Why Do We Sin?

[Nathan]

Addressing the OP, you surely are on to something for many people, but frighteningly Mike I have sinned before fully aware that God was watching and that I would be judged for it. My heart grew hard as I let the flesh control my actions while the Spirit in me yet testified to me that it was wrong, in spite of my actions (it was a constant conscience prick). I've even had songs of the Spirit rise up in me (almost involuntary humming of worship songs) when I am about to step into sin, which is remarkable, and I am ashamed to say I have willfully ignored it before. I do think this stems from a lack of the fear of the Lord, something which I and all Christians - I believe - need to cultivate more in their life. May God forgive us when we grieve the Spirit He has put in us and willfully transgress His commandments. For if God marked all our transgressions, who could stand?

My 2¢.

~Josh

:yes. That is exactly the same testimony I have. And it led down another road for me that is another topic, but it did have the element of starting to draw me into a rejection of the very existence of God. Scary.

 

[sherri2]

Ever seen a two year old? Ever wondered why we have to discipline children from an early age?

The omniscience argument doesn't hold water when viewed from that angle.

 

[Nathan]

Josh, while I believe what I'm saying, I wouldn't say it's a certain thing. I'm working through the underlying reasons for doing what we do, or have done. Can you say that you would have done what you did with the Person of Jesus at your side? I feel pretty certain that I wouldn't. What's the difference between that situation and the reality of every moment of my life? I know how my behavior is affected when my pastor is around to observe my behavior, and he's a mere man.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I know this is addressed to Josh, but I thought you might like input seeing how you posted the reason why you are looking at this.

I would not have done what I did with the person of Jesus at my side, in the 'flesh', physically there. Well, I would have at least waited till He was around the corner of the house or something. Wait until He went to bed. You know.

Here is the difference for me. I all too often try to make the distinction between 'the spiritual' and who 'I am'. That is, all to often I 'reside' in the flesh, and not in the spirit. I am not going into a discourse here, but Romans speaks very detailed of this. But let it suffice to say that it is ONLY when I walk in the flesh do I sin willfully/outright knowingly. When I am in the Spirit, I DO NOT sin willfully, but sometimes I have found I have sinned unknowingly. Does that make sense? When I am constantly in the Spirit, letting Him train me and guide me, I am constantly aware of His presence. The moment I step away from that true reality, I step into the 'temporal' reality of this world.

That is exactly what the 'media' and popular culture does with our fleshly minds today. They keep us focused on the physical, temporal, here and now things we can see and touch. Let me ask you this;

Was Jesus exaggerating when He said that if our eye was to cause us to sin, to pluck it out? Or if our hand caused us to sin to cut it off?

 

[Nathan]

1Cr 15:31-34 "I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame."



1Cr 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.



1Cr 15:45-49 "Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."



1Cr 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.


Rom 8:10-11 "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."



We must not get ourselves confused with the fact that those who have been crucified with Christ have already been 'sowed' and have risen again with Him. The fact does remain that sin is constantly 'around' us, but not a part of us anymore. Unless the person 'lives' in the flesh. We are not of the flesh, if indeed the same Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead lives in us.

We must understand that we do not have to 'go on sinning' because we have been raise incorruptible with Christ when He was raised from the dead. 1Corinthians deals with the flesh being raised again. Our spirit is now alive, and will be for eternity. We will not all 'sleep', but in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, we will be changed. Our perishable "body" has to be changed. Our mortal "body" has to be changed. But we have already been changed, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Rom 8:9-10 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

 

[Mike]

Not here!



I'd say a 1-on-1 debate is best, so that you don't derail other topics, but I can't imagine how THAT would turn out.

Thanks to those who gave sincere responses to the intent of my OP.

Thread locked!

 

[Mike]

Many posts were deleted from this thread. I gutted this out of all the bickering and side conversations that didn't apply to the OP.

The thread is now opened for a cordial discussion that pertains to the topic at hand.

Please play nice.

 

[Mike]

Ever seen a two year old? Ever wondered why we have to discipline children from an early age?

