Why Do We Sin?

[Mike]

Colossians 2
"2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."

And the world has been chipping away at our inner-most being to the point the, without even knowing it, we are blanketed with a "fine-sounding argument". This world seeks to sever our connect with the Truth.

I've seen people give arguments for what sin is, and come suggest it is pure disobedience. I cannot conceive of this, knowing Who we are aware we are being disobedient to. I remain unconvinced that it is not the erosion of the Truth in us that we fail to act upon that which we know is True. We comprehend that God, in all His Omniscience is where we are at. Our Protector and our Judge Who has revealed this Truth to us is in our midst. I believe we comprehend this, but do we apprehend this. I don't believe if our faith was not compromised, that we would do what we do.

I believe if we could strip away the veil completely, and come to total clarity in our God's presence, we would not choose to do what we know is wrong. I am convinced that it is because of a lack of faith, ever so small, that we allow ourselves this discord. We are separate from every other living creature. As those Created in the image of God, our purpose is for him. This is unique to us, and has no impact on other creatures.

 

[Nathan]

Colossians 2
"2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."

And the world has been chipping away at our inner-most being to the point the, without even knowing it, we are blanketed with a "fine-sounding argument". This world seeks to sever our connect with the Truth.

I've seen people give arguments for what sin is, and come suggest it is pure disobedience. I cannot conceive of this, knowing Who we are aware we are being disobedient to. I remain unconvinced that it is not the erosion of the Truth in us that we fail to act upon that which we know is True. We comprehend that God, in all His Omniscience is where we are at. Our Protector and our Judge Who has revealed this Truth to us is in our midst. I believe we comprehend this, but do we apprehend this. I don't believe if our faith was not compromised, that we would do what we do.

I believe if we could strip away the veil completely, and come to total clarity in our God's presence, we would not choose to do what we know is wrong. I am convinced that it is because of a lack of faith, ever so small, that we allow ourselves this discord. We are separate from every other living creature. As those Created in the image of God, our purpose is for him. This is unique to us, and has no impact on other creatures.

I agree. You know my heart on this already. No need to reiterate anything. But I do want to add to your statement a little if I may. :D

I think the thing that sets us apart from other 'creatures' and creation in general, is the fact that only we can sin. The uniqueness is that the creatures were created to do whatever it is that God purposes them to do. Therefore, they do not 'miss the mark'.

And your statement about faith is 'right on the mark'. Why do we sin? We choose to sin. We have the ability to choose to believe God is right, or Satan is right. Faith chooses God, 'faithlessness' chooses Satan. That is precisely why there will not be any sin in the kingdom. Satan will be forever unable to enter.

And your statement about 'stripping away the veil and coming to complete clarity of God's presence' is absolutely, 100%, spot on.

Rev 22:3-5 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Imagine that. Everywhere you turn, constantly 'aware' of His presence. What a wonderful thing. You could not even hide in a closet, everywhere there will be light. I believe this to be literal as well as symbolic. We will see God's face. And His name will be on our foreheads, that is, it will always be before us. Constantly, never ceasing.

You have it down brother. This is the conclusion God draws, that 'darkness' is associated with sin. So to agree with Him that a 'darkened mind' of the presence of God creates a breeding ground of sin is spot on.

 

[Mike]

I agree. You know my heart on this already. No need to reiterate anything. But I do want to add to your statement a little if I may. :D

I think the thing that sets us apart from other 'creatures' and creation in general, is the fact that only we can sin. The uniqueness is that the creatures were created to do whatever it is that God purposes them to do. Therefore, they do not 'miss the mark'.

And your statement about faith is 'right on the mark'. Why do we sin? We choose to sin. We have the ability to choose to believe God is right, or Satan is right. Faith chooses God, 'faithlessness' chooses Satan. That is precisely why there will not be any sin in the kingdom. Satan will be forever unable to enter.

And your statement about 'stripping away the veil and coming to complete clarity of God's presence' is absolutely, 100%, spot on.

Rev 22:3-5 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Imagine that. Everywhere you turn, constantly 'aware' of His presence. What a wonderful thing. You could not even hide in a closet, everywhere there will be light. I believe this to be literal as well as symbolic. We will see God's face. And His name will be on our foreheads, that is, it will always be before us. Constantly, never ceasing.

You have it down brother. This is the conclusion God draws, that 'darkness' is associated with sin. So to agree with Him that a 'darkened mind' of the presence of God creates a breeding ground of sin is spot on.

Well, I'm happy to have you, even if only you, in my corner of the room, Nathan.

