Why Didn't Jesus Know Everything?

[Brother Mike]

Smaller:

Fortunately the early church fathers did a fairly good job of defining these matters and finished off the entire exercise by drawing a non-exiting circle around the whole enchilada and termed it rightfully...

First I am trying to help you. You ignored my other post. I don't believe Trinity came from some heathen triune god thing. There is a reason trinity showed up around the 14th century. There was a teaching (Most likely from the School of Alexandria) that Jesus must be a demi god of some sort. Christians believed in only One and true God. There are reasons Doctrines are made and are made to protect.
You need to understand that Trinity is just a doctrine. A doctrine is a foundation for a base of belief's, and many at the time would not have any talk of there being more than one God. God had warned many times that He is the Only God, and to have a belief outside of that would be idolatry.

So, I believe this is where the Trinity doctrine came in. Because there can only be ONE God, there has to be a doctrine to support it. The whole concept is to defend a One God stance and not make Jesus out to be a demi god , or have a bunch of other gods running around. The problem is that those that made and formed the Doctrine had many problematic scriptures to contended with. Being a doctrine to defend a One God position and still keep Jesus the One true God they said that there is only ONE God made of 3 persons who are each fully God that make the One and true God. God became these persons as needed so still One God manifested in 3 different ways for Mankind.
The problem was those counter scriptures, so it became the Mystery of the Christian Faith. This put it in a foundational doctrine that was a base and did not need to be fully explained, the bottom line though is that there can only be ONE God, and not many gods. The concept of two Gods was not acceptable at all. So Trinity is a doctrine that refutes this concept of more than one God.

Trinity is never mentioned in the bible, nor triune or anything close so it's a doctrine for a foundation of belief. Just like a healing doctrine or prosperity doctrine or an election doctrine. Each doctrine is a foundation of belief's, that does not mean they are perfect and does not mean there are no counter scriptures that can't be explained. You have to understand what your trying to defend and if it's even can be defended without lots of problematic scriptures. There is a reason why the Mystery of Christian faith is included in the Doctrine itself. It's part of the Doctrine to believe there is but ONE God.

Jesus is the only way to eternal life:
Here is a doctrine that can't be refuted and no counter scriptures. It is plain and very clear.

So understand what your trying to defend, where it came from, and why the Doctrine is important.

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm, jesus if he wasn't the father then how can he be the god that he was worshipped?

Jesus said if I lay my life down I will pick it up again and later paul says that the father raised him. which is true? both or none?

 

[Elijah674]

Christ was working a Godhead plan. After Eve & Adam sinned, it was then that the plan was put into motion. Holy Spirit God & Jehovah God had agreed to be secondary until Christ was ORDAINED as New Testament (the second Adam) perfect! John 20:17 This is the fulfillment of what is the 'NEW' Covenant. (see Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15)

This is the 1 John 2:7 total Eternal Covenant!

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Smaller:

Fortunately the early church fathers did a fairly good job of defining these matters and finished off the entire exercise by drawing a non-exiting circle around the whole enchilada and termed it rightfully...

First I am trying to help you. You ignored my other post.

Uh, no, I just know that whenever somebody does the throwdown on the Trinity that another inferior box is being put into play before they even start.

I have a most healthy regard for the Mystery of the matters of Gods Appearances within creation.

No true Trinitarian EVER lets go of the term MYSTERY.

I don't believe Trinity came from some heathen triune god thing. There is a reason trinity showed up around the 14th century. There was a teaching (Most likely from the School of Alexandria) that Jesus must be a demi god of some sort.

There were vast numbers of inferior understandings. We could list a couple dozen various alternatives pretty fast.

Christians believed in only One and true God.

And that holds true on Trinitarian as well.

There are reasons Doctrines are made and are made to protect.
You need to understand that Trinity is just a doctrine. A doctrine is a foundation for a base of belief's, and many at the time would not have any talk of there being more than one God. God had warned many times that He is the Only God, and to have a belief outside of that would be idolatry.

There is no use trying to run the phony scare tactic by me. Trinitarianism is not a 3 God position. Sorry.

So, I believe this is where the Trinity doctrine came in. Because there can only be ONE God, there has to be a doctrine to support it. The whole concept is to defend a One God stance and not make Jesus out to be a demi god , or have a bunch of other gods running around. The problem is that those that made and formed the Doctrine had many problematic scriptures to contended with. Being a doctrine to defend a One God position and still keep Jesus the One true God they said that there is only ONE God made of 3 persons who are each fully God that make the One and true God. God became these persons as needed so still One God manifested in 3 different ways for Mankind.
The problem was those counter scriptures, so it became the Mystery of the Christian Faith.

