Why Do You Believe?

[Wrg1405]

I begin with one of the Brisbane newspapers, The Courier-Mail. How do we know that what the journalist wrote is correct about any contemporary event? Here I deal with: (1) Comments of eyewitnesses; (2) How to determine whether the eyewitness is telling the truth (this is what a judge tries to discern in court evidence).

However, the Bible is an ancient historical document. How does one determine the veracity or otherwise of any document from history? Amy Orr-Ewing, who is an apologist for RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Ministries) in the UK, has short videos on YouTube that cover some of this material from youth conferences called REBOOT. Listen to her presentation on 'Can You Trust the Bible?' See also, 'Can You Trust the Bible? Open Forum'.

Years before I knew of Amy's work, I was using this kind of material for the T.I.E.S. Test for biblical fidelity. See my brief articles:

Can you trust the Bible? Part 1
Can you trust the Bible? Part 2
Can you trust the Bible? Part 3
Can you trust the Bible? Part 4

However, my key to interaction is to listen to the objections of the person with whom I'm discussing the faith. Some are hard-headed atheists or sceptics and it's nigh impossible to crack them, hence the need of the 'S' of the TIES test.

I met an atheist on another forum with whom I had to deal with this issue, so this article grew out of that encounter: The Bible: fairy tale or history?

An Australian online journal currently is interested in my writing an article on this topic so I'll use some of this material.

I hope that gives you a starter to my approach.

Oz

Send it my way

 

[Wrg1405]

CE,

The problem with subjective experience is that somebody else with a different subjective experience can proclaim a changed life, e.g. Islam changed my life; my encounter with the occult changed my life; etc.

I find it better to use subjective experience as the cream on the cake. Establishing the content of the cake is the better starting point. This includes establishing the existence of God (Heb 11:6 ESV), the trustworthiness of Scripture, the content and proclamation of the Gospel, and the receipt of the Gospel by faith (cream on the cake).

Oz

Whilst I agree with your comment that a subjective experience can proclaim a changed life with reference to Islam, occult etc we could say the same for work place environments, political activists and so on. Truth is it will change their life, maybe for the better, maybe not. However the subjective experience is not one that references Jesus.

I do however agree with CE, he beleives because he has seen how Jesus has changed people from the inside, he believes because of what God has done in his life and the testimony of other believers. To me that's not subjective but reality. That's why he believes. I can relate to what he is saying

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think Christ changes people in a way that false religions, the occult, Mental Health, inc. , etc. do not and cannot. Truth changes people, even whole societies, in a way and to an extent that I do not think you find with other faiths or ways of dealing with human life.

Islam is a big deal right now, but look at how a lot of Islamic societies have gone to hell in a hand basket. Christ influences society for the better...the abolitionist movement, the temperance movements, some forms of women's rights movements, so on and so forth. All this because of a lowly carpenter from Nazareth?!?! See where I'm going with this?

besides, for me at least...archaeological evidence is cool, discussions about God from a more philosophical angle are interesting, etc. etc. etc., but I'm more interested in the changes Jesus makes in individuals and the world as a whole. I don't need a video of Christ's crucifixion from a witness to see that Jesus changes people from the inside out. I don't need experts to tell me about physical evidence when I hear stories of healings, restoration, transformation, etc. The philosophical discussions are interesting...but Christianity is a religion based on The Scripture. Worldly wisdom is only useful in so far as it is supported by Scripture.

I do think it is good to be able to defend one's faith and all, but I also think believers in many places should realize that 21st century culture is decidedly anti-Christ in outlook. The world has never been Christian as a whole, but Christian concepts held enough sway that believers and unbelievers were at least speaking more or less the same language. That's no longer the case.

