֚וֹ בְחֹרֵב֙ עַל־כָּל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל חֻקִּ֖ים וּמִשְׁפָּטִֽים:
23Lo, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord,

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111833/jewish/Elijah-the-Prophet.htm

 

[jmt356]

I‘m not saying the reason for a person to appear at the transfiguration with Jesus is seeing Him in the Old Testament.

Did Elijah see Jesus in the Old Testament?

JLB

It does not appear that Eljiah saw Jesus in the Old Testament. If he did, it doesn’t appear to have been recorded. Elijah spoke with God, and encountered God in the form of a “gentle whisper”:

1Ki 19:11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by." Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
1Ki 19:12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

However, I find nothing that suggests that the whisper was Jesus’s.

 

[jmt356]

I understand. My closest friends know me, where as my aquaintanences only know of me. My friends see into me because they know the inner me. Moses has an intimate relationship with God, Just as Jacob had an intimate encounter with the Angel of the Lord. If you recall, Moses just had a discussion with God about the Angel of the Lord continuing to go before them.


This is where a literal reading can confuse us. The term face to face carries the understanding that there is an open relationship between two parties where there is a deep connection and understanding between the two parties.

Seeing God face to face could be understood perhaps by saying we’ve had an encounter with God and a mutual understanding occurred. This is not the same as seeing Gods face because to see Gods face is to say we fully understand God. Yes, we have glimmers and encounters with God, but we all still wrestle with Him and we all have unanswered questions. We have questions because we do not see as God sees. In other words, we cannot grasp what God is doing in every situation. We cannot see His face which is to say we are incapable of fully and completely understand God. If we could, it would be so grand we would die because it’s so great.

Again, Revelation teaches us that there will be a day when every tear is wiped away, and every question will be answered. That day will not be in this world, but instead will be in the world to come when our bodies are resurrected. On that Day, we will see Gods face. In other words, we will be in Gods divine presence and God will be revealed in all His glory.

First, names are extremely important in Jewish thought. The two greatest prophets in Israel were Moses ( because of his love for Israel) and Elijah, who was taken in a whirlwind.

In Jewish thought, when Elijah returns, he will usher in the Messianic era. This is why John the Baptist is so closely related to Elijah.

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/504495/jewish/Why-Is-Elijah-the-Prophet-Invited-to-the-Seder.htm

Moses is at the Transfiguration because he asked YHVH to “Show me your glory”. (There is more) and Elijah is there to usher in the Messianic era.

I understand your point to be as follows:

When Jacob said he saw God “face to face,” he meant he dialogued directly with God, not that he literally saw God’s face, which no man can see and live (Exo 33:20). Seeing God “face to face” in Jewish thought is distinct from seeing God’s face. Seeing God face to face is to be understood as hearing God speak in plain language, as one friend speaks to another.

This is made clear in Exodus 33, where God states “no one may see me and live” (Exo 33:20), and yet, just 9 verses earlier, Exodus 33:11 reports that “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend” (Exo 33:11). Clearly, then, speaking to God “face to face,” as in Exodus 33:11, is not the same as seeing God’s face, as in Exodus 33:20.

Jacob’s affirmation in Genesis 32:30 that he saw God “face to face” must be interpreted according to the meaning contained in Exodus 33:11, that is, to mean that Jacob spoke to God as Moses did, “as one speaks to a friend” (Exo 33:11). This is the meaning customarily attributed to the phrase “face to face” in Jewish through and in the Hebrew language. Chabad.org (https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/424441/jewish/The-Jewish-Heart.htm) speaks of the expression “face to face” as referring to a meaning of fellowship, love and inner communication, as the word for face, panim, is the same as pnimiyut, which means “innerness”:

Only when we turn around do we realize the truth, the inner essence, and then we are “face to face,” which does not only mean that we can finally look at each other, but more so, that we can look in each other—for the root of the word for face, panim, is the same as pnimiyut, which means “innerness.”

In the same way that Moses spoke with God “face to face” in Exodus 33:11, Jacob “saw God face to face” in Genesis 32:30. Therefore, Jacob’s “face to face” encounter with God is not to be understood literally, but rather, as a figurative reference to encountering God, who manifested himself to Jacob, but not in his full power and glory.

 

[JLB]

It does not appear that Eljiah saw Jesus in the Old Testament. If he did, it doesn’t appear to have been recorded. Elijah spoke with God, and encountered God in the form of a “gentle whisper”:

1Ki 19:11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by." Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
1Ki 19:12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

However, I find nothing that suggests that the whisper was Jesus’s.