Actually, the part you added was the part I forgot to include. Without a soul, a monkey or a dog does not "sin". As I understand it, when it comes down to the heart of it, sin is when we put anything ahead of God.

I'm thinking of an analogy. For those of us who are believers, we believe God is All Powerful and Autonomous. He has the ability to snuff out our life in a word and condemn us to hell. Now, would a thief steal, if he was surrounded by 10 policemen staring him down with guns pointed at him 10 feet away? Would a murderer murder in that scenario? He'd have to be insane to the point of disbelieving the police and guns were really there. Now, if the policemen were in hiding and a thief suspected they were watching, but didn't know for sure, he might convince himself that he will get away with it and not be caught.

No, God doesn't have a gun pointed at us for our daily sins, but it's something much meaningful. He has Himself pointed at us.

 

[danjon]

Yes that is certainly a very beautiful way to approach this question. And it is ofcourse true.
It's impossible for a sinner to have full faith in God.

This cannot however be a complete answer. For can one refrain from sin yet not have full faith?

I'm sorry if my monkey made you miss the point of that post. It was only meant to simplify the question. I did not mean to give him a soul or humanize him in anyway. (And by the way this is a nice example of not realising the full implications of your actions).

Let me try again to explain my thoughts on the matter.
If sin is just doing evil or giving in to demons, then it would be possible to be free from sin simply by locking yourself away from temptations. This is the basis of all monastic orders.
I can not believe that it is possible to cheat your way into heaven like this.
God demands more than that we just refrain from evil. He asks us to do good.

 

[Nathan]

Yes that is certainly a very beautiful way to approach this question. And it is ofcourse true.
It's impossible for a sinner to have full faith in God.

This cannot however be a complete answer. For can one refrain from sin yet not have full faith?

I'm sorry if my monkey made you miss the point of that post. It was only meant to simplify the question. I did not mean to give him a soul or humanize him in anyway. (And by the way this is a nice example of not realising the full implications of your actions).

Let me try again to explain my thoughts on the matter.
If sin is just doing evil or giving in to demons, then it would be possible to be free from sin simply by locking yourself away from temptations. This is the basis of all monastic orders.
I can not believe that it is possible to cheat your way into heaven like this.
God demands more than that we just refrain from evil. He asks us to do good.

I understand what you are saying. I 'looked into' this once myself. How the monks thought, and why they did the things they did. And it is one reason so many are attracted to Buddhism, event though the idea of 'physical isolation' originated with Christian beliefs.

But it was interesting that monks saw that the harder they tried to 'abstain' from "sinning", the more and more they wanted to partake in it. At least those who were willing to be honest with themselves and others. Which is why the words of Paul ring true when he says;

Eph 6:12 "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

I have always thought about the return of Christ, and how it will be so awesome when He comes again to banish away all sin and evil. And sometimes I get that "coming" mixed up with the events that lead up to it. Some times I have 'lumped' them all in together and hope for it without realizing what I am doing. Then I was reminded the other day when I read this from Amos;

Amo 5:18-20 "Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! Why would you have the day of the LORD? It is darkness, and not light, as if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall, and a serpent bit him. Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it?"

We could go into great debate about this, leading into 'end time' discussions. But here is the point, darkness is a scary thing when it is likened to this. It speaks of the man who fled from a lion. He was actually trying to "avoid" one thing, but yet something greater got a hold of him. Or if the man makes it to his house, and when he leaned against the wall to catch his breath a stinking ole serpent got him. No where to run, no where to hide, darkness all around.

But before this we see Amos state something, that is also stated else where, and is precisely what I believe you are stating danjon;

Amo 5:14-15 "Seek good, and not evil, that you may live; and so the LORD, the God of hosts, will be with you, as you have said. Hate evil, and love good, and establish justice in the gate; it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph."

There is an active role played in 'seeking'. It is like what Jesus says, man cannot serve two masters. And the simple fact is man is going to serve something. Sometimes we think of us being free unto ourselves, but the fact is we are 'attached' to this flesh, so therefore we cannot get away from it. Only through an active servitude to the leading of the Spirit, can we ever escape the grip of the sin nature.

 

[MarkT]

Colossians 2
"2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."

And the world has been chipping away at our inner-most being to the point the, without even knowing it, we are blanketed with a "fine-sounding argument". This world seeks to sever our connect with the Truth.