It's only a problem when one attempts to divide. That isn't required.

This put it in a foundational doctrine that was a base and did not need to be fully explained,

There is no 'full' explanation available or required. Those who believe that is the case have no appreciation of the Mystery factor.

the bottom line though is that there can only be ONE God, and not many gods. The concept of two Gods was not acceptable at all. So Trinity is a doctrine that refutes this concept of more than one God.

No one said there are 'many' Gods. Trinitarianism doesn't make that case.

Trinity is never mentioned in the bible, nor triune or anything close so it's a doctrine for a foundation of belief. Just like a healing doctrine or prosperity doctrine or an election doctrine. Each doctrine is a foundation of belief's, that does not mean they are perfect and does not mean there are no counter scriptures that can't be explained. You have to understand what your trying to defend and if it's even can be defended without lots of problematic scriptures. There is a reason why the Mystery of Christian faith is included in the Doctrine itself. It's part of the Doctrine to believe there is but ONE God.

It would appear that you are trying to raise a non-existing specter to tear down.

s

 

[Brother Mike]

The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[6] According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds". While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.[6] The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.

Smaller, my point was that the whole doctrine was made to protect the One God only belief. The OT is filled with this and there was understanding (Lot's coming from Alexandria) that Jesus was just one Deity. No wonder the place burnt down. To believe in two gods would be heresy.

If you believe in this Trinity Doctrine then all good. Don't lump others that don't into being in error or a JW. Just recognize that the doctrine has enough scriptural issues to at least be respectful of those that don't share the view. That is all I was trying to get across.

Mike.

 

[John Zain]

I used to be trinitarian ...

The Triune Godhead is definitely taught in Scripture, especially that ...
Jesus is God, is equal to Father God, is the Creator, is the Giver of eternal life, etc.
(there are fewer references to the Holy Spirit being God).

So, IMO, to simplify things ...
A person who does not believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh
simply does not believe what the Scriptures clearly say.

Many dozens of references stand at the ready!

 

[smaller]

The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[6] According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds". While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.[6] The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.

Smaller, my point was that the whole doctrine was made to protect the One God only belief. The OT is filled with this and there was understanding (Lot's coming from Alexandria) that Jesus was just one Deity. No wonder the place burnt down. To believe in two gods would be heresy.

If you believe in this Trinity Doctrine then all good. Don't lump others that don't into being in error or a JW. Just recognize that the doctrine has enough scriptural issues to at least be respectful of those that don't share the view. That is all I was trying to get across.

Mike.

Most who buck against it usually do so from false presentations of it.

s

 

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[Randy]

I don't agree with that teaching. I do agree that the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. The Father in the Son. The Son in the Father. In that manner they are One.

This sounds like you believe in 2 Gods or one God and one lesser god.

Either way, you are right. You cannot debate it since it goes against the forums' SOF.

Its reads like a Son who God (Jesus's God) willed HIS (One True God) fullness to dwell in. Thats the Father IN the Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation Of Gods being. As we also read in REV Jesus has this name on Him "The Word of God"

All things were created by Gods command and by Gods Will. (Father) Jesus had a hand in everything that the Father did.

Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit "MY SPIRIT" So if Jesus's Spirit is God then how does that hold to One God?

The answer to your question though is that the Father kept the date to Himself as Jesus stated.

R.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit "MY SPIRIT" So if Jesus's Spirit is God then how does that hold to One God?

You're still believing in two Gods Randy.
You're trying to make sense out of something that is a mystery.

 

[Elijah674]

Still there are three before Eve & Adams sin! Jehovah God and Christ God with the Holly Spirit God! (Ghost) Whom Eve & Adam lost & needed to be reborn.
And then we find Heb. 11:1-3 with verse 13 come into play!

And from there on... much confusion abounds! Such as satans first lie being believed as truth. Gen. 3:4

--Elijah

 

[Free]

Concerning the OP, here is the overall problem:

1. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly man.
2. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly God.
3. The Bible shows that the Father is God.
4. The Bible shows that Jesus is the Son, who is separate and distinct from the Father.
5. The Bible shows that there is only one God.