The omniscience argument doesn't hold water when viewed from that angle.

Is this to say that two-year-olds have the concept of our Omnipresent God? I have 3 children who were 2 years old at one point, so I guess you could say that I've seen one. They couldn't conceive of it, let alone have complete faith in it. I'm not sure how this would nullify the premise of the OP.

 

[Nathan]

Wooohooo....its open! lol

Ok, I know I have shared this with someone else already, but I will post if for the masses to observe and comment if they will.

Hbr 3:10-13 "Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.' As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'" Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

Think about the conditions that were surrounding this time back then. But also think about what this means. It is a direct reference from Psalm 95

Psa 95:7-11 "For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness, when your fathers put me to the test and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work. For forty years I loathed that generation and said, "They are a people who go astray in their heart, and they have not known my ways." Therefore I swore in my wrath, "They shall not enter my rest."

What do we know about Meribah and Massah? Lets look at that passage found in Exodus 17;

Exd 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the quarreling of the people of Israel, and because they tested the LORD by saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"


Here we have defined 'going astray' as unbelief that God was there with them.

 

[Mike]

Goooooooood stuff when you PM'd it! Looks even better in the thread!!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What's wrong with the EASY ANSWER??

We sin because it's our Nature to do so, and we (you, Me, Everybody) WANT to do it. And whether God is "Omnipotent"/"Omnicient"/"Omnipresent" or not isn't particularly a Factor, because in Most cases it's nothing but "head knowledge", and our PERSONAL prefences/lusts easily override it - so that we do what we CHOOSE TO DO.

 

[Nathan]

Goooooooood stuff when you PM'd it! Looks even better in the thread!!

Awwwww.....you know how to make a guy blush.....:muchlove

 

[MarkT]

A proposition in a Bible study group I'm in said that we sin, because we do not fully believe in our heart, the omnipresence of God. I'll explain.

The premise of this session was to talk about how most people have bought in to the lies of Satan. Through the new-age movement and post-modernism, we've been inundated by messages that God is not and there really is nothing besides the cosmos (as Karl Sagan said). Everyday, this is pounded into us, and as years go by, the message grafts itself into our psyche.

They proposed that even Christians don't harbor 100% belief in God's Omnipresence. They might say they do (I say I do), but a part of them, even subconsciously has some disbelief due to the influence of "the world".

An example given was a guy at his computer looking at things he aught not look at. If his mother stood behind him and could see everything he was clicking on, he wouldn't do it, because plain as day, she's standing right there. He doesn't have to believe it. He knows it! He says the greatest time he falls to this temptation is when his wife and kids leave him alone. But, in Truth, he's NOT alone. So if we would purposely do something like this (or a different sin) while we're all alone, shouldn't God's omnipresence be just as convicting in every sinful act as our mothers? The speaker suggested this is evidence that there's a disconnect between our head and our heart in having complete faith that he is there, and this has been brought on globally by philosophers and post-modernism chipping away at people, even biblical Christians. Our heads can say they believe it, but does the heart truly believe it.

I thought that was interesting, but then I thought, what about Paul who struggled with sin. He talked about doing the things he knows he shouldn't do, and not doing the things he should? The reason we sin, the speaker suggested, sounded viable, but people have sinned and lusted throughout time; before all the philosophy and post-mod Christianity emerged.

How does this resonate with you? Besides the easy answer like, "We're sinful by nature", what is the underlying reason we sin in the presence of the omnipresent Lord?

It is just as convicting if the Spirit of God is in you. Certainly temptations exist. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! But I would say we sin because the flesh is weak.

 

[Nathan]

It is just as convicting if the Spirit of God is in you. Certainly temptations exist. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! But I would say we sin because the flesh is weak.

So, would you say that we do not sin when our flesh is strong?

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Mike. Do not hesitate to do what must be done to keep the peace and stay on topic.