I've seen people give arguments for what sin is, and come suggest it is pure disobedience. I cannot conceive of this, knowing Who we are aware we are being disobedient to. I remain unconvinced that it is not the erosion of the Truth in us that we fail to act upon that which we know is True. We comprehend that God, in all His Omniscience is where we are at. Our Protector and our Judge Who has revealed this Truth to us is in our midst. I believe we comprehend this, but do we apprehend this. I don't believe if our faith was not compromised, that we would do what we do.

I believe if we could strip away the veil completely, and come to total clarity in our God's presence, we would not choose to do what we know is wrong. I am convinced that it is because of a lack of faith, ever so small, that we allow ourselves this discord. We are separate from every other living creature. As those Created in the image of God, our purpose is for him. This is unique to us, and has no impact on other creatures.

The true sons of God do good whether God is watching them or not. We don't have to have God watch us all the time. We are born of his Spirit. We do good because we love our Father, not because he is watching us. We do good because it pleases him. We do good because we love good and we hate evil. But what I'm saying is the flesh is weak. We don't choose to sin. We resist the temptation to sin. However if we do sin, Jesus intercedes for us.

 

[danjon]

That seems to fit well with the 'sin is to do evil' understanding.
The absolutnest of the passage gives me a few questions thought.
I have not done anything that I could honestly call evil.
I have often done less good then i could have but never anything that I think of as evil. Does this make me free of sin?

If we go back to the example in the original post:

An example given was a guy at his computer looking at things he aught not look at. If his mother stood behind him and could see everything he was clicking on, he wouldn't do it, because plain as day, she's standing right there. He doesn't have to believe it. He knows it!

Can this really be called sin. Cetainly its not good but does that make it a sin? And if it is then the whole concept of sin must be more complicated that just refraining from evil.

 

[Mike]

I have not done anything that I could honestly call evil.
I have often done less good then i could have but never anything that I think of as evil. Does this make me free of sin?

If we go back to the example in the original post:


Can this really be called sin. Cetainly its not good but does that make it a sin? And if it is then the whole concept of sin must be more complicated that just refraining from evil.

Danjon, you might well need to truly consider what it means to do evil. Any time we are putting our ambitions ahead of God, or do something that is not the Will of God, we are doing evil. We are sinning. You say you can honestly say that you haven't done anything evil. Have you ever lied? Ever stolen anything? I have. It wouldn't matter the value. All that matters is the intention. The heart is seeking something that belongs to someone else.

Isaiah 59
"3 For your hands are stained with blood,
your fingers with guilt.
Your lips have spoken lies,
and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4 No one calls for justice;
no one pleads his case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments and speak lies;
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil."

The true sons of God do good whether God is watching them or not. We don't have to have God watch us all the time. We are born of his Spirit. We do good because we love our Father, not because he is watching us. We do good because it pleases him. We do good because we love good and we hate evil. But what I'm saying is the flesh is weak. We don't choose to sin. We resist the temptation to sin. However if we do sin, Jesus intercedes for us.

The emphasis of my OP was not on "doing good" or "good works". These are not something we do to get right, but a product of our faith. The end of your post was speaking to what I'm focusing on. And I suppose I have a difference of opinion. I believe we do have a choice to make in choosing to sin some of the time. Thing like lust can come about without a conscious decision, but clicking on a web sight that we ought not to or taking something that doesn't belong to us is. Say for example we're in the supply room at our work place and think, "I need that at home." This is just a hypothetical example of something we might do, but we would not if we had 100% faith that God was at our side when we did it.

I agree that sin is part of our flesh that corrupts our nature in our thoughts and ambitions, but there are times when we actively and purposefully engage in something we know is wrong.

 

[danjon]

Its funny how I can both agree and disagree with you at the same time.

To put yourself before God is a definiton on sin that I agree with whole heartily.
To put others before yourself is indeed laudable, but not doing so can't always be a sin?

If that is the case we are all sinners simply because there are people on this world that have in worse then us.

what if you are the only one in the equation, what if you are not putting yourself before others simply because there are no others for you to put yourself infront of?

In the case of the computer guy. Can we say that he is putting himself infront of anybody? Is he indulging himself in a shameful act, certainly. It is when you ask me to call it sinful that the questions start.
what he is doing can ofcourse be against the will of God and so be sinful. However i dont think that it is.
The reason for why lust so often leads to sin is because it leads us to break vows given to each others and to God, and so leads you to put yourself before God and to do harm to others. if no such vows have been given no betrayal can occur and lust becomes a personal matter only. It may still be shameful but it won't be sinful.