I think that, these days, it takes a miracle to make a believer out of most people in affluent, developed, 21st century nations. The world is always opposed to Christ, always has been, but...now, believers and unbelievers are worlds apart, in a way that I don't think was the case in generations past. Not surprisingly...Christianity is fading in Europe, Canada...even the US is now "post-Christian." I think the most even the most intelligent, articulate, well-educated believer can do is try to plant seeds. Even that is difficult, now more than ever...not only is the culture more bent away from Christ and the core parts of a Christian worldview, media saturation means there's often no escape from the prevailing worldview.

 

[KevinK]

I find the hand of God in every aspect of my life. It's an intelligence, and it's omniscient, omnipotent, benign, loving, guiding and kind. I've always noticed it, and don't plan on ever not noticing.

EDIT: I'm known as a bit of a lone wolf, and people sometimes ask me why. The fact is, I never feel like I'm alone. Even in the middle of desert, I'm with Him.

 

[Wrg1405]

I think Christ changes people in a way that false religions, the occult, Mental Health, inc. , etc. do not and cannot. Truth changes people, even whole societies, in a way and to an extent that I do not think you find with other faiths or ways of dealing with human life.

Islam is a big deal right now, but look at how a lot of Islamic societies have gone to hell in a hand basket. Christ influences society for the better...the abolitionist movement, the temperance movements, some forms of women's rights movements, so on and so forth. All this because of a lowly carpenter from Nazareth?!?! See where I'm going with this?

besides, for me at least...archaeological evidence is cool, discussions about God from a more philosophical angle are interesting, etc. etc. etc., but I'm more interested in the changes Jesus makes in individuals and the world as a whole. I don't need a video of Christ's crucifixion from a witness to see that Jesus changes people from the inside out. I don't need experts to tell me about physical evidence when I hear stories of healings, restoration, transformation, etc. The philosophical discussions are interesting...but Christianity is a religion based on The Scripture. Worldly wisdom is only useful in so far as it is supported by Scripture.

I do think it is good to be able to defend one's faith and all, but I also think believers in many places should realize that 21st century culture is decidedly anti-Christ in outlook. The world has never been Christian as a whole, but Christian concepts held enough sway that believers and unbelievers were at least speaking more or less the same language. That's no longer the case.

I think that, these days, it takes a miracle to make a believer out of most people in affluent, developed, 21st century nations. The world is always opposed to Christ, always has been, but...now, believers and unbelievers are worlds apart, in a way that I don't think was the case in generations past. Not surprisingly...Christianity is fading in Europe, Canada...even the US is now "post-Christian." I think the most even the most intelligent, articulate, well-educated believer can do is try to plant seeds. Even that is difficult, now more than ever...not only is the culture more bent away from Christ and the core parts of a Christian worldview, media saturation means there's often no escape from the prevailing worldview.

You are right, Christ changes people not with coping mechanisms but from inside out. He helps us deal with our human life. Yes it may be crap but he sits in the crap with us. When I was having counselling many years ago the people praying at the the time asked me "What you thinking" I said "I see a picture of me sitting in trash bin" they asked "What would Jesus say"? I said "he will pull me out" they said no "Jesus would get in that trash bin with you, hold you, be with you and then say lets get out together"

He deals with us in the trash bin of life. Only when we know this it changes us and then we see it when he does it with others. When I see it happen with others that strengths my faith.

 

[embreezyy]

I believe because God is the only thing that gives me true joy. A joy that can't be described. A freedom that can only be given by God. That's why I believe.

 

[Christ_empowered]

That's an excellent reason. Welcome to CFnet, by the way.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe because God is the only thing that gives me true joy. A joy that can't be described. A freedom that can only be given by God. That's why I believe.

em,

I also welcome you to CFnet. I trust that you will find encouragement in interaction with us.

I have questions relating to your response: How would you reply to a person who said, 'Forget your Christianity, I've found joy and encouragement in fellowship with my Muslim friends'. Or, 'my sexual encounters bring me the most joy'.

Oz

 

[Eugene]

.

I believe because God is the only thing that gives me true joy. A joy that can't be described. A freedom that can only be given by God. That's why I believe.

I too want to welcome you to our Christian fellowship in Jesus' name.
.