Why Do you Visit here?

[Guest]

Agreed and that standard is the Scriptures. It appears that your standard is a murky "well God revealed the truth to me directly and I do not need to stoop to squarely address Scriptural arguments that make a case different from what has been revealed to me".

This little chide of mine to you, and your chide that I teach false doctrine are not the central issue, however.

Actually teachings false doctrines is central. However, I never suggested that "God revealed the truth to me directly and I do not need to stoop to squarely address Scriptural arguements that make a case different from what has been revealed to me."

I would like to pose this question: Do you agree that the Scriptures are the ulitmate arbiter of God's truth and any claim to "special revelation" that contradicts Scripture is false teaching?

I am going to presume that you will answer "yes".

In that case, I do not see how you think that this plays out in practice if not through a communal acceptance of the principles of sound argumentation in respect to that very central task of determining what the Scriptures teach.

Principles of sound argumentation is a learned skill. God clearly states in the Scriptures that He uses the foolish to shame the wise.

From your perspective, exactly how does a community of persons determine what the Scriptures mean if not through a commonly accepted set of principles of sound reasoning that act on the Scriptures as the raw material that drives the process?

I do not wish to put words in your mouth, but you almost seem to think that each person's 'special revelation' of truth that is not grounded in good old fashioned principles of sound reasoning - consistency, coherence, logic, etc - are all going to magically line up with one another.

I think the evidence is clear that it does not work this way.

God has provided the Holy Spirit to guide the individual and the community.

 

[Drew]

Principles of sound argumentation is a learned skill. God clearly states in the Scriptures that He uses the foolish to shame the wise.

Being wise is not something to avoid. Learning how to think clearly and properly is not a sign of worldliness. Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

2 Chronicles 1:9-11

"Now, LORD God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth. Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?"
God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you"

Proverbs 2:1-3

My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

No doubt, someone will object that there is a distinction between "worldly wisdom" and "God's wisdom". This is a fuzzy distinction that suits the rhetorical purposes of those who continue to demean the discipline of careful and correct thinking. God made the world and we are faced with the challenge of figuring it out. We use our minds for this task and we work together with others in this enterprise. Of course we adopt an attitude of waiting on the Spirit.

But, and this is key, we do not simply sit there like lumps and wait for a magical download. We work, we develop the disciplines of structured and logical thinking. We learn to communicate with one another via language, etc.

This idea that sound reasoning skills constitute "human" wisdom that is set against God's wisdom is, I suggest, another manifestation of gnosticism - the belief that the created world, fallen though it may be, is entirely evil and useless and needs to be escaped from.

It is this error of gnosticism that leads to a belief that we will leave this useless world behind and it will be destroyed - the Scriptures instead teach that our final place will be right here on a renewed earth. This may seem like a tangent but I think it is relevant. Jesus' inbreaking into human history initiated a process of new creation - the cosmos is being subtly but irrevocably re-worked in fits and starts. The created order, including human brains and the use of those brains to figure out the world, were declared to be very good by God in the book of Genesis.

God is reversing the curse (although this will really only ultimately achieved in the future). We should not therefore dismiss what God initially declared to be very good and is even now reclaiming.

 

[handy]

One of the most common charges that members of the RCC cast against Protestants is that sola scriptura has led to a cacophony of conflicting doctrines resulting in divisions within the body. And, they are absolutly right, it has.

It seems that as long as our Lord tarries, the church is faced with two options: a monolithic unity that allows for no challenges and therefore unchecked heresies, such as the RCC before the Reformation or chaotic, often conflictive divisions like we have now. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is God's perfect will for the Church, but it's unfortunately the fact of life here on earth.

Now, we went through the monolith stage, and we are in the chaotic stage. Frankly, being in the position to compare the two, I prefer the chaos. We need to be able to voice oppositions. Sometimes the Holy Spirit is at work in the oppositions, sometimes it's just plain human pride or stubbornness. But, the debate is far more healthy, IMN2BHO than the stiffling of all opposition that led to such atrocities as the Inquisition and indulgences and what looks suspiciously like idolarty.

vic listed the SOF of 123, and I agree that it covers the non-negotiables of the Christian faith. The negotiables are most likely going to be debated until Jesus returns. I don't think the problem is the debate. The problem arises when we spend more time trying to prove that the one we are arguing with isn't a Christian, than we spend doing the primary work of the kingdom, which is spreading the gospel, baptizing believers, making disciples and caring for the needs of others.

I appreciate forums like 123, because it's gives the opportunity to engage in healthy debate. I will most likely never come to agree with Drew's views on annihilation. Perhaps, someday, I might even convince him that he is mistaken in the view. Or perhaps not. However, I don't think his view is going to prevent his very salvation, as long as he holds to those non-negotiables that vic posted. No more than I think that aLoneVoice's apparent belief that we will spend eternity in heaven will prevent his salvation.