In my case, ofcourse I have done thing that are not honorable and in somecases even shameful. But I have never, as far as I know, hurt anyone, never betrayed anyone and have always tried to help others as best I can. I cant think of anything evil that I have done.

 

[Mike]

Once again, the same parties are derailing this thread and arguing over Romans 7. You've been told not to carry this thread away with the dispute between you two. If either posts more content in response to the other, it will be deleted and warnings may be issued.

This is not the place for you two to hash out this argument!

 

[danjon]

wow that was rather agressive...
I do apologice if I somehow upset you.

No one is arguing that one could break the law of God yet somehow not be commiting a sin.

All your points are valid and true, it is our weakness that causes us to sin. It is in failing to resist temptations that leeds many into sin.

But where lies the sin. In the act or in the failure to resist.
There are many acts that are sinful. But there must also be many act that are not sinful on their own, but become sinful because of their surroundings.
For example, to lust after a woman must only be sinful if you, or she, is commited to another.
As such I cant see how the original computer guy can be in sin. assuming that he is not breaking anyones trust with his actions.

 

[Drew]

Once again, the same parties are derailing this thread and arguing over Romans 7. You've been told not to carry this thread away with the dispute between you two. If either posts more content in response to the other, it will be deleted and warnings may be issued.

This is not the place for you two to hash out this argument!

Hi Mike:

I sent you 2 PMs about this, but they do not appear in my "sent items". Did you get these PMs?

 

[MarkT]

The emphasis of my OP was not on "doing good" or "good works". These are not something we do to get right, but a product of our faith. The end of your post was speaking to what I'm focusing on. And I suppose I have a difference of opinion. I believe we do have a choice to make in choosing to sin some of the time. Thing like lust can come about without a conscious decision, but clicking on a web sight that we ought not to or taking something that doesn't belong to us is. Say for example we're in the supply room at our work place and think, "I need that at home." This is just a hypothetical example of something we might do, but we would not if we had 100% faith that God was at our side when we did it.

I agree that sin is part of our flesh that corrupts our nature in our thoughts and ambitions, but there are times when we actively and purposefully engage in something we know is wrong.

That would be the flesh telling you you need it at home. If you are in the Spirit, then obviously you don't need it at home. Your home is in God. Now, I know we are not perfect yet, so if you were to give in to your desire for some reason, I can't imagine why, then the Spirit would convict you, and you would have to repent of your sin, and God will forgive you. But the question is, why do we sin? I think it is obvious. The flesh is weak. Now, you say it's because of uncertainty - we can't be 100% certain God is watching. But that's the nature of faith. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. You can't blame your sins on uncertainty. The godless won't get away with that excuse, and neither will you.

And faith isn't something you can have 99% of. You either have it or you don't. Having an ounce of faith is the same as having a ton of faith. To everyone who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. Mt. 25:29 So to everyone who has faith, God gives more. A little bit is enough to move a mountain. With genuine faith comes wisdom, knowledge, and understanding.

Now, I think even the godless would turn away from sin if they could see God or know God exists, and I'm sure they will blame God for their sins, but the fact is, they heard the word of God, and they do reject his Son, so they have no excuse.

 

[Mike]

Now, you say it's because of uncertainty - we can't be 100% certain God is watching. But that's the nature of faith. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. You can't blame your sins on uncertainty. The godless won't get away with that excuse, and neither will you.

Well, first of all, there is plenty of room to say that the godless sin due to lack of faith - as well as evil intentions. If they did have faith, they wouldn't be children of the devil. I guess I'm not sure what you're saying here. You have a good point about my 100% faith comment, so strike that. Simply look at the practical end of it, and lets use 1 example. It's a big one for some men, and I'll just say "looking at bad pictures on the internet". Your family is out of the house for the day, and you settle in front of the pc. (all hypothetical. may not apply to you) Are you every bit as conscious of what you click on as you would be if your wife and your mother where standing over your shoulder?

I'll punch holes in my own argument. Someone told me they do things, anything, believing God is amidst him, but he seems to take this temporary attitude that "God will forgive me when I ask. He knows my weaknesses". So, this case is an argument against my premise, but I maintain this person is unaware of what the emergent church AND society in general have been doing while chipping away at his faith. The secular world view has distorted, warped, his biblical world view, and he doesn't even recognize it.

You have terrific input. It's nice to be able to differ without letting it get out of hand. I see your point, but I think you are underestimating the impact of the messaging we get pounded with everyday that undermines our biblical world view. To this point, I'm going to tie in Col 2 again and relate what I'm saying here with what Paul says.

Colossians 2
"2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is."