This is in part what the doctrine of the Trinity attempts to make sense of. Indeed, any Christology and theology proper must make sense of all those points without forcing one to be subject to another. To reiterate what I stated earlier in the thread:

JW's, like every anti-trinitarian I've had discussions with, pit the humanity of Christ against his deity. They pit passages of Scripture speaking of his humanity, which no trinitarian denies, against those passages which clearly speak of his deity. And then they choose to reinterpret the passages speaking of his deity to mean something else, without any warrant for doing so. They turn Jesus' nature it into an either/or when it is really a both/and.

Just as the trinitarian should not ignore or reinterpret those passages speaking of Jesus' humanity in favor of those speaking of his deity, neither should the anti-trinitarian ignore or reinterpret those passages speaking of Jesus' deity in favor of those speaking of his humanity. Both are equal in error.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free:

JW's, like every anti-trinitarian I've had discussions with, pit the humanity of Christ against his deity. They pit passages of Scripture speaking of his humanity, which no trinitarian denies, against those passages which clearly speak of his deity. And then they choose to reinterpret the passages speaking of his deity to mean something else, without any warrant for doing so. They turn Jesus' nature it into an either/or when it is really a both/and.

Is it possible not to mention JW's? There are a whole bunch of us that see Jesus and the Father here at the start of time, Jesus always with His father and Holy Spirit. If there is One God, then for us one of them is not fully God without the other. You add a bunch of math stuff that does not even make sense to say ONE God. It has nothing to do with JW's view as this argument going strong when Erasmus added the comma to the 3rd edition Greek text to just keep the peace. There was a war then and now without the false input of the JW's. Erasmus did not buy into the Trinity concept.

So when Jesus said the He don't know the day or hour, but only His father knows. People like me believe what the Lord said, and don't add or take from it. Others have a doctrine that interprets the scripture for them calling Jesus a liar. Jesus would never misrepresent His Father or Himself, saying my Father is greater than I. Some believe He was just joking around about that, or that in his diminished flesh form he was Not God in the flesh.

So, one simple question "Why did not Jesus know" and it turns into a Trinity debate and what the JW's believe, when Jesus already answered the question with "I Don't Know" Trinity belief, or JW belief should not even enter in and we should take the Kings Word, trust Him and believe Him.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Free:

JW's, like every anti-trinitarian I've had discussions with, pit the humanity of Christ against his deity. They pit passages of Scripture speaking of his humanity, which no trinitarian denies, against those passages which clearly speak of his deity. And then they choose to reinterpret the passages speaking of his deity to mean something else, without any warrant for doing so. They turn Jesus' nature it into an either/or when it is really a both/and.

Is it possible not to mention JW's? There are a whole bunch of us that see Jesus and the Father here at the start of time, Jesus always with His father and Holy Spirit. If there is One God, then for us one of them is not fully God without the other.

You're a JW? What is the official position on this? I'm quite certain that you'll find I'm right, that JW's are anti-trinitarian. Not to mention the OP brought up JW's, so I'm answering his post. I

]You add a bunch of math stuff that does not even make sense to say ONE God. It has nothing to do with JW's view as this argument going strong when Erasmus added the comma to the 3rd edition Greek text to just keep the peace. There was a war then and now without the false input of the JW's. Erasmus did not buy into the Trinity concept.

I don't understand what your point is here.

So when Jesus said the He don't know the day or hour, but only His father knows. People like me believe what the Lord said, and don't add or take from it.

Who is doing this? I'm not doing it and I haven't noticed anyone else who has done this.

]Others have a doctrine that interprets the scripture for them calling Jesus a liar. Jesus would never misrepresent His Father or Himself, saying my Father is greater than I. Some believe He was just joking around about that, or that in his diminished flesh form he was Not God in the flesh.

I don't know what you're saying here.

So, one simple question "Why did not Jesus know" and it turns into a Trinity debate and what the JW's believe, when Jesus already answered the question with "I Don't Know"

Read the OP for the answer.

Trinity belief, or JW belief should not even enter in and we should take the Kings Word, trust Him and believe Him.

If God is omniscient, as the Bible makes clear, and Jesus is God in human flesh, as the Bible also makes clear, then it is quite natural to ask why Jesus didn't know. I would be more concerned if that didn't concern someone.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free:

You're a JW? What is the official position on this? I'm quite certain that you'll find I'm right, that JW's are anti-trinitarian. Not to mention the OP brought up JW's, so I'm answering his post. I

No Brother..... We sing songs with 3 in 1 right smack in the middle of the song. Jesus is the Word, and you know. My point was why bring JW up (Not you but way early in these post) in the first place. What they believe is not relevant to anything as far as I understand what they believe.

Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mike View Post

So when Jesus said the He don't know the day or hour, but only His father knows. People like me believe what the Lord said, and don't add or take from it.

Free:

Who is doing this? I'm not doing it and I haven't noticed anyone else who has done this.

My point was using some Doctrine to prove Jesus did not know what He was talking about, when the scripture is pretty clear on it's own. He don't know.

Free:

If God is omniscient, as the Bible makes clear, and Jesus is God in human flesh, as the Bible also makes clear, then it is quite natural to ask why Jesus didn't know. I would be more concerned if that didn't concern someone.

Umm. That sounds pretty valid to me. I guess I would have wondered the same thing not long ago. I just take the Lords Word on it, and have found adding my own spin to scriptures just gets me off track. If Jesus said He now knows in Rev or something then that would change it for me, otherwise I have to stick with what He just said. God is Omniscient, knows the number of hairs on your head, but taking the position of Father and Son then God giving all things to the Son one might think that the Father might be deciding when then letting the Head of the Church know. There is a reason Jesus said He does not know but His father. For me I would take His word on that, or try to find out how that works. We are very limited with what we Know about two beings (One for some) having been here, and always been here. It does not make sense naturally as we are told which came first, the chicken or the egg (chicken) but you understand that God made the chicken and nothing Made God.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Free:

No Brother..... We sing songs with 3 in 1 right smack in the middle of the song. Jesus is the Word, and you know. My point was why bring JW up (Not you but way early in these post) in the first place. What they believe is not relevant to anything as far as I understand what they believe.

It is quite relevant to the question at hand, as per the OP. I have had many talks with JWs, both in my house, at friends' houses, and online, and every single one has attacked the deity of Jesus and denied the Trinity. The NWT is purposely mistranslated to make several passages that speak of the deity of Jesus appear to say something else. The official position of the Watchtower is that Jesus is a created being, not God, and the Trinity is a false doctrine. Do you deny this?

Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mike View Post

Free:


My point was using some Doctrine to prove Jesus did not know what He was talking about, when the scripture is pretty clear on it's own. He don't know.

Who is using doctrine to prove Jesus didn't know what he was talking about? Who has even made the claim that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about?

Free:

If God is omniscient, as the Bible makes clear, and Jesus is God in human flesh, as the Bible also makes clear, then it is quite natural to ask why Jesus didn't know. I would be more concerned if that didn't concern someone.

Umm. That sounds pretty valid to me. I guess I would have wondered the same thing not long ago. I just take the Lords Word on it, and have found adding my own spin to scriptures just gets me off track. If Jesus said He now knows in Rev or something then that would change it for me, otherwise I have to stick with what He just said. God is Omniscient, knows the number of hairs on your head, but taking the position of Father and Son then God giving all things to the Son one might think that the Father might be deciding when then letting the Head of the Church know. There is a reason Jesus said He does not know but His father. For me I would take His word on that, or try to find out how that works.

But that is precisely what we are trying to do here. I don't understand what you're getting at. JW's and anti-trinitarians use this passage to say that "it works," that Jesus' claim to not know is because he isn't God. That's the whole point.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free:

It is quite relevant to the question at hand, as per the OP. I have had many talks with JWs, both in my house, at friends' houses, and online, and every single one has attacked the deity of Jesus and denied the Trinity. The NWT is purposely mistranslated to make several passages that speak of the deity of Jesus appear to say something else. The official position of the Watchtower is that Jesus is a created being, not God, and the Trinity is a false doctrine. Do you deny this?

I get the feeling your not actually reading what I have posted. I am still wondering what the JW's believe have anything to do with the question. I even wonder why anyone cares what the JW's believe. I am not a fan of the trinity concept though, as well as many others. We are the Godhead bodily (The Body of Christ) and the trinity excludes man from God's family. Just one of many reason I don't care for the doctrine. I also don't care for what the JW's believe and not just on their concept of Jesus.

Who is using doctrine to prove Jesus didn't know what he was talking about? Who has even made the claim that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about?

One of many examples I notice trinity dodge is when Jesus said the father is greater than I. If Jesus said so, then it's so. There is really no other questioning here when the Head of the Church speaks. Trinity attempts to remove many things Jesus and the Apostles said to fit their concept of what theos really means. I don't like the Word being changed, the word is suppose to change us.
So, anyone that thinks Jesus does know the day and hour of his coming would have to say that Jesus was not being honest. Some don't like it that cut and dried but it's real simple.