All in all, I think there will be a lot of "Gee, I guess you were right about that one!" on the new earth. (But not "I told you so's." "I told you so." is just plain obnoxious, and obnoxiousness will not be part of the new earth!)

 

[Drew]

However, I don't think his view is going to prevent his very salvation, as long as he holds to those non-negotiables that vic posted.

I do agree with the "non-negotiables" that Vic posted.

 

[DavidLee]

Principles of sound argumentation is a learned skill. God clearly states in the Scriptures that He uses the foolish to shame the wise.

Being wise is not something to avoid. Learning how to think clearly and properly is not a sign of worldliness. Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

I disagree. I don't think anything can harm the church.
Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The wisdom Solomon sought came from God, not from men.
1 Kings 3:12
"behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you."

Solomon further declared that wordly wisdom is vanity. Wouldn't he know best?

 

[handy]

Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

I disagree. I don't think anything can harm the church.
Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

First of all, Welcome David Lee! Nice to see you around and I can tell by the way you appeal to the Scriptures that you're my kind of guy. Whether we'll agree on all the negotiables is another matter, but then again that's what makes these boards so interesting! :-D

Just to show how disagreeable I can be, I'll disagree with both you and Drew.

I don't think that anything is killing the church.

But, on the other hand, I think that the church can be harmed and our ministry seriously affected by false doctrines. (I know this seems a 180 from my last couple of posts, but I believe in looking at all aspects of an issue.) The false doctrines that crept into the RCC that were unchallenged prior to the Reformation harmed the church quite a bit, and we're still dealing with the fallout today.

Having a well educated congregation that knows how to read and understand God's Word, and articulate their beliefs, and even better educated pastors and teachers who can help us understand the nuances of the original languages of the Scriptures is a great way to prevent false teachings from becoming dogma.

But, more importantly still, is the attitude that all Christians, whether well-educated or not, should take; that of humility. This is what sets apart those who are simply well-educated from those with true godly wisdom.

aLoneVoice has brought up a good point regarding spiritual pride. Because he's absolutely correct, we do have the Holy Spirit to guide what the community believes. Therefore, the fact that the church is so fractured and divided over doctrines then must be due to spiritual pride and a lack of humility on the part of those in leadership positions to even admit to the fact that they just might be wrong.

When you have someone who is well educated, knowledgable of God's word, but also willing to admit when he's wrong and willing to listen to others, but most importantly able to distingush when he is speaking on his own behalf from when the Holy Spirit is prompting him...well, think about it, you have the Apostle Paul. He told us to imitate him as he imitated Christ. Good advice; we should all follow it.

 

[Guest]

Principles of sound argumentation is a learned skill. God clearly states in the Scriptures that He uses the foolish to shame the wise.

Being wise is not something to avoid. Learning how to think clearly and properly is not a sign of worldliness. Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

2 Chronicles 1:9-11

"Now, LORD God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth. Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?"
God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you"

Proverbs 2:1-3

My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

No doubt, someone will object that there is a distinction between "worldly wisdom" and "God's wisdom". This is a fuzzy distinction that suits the rhetorical purposes of those who continue to demean the discipline of careful and correct thinking. God made the world and we are faced with the challenge of figuring it out. We use our minds for this task and we work together with others in this enterprise. Of course we adopt an attitude of waiting on the Spirit.

But, and this is key, we do not simply sit there like lumps and wait for a magical download. We work, we develop the disciplines of structured and logical thinking. We learn to communicate with one another via language, etc.

This idea that sound reasoning skills constitute "human" wisdom that is set against God's wisdom is, I suggest, another manifestation of gnosticism - the belief that the created world, fallen though it may be, is entirely evil and useless and needs to be escaped from.

It is this error of gnosticism that leads to a belief that we will leave this useless world behind and it will be destroyed - the Scriptures instead teach that our final place will be right here on a renewed earth. This may seem like a tangent but I think it is relevant. Jesus' inbreaking into human history initiated a process of new creation - the cosmos is being subtly but irrevocably re-worked in fits and starts. The created order, including human brains and the use of those brains to figure out the world, were declared to be very good by God in the book of Genesis.

God is reversing the curse (although this will really only ultimately achieved in the future). We should not therefore dismiss what God initially declared to be very good and is even now reclaiming.

That which was deemed "very good" was prior to the fall and the taint and influence of sin. There has been no reversal of the curse until the day that this earth is destroyed and a New Heaven and a New Earth is created.

 

[Drew]

That which was deemed "very good" was prior to the fall and the taint and influence of sin. There has been no reversal of the curse until the day that this earth is destroyed and a New Heaven and a New Earth is created.

I do not think that this position can be defended scripturally.

From Paul

So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

God is very much presently in the business of generating new creation. Are you telling me that this new creation is "fallen"? Jesus died to solve the problem of sin. On the view that you seem to be espousing, his death had no effect on man's big problem - the curse of sin that was pronounced over Adam.