Exactly.


The point is, those who with Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration were there because God wanted them there, and not because they saw Jesus in the Old Testament.



I think we agree on this.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I understand your point to be as follows:

When Jacob said he saw God “face to face,” he meant he dialogued directly with God, not that he literally saw God’s face, which no man can see and live (Exo 33:20). Seeing God “face to face” in Jewish thought is distinct from seeing God’s face. Seeing God face to face is to be understood as hearing God speak in plain language, as one friend speaks to another.

This is made clear in Exodus 33, where God states “no one may see me and live” (Exo 33:20), and yet, just 9 verses earlier, Exodus 33:11 reports that “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend” (Exo 33:11). Clearly, then, speaking to God “face to face,” as in Exodus 33:11, is not the same as seeing God’s face, as in Exodus 33:20.

Jacob’s affirmation in Genesis 32:30 that he saw God “face to face” must be interpreted according to the meaning contained in Exodus 33:11, that is, to mean that Jacob spoke to God as Moses did, “as one speaks to a friend” (Exo 33:11). This is the meaning customarily attributed to the phrase “face to face” in Jewish through and in the Hebrew language. Chabad.org (https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/424441/jewish/The-Jewish-Heart.htm) speaks of the expression “face to face” as referring to a meaning of fellowship, love and inner communication, as the word for face, panim, is the same as pnimiyut, which means “innerness”:



In the same way that Moses spoke with God “face to face” in Exodus 33:11, Jacob “saw God face to face” in Genesis 32:30. Therefore, Jacob’s “face to face” encounter with God is not to be understood literally, but rather, as a figurative reference to encountering God, who manifested himself to Jacob, but not in his full power and glory.

I appreciate your ability to articulate so clearly.

 

[jmt356]

Exactly.

The point is, those who with Jesus on the Mount of transfiguration were there because God wanted them there, and not because they saw Jesus in the Old Testament.

I think we agree on this.

JLB

Thank you. The reason I drafted that reply was because stovebolts wrote in Post #21, “To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration,” to which JLB gave two thumbs up in Post #22. I do not believe we see Moses in the transfiguration because Moses saw Jesus in the Old Testament. If that were the criterion, then all who saw Christ in the Old Testament (Abraham, Hagar, Jacob, etc.) would have also been present at the transfiguration, and Elijah would not have been there.

I believe we see Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration with Jesus because they represent the law and the power of God, respectively:
- Moses is present because he was chosen by God to give the law to Israel. Jesus is the fulfillment of that law.
- Elijah is present because he ushered in the Messianic era in which the power of God through which Elijah performed signs and wonders would be given to all through Christ, in whose name the Father sent the Holy Spirit.

And so, we see in Moses and Elijah the law, which judges us, and the power of God, which saves us. In Jesus, the law was fulfilled and the power of God was given to all who believe. He thus fulfilled the law and the prophets. The transfiguration is a snapshot of this timeless truth.

 

[JLB]

“To JLB point, Moses sees Jesus, which is why we see Moses at the transfiguration,”

I believe that Moses on the Mountain with the Lord for 40 days was a moment that transcended time which is different than just seeing Jesus in the Old Testament.

This I believe is what Stovebolts was getting at, and I believe he and I agree on this point.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I believe that Moses on the Mountain with the Lord for 40 days was a moment that transcended time which is different than just seeing Jesus in the Old Testament.

This I believe is what Stovebolts was getting at, and I believe he and I agree on this point.


JLB

Yes, we are in full agreement.
Moses wrote about Jesus (the messiah) because God revealed to Moses on the mountain that He would send a Messiah. Thus, “Show me your Glory”.

If you recall, God was going to wipe out the Israelites and start over with Moses. Moses, because of his great love for the people intercedes for them. Moses goes on to say if God won’t send His angel ahead of them (That is to say, to protect them) Then Moses would not go, and would die with them. In other words, Moses was willing to lay down his life for them.

Moses is in great distress on the mountain. He cares deeply for the people, but fears for them because of their stiff necks and hardness of heart. Moses has succeeded in rescuing them from Gods wrath, but Moses knows he is old, and won’t be around forever? Ohh God, who will you send when I am gone? Who will save these people who me I love? Show me your glory.

Deuteronomy 18:14-22
Hebrews 3:1-6

 

[daninthelionsden]

This thread reminds me of the song "I Can Only Imagine". What an extraordinarily wondrous sight awaits us.