 

[Elijah674]

Do we still make it a habit to do these things? 1 Cor. 6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such [were some of you:] but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I always thought that the Born Again mind was to NOW Control the carnal body?? Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor,12:9

--Elijah

 

[MarkT]

So, would you say that we do not sin when our flesh is strong?

Your question is illogical nathanielhooper. If something is weak, then it cannot be strong.

 

[Nathan]

Your question is illogical nathanielhooper. If something is weak, then it cannot be strong.

Yes it would seem to be. But you said;

But I would say we sin because the flesh is weak.

The weaker is always ruled by the stronger. The weaker is 'controlled' by the stronger. Your statement seems to say that the flesh is the 'deciding' factor in our sinning. I am just trying to understand what your thoughts are, that is all.

 

[MarkT]

The weaker is always ruled by the stronger. The weaker is 'controlled' by the stronger. Your statement seems to say that the flesh is the 'deciding' factor in our sinning. I am just trying to understand what your thoughts are, that is all.

Basically yes. The flesh pretty much has the will or the desire to do wrong. So man is weak in the face of temptation. So I would have to say both temptation and desire are at work to make us sin.

 

[danjon]

First of, plenty of evil thing have been done in front of witnesses, so the claim that we do them only because we dont really believe that God is watching does not really compute.
That we somehow deceive ourself into thinkin that we will escape is far more likely.

When dealing with this sort of problem I often find it usefull to start by fully defining the question. In the case sin.
So what exactly do we mean by sin?

I have managed to come find two possible meaning. It may well be that the true meaning still eludes me, but I can't base my thoughts on that assumption.

Meaning 1:
To sin is to do something that will land you in hell. In this case sin is the same as evil. The guestion therefore becomes why do people do evil thing?
To me the most likely reason is that people give into their greed, that people don't fully understand the full impact of their actions or they have just given up in the "might as well be hanged for a cow, as be shot for a chicken" kind of way.
Essenstialy the reasons for crime are the same as the reasons for sin.

Meaning 2:
To sin is to go againts the will of God. This may seem the same as the fyrst but, at least to my mind, they are unrelated. There is of course no need do point out that God does not like evil things, but in this case that does not make them a sin.
This can get very complicated with regard to humans so lets start with a simple example.

A chimpanzee can steal a banana. This may well be an evil act but it is not a sinful one. The chimpanzee is only following it's nature, the will of God.
Now a chimpanzee can paint a great painting, this would indeed be beyond its nature and so would technically be a sin. It would however be exceeding it nature and in so doing would most likely please god, this would not fit with the negative meaning of sin and therefore the act could not be sinfull.
The chimpanzee could also fail to care for its young. This would also go against it's nature and it would do so in a negative way. This would be a sin.

With humans this becomes more complicated mostly because God demand far more from us then he does from the chimpanzee. He has given us the tools of intelligence, understanding and selfawarness and he has placed us in charge of this planet. If we now look to our nature we quickly see the will of God in our compassion and love,

In this case to sin is to refrain from using the tools that he has given us and to fail to meet the standards of our nature.
In this case we sin because we are lazy, scared or just misguided.

The flipside is that we can exceed his expectations. But our Lord is kind, he does not demand it.

 

[MarkT]

ok

Sin is closely associated with carnal desire. Metaphorically speaking, sin is like an animal; it is hidden, lying in wait. It has a desire for you. Genesis 4:7 Sin is also closely associated with death. Paul writes, when we are changed, there will be no more death, no more sin. 1 Cor. 15:54 He also writes the sting of death is sin, meaning, even in death, you can't escape your sins. People think once you're dead that's it. But it's not over. Death has a sting. The dead will be raised and they will give account. Spiritually speaking, sin is a stain on your garment. Stains add up; our garment becomes a rag, red, filthy, stained, unclean. Uncleaness is strongly associated with sin. Sin is associated with wrong doing, wickedness, disobedience; if you do as the LORD has commanded, you do well, but if you will not do it, behold, you have sinned against the LORD. Do what the Lord commanded. Do not do what the Lord has commanded not to do. "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. Isaiah 1:18 RSV