And I do not think that the view that the earth will be destroyed is correct either:

Romans 8:18-26

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

The world will not be destroyed and replaced with a new one - it will be remade. How can the earth be "liberated" if liberation involves destruction? If creation is going to be destroyed, then so much for its "eager expectation".

 

[Vic C.]

...God is reversing the curse (although this will really only ultimately achieved in the future). We should not therefore dismiss what God initially declared to be very good and is even now reclaiming.

That which was deemed "very good" was prior to the fall and the taint and influence of sin. There has been no reversal of the curse until the day that this earth is destroyed and a New Heaven and a New Earth is created.

I missed that part of the post. I agree, there's no reversal of the curse. Not to sound like a pessimist, but I believe it's getting worse. I know Drew will disagree, because we've had this convo before. To elaborate, when I say worse, I am referring to man's spiritual state, not his technological state.

 

[Drew]

[ To elaborate, when I say worse, I am referring to man's spiritual state, not his technological state.

And you probably can guess that I do not agree with even drawing such a distinction.... .

 

[Drew]

I missed that part of the post. I agree, there's no reversal of the curse.

If you believe this, it seems to me to follow logically you must believe that the new creation spoken of Paul is "fallen" creation - subject to the curse. I was under the impression that new "non-fallen" creation started seeping into this world 2000 years ago. This is an interesting issue and I may start a thread on this specific topic.

 

[DavidLee]

First of all, Welcome David Lee! Nice to see you around and I can tell by the way you appeal to the Scriptures that you're my kind of guy. Whether we'll agree on all the negotiables is another matter, but then again that's what makes these boards so interesting! :-D

Just to show how disagreeable I can be, I'll disagree with both you and Drew.

I don't think that anything is killing the church.

But, on the other hand, I think that the church can be harmed and our ministry seriously affected by false doctrines. (I know this seems a 180 from my last couple of posts, but I believe in looking at all aspects of an issue.) The false doctrines that crept into the RCC that were unchallenged prior to the Reformation harmed the church quite a bit, and we're still dealing with the fallout today.

Thank you for the welcome. I hope that where we might disagree God would educate us both.

I believe that the Holy Spirit provides understanding of the scripture.
Spiritual things can't be understood apart from the Spirit.

I'm not sure how best to phrase my next statements...
It is my belief that doctrinal errors are the result of an interpretation skewed to accomodate a bias for or against a position held. Certainly not everything is like that, but I can think of only a few examples that aren't.
I have seen pages spent on the meaning of a single word, where the context of the word reveals the meaning of the passage more than the word.

Some of the greatest men of God have not been highly educated.
The bible is really pretty simple stuff for the most part. Much of it can be hard to accept, but it's not usually hard to understand.

False doctrines exist because people want to believe them.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread...
I want to make sure of my election and calling.
I want to learn about my faith and that of my brethren.
I wish to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
That is why I come here.

 

[handy]

Thank you for the welcome. I hope that where we might disagree God would educate us both.

I believe that the Holy Spirit provides understanding of the scripture.
Spiritual things can't be understood apart from the Spirit.

I'm not sure how best to phrase my next statements...
It is my belief that doctrinal errors are the result of an interpretation skewed to accomodate a bias for or against a position held. Certainly not everything is like that, but I can think of only a few examples that aren't.
I have seen pages spent on the meaning of a single word, where the context of the word reveals the meaning of the passage more than the word.

Some of the greatest men of God have not been highly educated.
The bible is really pretty simple stuff for the most part. Much of it can be hard to accept, but it's not usually hard to understand.

False doctrines exist because people want to believe them.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread...
I want to make sure of my election and calling.
I want to learn about my faith and that of my brethren.
I wish to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.
That is why I come here.

Good reasons, all.

Your phrasology is very good, and I agree with you. One of these days I'd like to go deeper into what I see as the problem of the "agree to disagree" mentality. I've said it before, I think it's spiritual lazyness born out of spiritual pride. If there is a disagreement, those disagreeing should be willing to put their interpretations on hold until complete understading is achieved. Too often we are too prideful to do this.

 

[Guest]

Principles of sound argumentation is a learned skill. God clearly states in the Scriptures that He uses the foolish to shame the wise.

Being wise is not something to avoid. Learning how to think clearly and properly is not a sign of worldliness. Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

2 Chronicles 1:9-11

"Now, LORD God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth. Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?"
God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you"

Proverbs 2:1-3

My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

No doubt, someone will object that there is a distinction between "worldly wisdom" and "God's wisdom". This is a fuzzy distinction that suits the rhetorical purposes of those who continue to demean the discipline of careful and correct thinking. God made the world and we are faced with the challenge of figuring it out. We use our minds for this task and we work together with others in this enterprise. Of course we adopt an attitude of waiting on the Spirit.