Free

But that is precisely what we are trying to do here. I don't understand what you're getting at. JW's and anti-trinitarians use this passage to say that "it works," that Jesus' claim to not know is because he isn't God. That's the whole point.

Free, I don't know what passages they use, seriously Brother. I know they put "A" for the Word was "A" God and it's not in the Greek. Anti-trinitarian does not equal JW belief's. If Jesus said He don't know, then it ought to be good enough, we can ask him later. It has nothing to do with Him being God, or the Saviour or anything else, if He says it, then it should be end of story. I can't help that the scripture does not fit perfectly into some trinity concept. All doctrines have those problematic scriptures, not just trinity. That was my point, you don't need a trinity doctrine to explain it, and you don't need to bring up the JW's to explain it. What did Jesus say?

The Trinity Doctrine has some major issues. If you want to believe in one God then fine. It would be hard to switch the believe to a Father and Son (Family) where the Father actually was with the son forever. Jesus laid it all down and God sent a actual son, not some part of himself. A son would be no different than a father so both are God, none less than the other. My son is no less human than I am, and He is not worth less. A concept we should all understand.

1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

God send himself? NO His son! This is one of many, many, many scriptures that Jesus is not His Father, or a piece of His Father.

Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Is God speaking to himself here? One of his 3 manifestation? NO, His beloved son, whom He calls God. God is not having an identity crises here having to assure himself.

Is the son the creator? If you mistranslate "DIA" He is.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Did God make himself an heir because he did such a great job? If there is only one then God must have given it to one of his own parts. Like giving my hand money for being a good hand. NO, He has a real son by whom He made all things for and did all things for. The son that was always there with him.

YLT:
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God; (Who? Jesus, the Word that became flesh)
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Everything God the Father did was for and through the Son of God.

YLT:
Col_1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

In Jesus were all things created, through Him and for Him. A Father, who loves and exalted his son.

This is why I don't buy into trinity. No matter how fancy you want to word it, if there is just ONE God, then we have no mediator unless God manifest a piece of himself to mediate with. It's also near impossible to explain to anyone when they start asking. "Who Jesus pray to" "Why two thrones" "where is the Holy Spirits throne" " Why does the Holy Spirit not speak on His own if He is equally God" Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

I can only make everything fit perfectly one way. The Holy Spirit Belongs to God since I don't have a scripture calling Him God and God always had taken ownership of the Holy Spirit. Also, God the Father and God the son have always been. Now I can explain all those questions with no issues.

I have nothing against those that believe in Trinity Doctrine. For me personally though I need every scripture to fit perfectly. I need it to make sense. I am tired of people showing me a picture of an egg to explain something they can't. I also can't get past a new concept of what a Father and Son is. Both can be as one, working as one. both can be as equally important as the other, but a Son is not His Father. Just like the Husband and wife are one flesh. We are, but she is also not me at the same time.

So, if Jesus said he did not know, and you want to believe in a trinity concept. Can't you just say that one part of God's personality did not yet reveal it to the other part that is head of the Church? What is wrong with that? Trinity believes in 3 different parts that do function different. You can keep the doctrine and keep what Jesus said, and He said He don't know as that Part of God deals with the Church.

Sorry so long. God bless you and thanx for hanging in there.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit "MY SPIRIT" So if Jesus's Spirit is God then how does that hold to One God?

You're still believing in two Gods Randy.
You're trying to make sense out of something that is a mystery.

No I don't believe in two Gods. I believe in One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. As scripture shows Jesus, (The Son), is all that the Father is. Its the Father IN Him not another God.

Regardless this is what it states about the Father.

Isaiah 43:10
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Scripture doesn't state even the Father always was. Its states (above) We make such statements that God always was because scripture doesn't show a beginning for God and God created all things by His command and by His Will

Randy

 

[John 8:32]

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

So from this scripture, we are to believe that Christ is inside the right hand of the Father?

Here is another that doesn't fit with a three in one...

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If they are three in one, wouldn't the Father already have the Kingdom?

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Son is subject to whom? Himself?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Just Whom is the Us and Our here?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I get the feeling your not actually reading what I have posted. I am still wondering what the JW's believe have anything to do with the question.

The Jehovahs' Witnesses are at the heart of the question since they were the ones to pose the question to me.
I had no answer so I put it on the forum.
What I see is people unwittingly in agreement with them.

Titus 2:13;

"while we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Christs' 2nd appearing will be of God's "glory" as the 1st was of His "grace".
Then Jesus will be openly manifested not only as "our Savior" but also in all the glory of His majesty or greatness as "God". This is divine glory.