But, and this is key, we do not simply sit there like lumps and wait for a magical download. We work, we develop the disciplines of structured and logical thinking. We learn to communicate with one another via language, etc.

This idea that sound reasoning skills constitute "human" wisdom that is set against God's wisdom is, I suggest, another manifestation of gnosticism - the belief that the created world, fallen though it may be, is entirely evil and useless and needs to be escaped from.

It is this error of gnosticism that leads to a belief that we will leave this useless world behind and it will be destroyed - the Scriptures instead teach that our final place will be right here on a renewed earth. This may seem like a tangent but I think it is relevant. Jesus' inbreaking into human history initiated a process of new creation - the cosmos is being subtly but irrevocably re-worked in fits and starts. The created order, including human brains and the use of those brains to figure out the world, were declared to be very good by God in the book of Genesis.

God is reversing the curse (although this will really only ultimately achieved in the future). We should not therefore dismiss what God initially declared to be very good and is even now reclaiming.

The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. - Tolstoy

 

[tim-from-pa]

The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. - Tolstoy

I was looking for the chapter and verse number of that quote! :-D

Now, to the rest, 4 people said they came to debate in the poll. It looks like we're all having a debate here. Maybe the percentages are skewed. :-D

 

[Guest]

The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. - Tolstoy

I was looking for the chapter and verse number of that quote! :-D

Proverbs 3:5

 

[Vic C.]

The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. - Tolstoy

I was looking for the chapter and verse number of that quote! :-D

Now, to the rest, 4 people said they came to debate in the poll. It looks like we're all having a debate here. Maybe the percentages are skewed. :-D

LOL!

Oh yeah, thanks Scott for making it a multi option poll.

I voted 1 and 2. 8-)

 

[Drew]

Being wise is not something to avoid. Learning how to think clearly and properly is not a sign of worldliness. Being one of the foolish is not something to be sought after. Getting this the wrong way around is killing the church.

2 Chronicles 1:9-11

"Now, LORD God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth. Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?"
God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart's desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king, therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you"

Proverbs 2:1-3

My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. - Tolstoy

This is how you respond to scriptures that clearly promote the value of wisdom, understanding, and learning - by quoting Tolstoy? Which book of the Bible did he write?

 

[Drew]

This whole idea that "man's wisdom" is not to be trusted and is to be set against God's wisdom has, of course, some truth to it, but it has been badly distorted.

There seems to be a strain running through this thread to the effect that Scriptural arguments that are carefully constructed in accordance with widely accepted principles of sound argumentation - consistency, logical flow, not begging the question, etc. - are somehow "tainted" and that such arguments are based on "man's wisdom" which is somehow to be set against "God's wisdom".

There have been instances (not in this thread) when this appeal is made when person X's position is being effectively countered by person Y's careful, logical, and Scriptural arguments. Person X (conveniently, I might add) then simply dismisses the argument of person Y by claiming "that's man's wisdom".

A little analysis leads us to the conclusion that God has structured the world in such a way that we really have no choice but to use "man's wisdom", as appropriately and humbly subjected to God, to communally (as a church) make progress.

Let's for the moment go with the idea that man's wisdom is tainted. How can some believer "Fred" ever learn anything new from the Scriptures? If man's wisdom is tainted, his entire faculty of reading sentences and interpreting them is therefore suspect - language, after all is a human construction. However, let's ignore that and assume that some new item of spiritual insight is present inside Fred.

Fred, rightfully, wants to communicate this to the rest of the church. Can he make a case that his new insight is consistent with other things in the Bible? Apparently not, since the very act of doing this requires application of "tainted" human wisdom. Can he explain how his insight about integrates with the overall story of God's acting in the world that we see in the Scriptures? Apparently not, since making such a case involves another of those "tainted" human faculties.

You can see how this goes. Those faculties which allow us to reason carefully and properly about the Scriptures and the world in general are really the only game in town to make any progress in understanding what God is doing in the world. Christians read, they think, they learn the disciplines of proper exegesis, etc. These are not bad things. Of course, our use of such faculties always needs to be set before God in humble expectation that He will, in some mysterious way, inform our efforts.

But there is no shortcut, no "God beaming doctrinal truths" into our minds through a route that bypasses these human faculties.

And Proverbs 3:4-5 has to be one of the most abused texts in Scripture. When the writer says:

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding"

this is not a repudiation of careful sound rational thinking (otherwise it would contradict other scriptures such as the ones I have posted), it is a rebuke of a pursuit of knowledge and truth that is not dedicated to God, not set before God, carried out with a spirit of arrogance, etc.

God has obvioulsy made the world in such a way that we need to "use our minds".

 

[golfjack]

Too many are mind led and not Spirit led. That is the problem as I see it.


May God bless, Golfjack