iLOVE
Member
Amen. The bible doesn't teach "sinless perfection.
2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV, John 14:27 NIV, Colossians 3:15 NCV, Romans 12 NCV, James 1:7-8 NASB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Growth Why does God let bad things happen to good people?
- Thread starter gerbilwoman
- Start date
2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV, John 14:27 NIV, Colossians 3:15 NCV, Romans 12 NCV, James 1:7-8 NASB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi By Grace,
Love your poem by Donne. This is from a song:
No man is an island
No man stands alone
Each man's joy is joy to me
Each man's grief is my own
We are all intertwined together in some mysterious way. We all affect each other...
As to what you say, I agree and wasn't saying we don't sin anymore. I was just replying to what you had said here:
Of course, I will fail, and that is inevitable. That is why I need to rely on the love and grace of my Savior, and not worry about our Adversary who remains defeated since the first Easter.
You know, some people go around happy go lucky like satan doesn't even exist. That's how he wants you to think! I was just agreeing with iLOVE that we have to be alert to his promptings. Saying that we don't "worry" about him could be taken to mean that we're too nonchalant about it and are thus not aware of his conniving methods.
I do agree with all you've said above.
Wondering
Love your poem by Donne. This is from a song:
No man is an island
No man stands alone
Each man's joy is joy to me
Each man's grief is my own
We are all intertwined together in some mysterious way. We all affect each other...
As to what you say, I agree and wasn't saying we don't sin anymore. I was just replying to what you had said here:
Of course, I will fail, and that is inevitable. That is why I need to rely on the love and grace of my Savior, and not worry about our Adversary who remains defeated since the first Easter.
You know, some people go around happy go lucky like satan doesn't even exist. That's how he wants you to think! I was just agreeing with iLOVE that we have to be alert to his promptings. Saying that we don't "worry" about him could be taken to mean that we're too nonchalant about it and are thus not aware of his conniving methods.
I do agree with all you've said above.
Wondering
Tracy J. Harper
Member
God is righteous. Everything God does is very necessary and has extraordinary meaning.We don't know God's will sometimes,so we can misunderstand God.I think it is not bad thing that God lets bad things happen to good people.For example Job, When bad things happen to Job,God wants to test him.And when he stood testimony and received more the blessings of God.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi,
All things work for the good to those who love God, Romans 8.28
You can take any situation and see some good in it - some good could always come out of it.
We're to trust God in everything. In all that happens to us. I must believe that there's some final goal that I don't understand. I must trust that God is doing the right thing.
But saying that it's a good thing that God causes (allows) bad things to happen to people is going a bit too far for me. He's a big God - surely He could figure out different ways to give blessings to us without having to go through Job-like situations.
I would prefer if nothing bad happened to me...
W
B
Brother Mike
Guest
God Test people by letting a disobedient servant murder their Children. What god are you referring to?
Christ_empowered
Member
I'm gonna jump in here. I think a certain amount of pain and suffering just comes with being human. Its part of life here on Earth. Look at Buddhism...look at modern psychology and psychiatry. Left to our own devices, we humans come up with clever ways to deal with suffering.
In addition...I do think that some suffering, for Christians and those on their way to Christ, has meaning and can prove helpful and "good," in a sense, over the long haul. Even those in and of the world now and then talk about the value of adversity, blah blah blah. I'm not dismissing the worldly/secular ideas, just saying...we, as Christians, have better ways to understand and address suffering.
My own line of thinking about my past and present and...well, life in general...has led me to think...God loves His children, but He usually moves within certain parameters. Not that miracles don't happen...my best guess is we just don't often hear about them because miracles don't sit well with the modern mind.
So, when I look back--and I try not to, not too much (take up your plow and move forward)--I think: well, God was there, even before I got saved. Since I got saved, God has definitely been there, in a big way, and my suffering has had more obvious meaning to it and has already done some good for me and for others. And then I also think...
...I appreciate what God has done for me and does for His other children. But, its also largely about His work in our lives. I"m not big on pain as glorifying God because...well...I lean towards a God of mercy and love, but...I do think that God can show Himself (and not just to us) through our pain and suffering and personal tragedies.
In addition...I do think that some suffering, for Christians and those on their way to Christ, has meaning and can prove helpful and "good," in a sense, over the long haul. Even those in and of the world now and then talk about the value of adversity, blah blah blah. I'm not dismissing the worldly/secular ideas, just saying...we, as Christians, have better ways to understand and address suffering.
My own line of thinking about my past and present and...well, life in general...has led me to think...God loves His children, but He usually moves within certain parameters. Not that miracles don't happen...my best guess is we just don't often hear about them because miracles don't sit well with the modern mind.
So, when I look back--and I try not to, not too much (take up your plow and move forward)--I think: well, God was there, even before I got saved. Since I got saved, God has definitely been there, in a big way, and my suffering has had more obvious meaning to it and has already done some good for me and for others. And then I also think...
...I appreciate what God has done for me and does for His other children. But, its also largely about His work in our lives. I"m not big on pain as glorifying God because...well...I lean towards a God of mercy and love, but...I do think that God can show Himself (and not just to us) through our pain and suffering and personal tragedies.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi CE
I pretty much agree with you.
There's a segment of the Christian population that likes to think that God sends bad things our way so we could learn, that it's a test in some way. That He's like a father that teaches and admonishes His children to keep them on the right track.
This can't be the God I serve. I've seen and have my share of misery. It's difficult for me to believe this is what God wants for me. I won't give examples but there are a few. So if God loves me so much, John 3:16, why am I - and my family - going through this stuff? Different types of "stuff."
I truly doubt God is doing this bad stuff. He's allowing it, that's for sure. And we, in our finite minds, have to figure out ways to understand what's going on here. We know He can't be a mean God, so what gives? So we say it's a test or we say it's for our own good or that it's to learn something.
My own personal opinion is that we're here, in the territory of the evil one. Ephesians 2:2 We don't know everything. We could quote Job or any other book. We weren't told the whole story. What I know for sure is that there are two powers at play, Deuteronomy 30:15, and we better know which one it is we want to serve and be with forever.
W
Christ_empowered
Member
I try to remind myself that I (and all of us) live in a Fallen World. For whatever reason, God usually works within certain parameters. Even with miracles...miracles are amazing, but hey, guess what? You've been healed...to live some more within a fallen, sinful world. Go forth and sin no more...
The Bible does seem to indicate that the righteous suffer more than the wicked, on the whole. When I think about it...the world rewards many sinful behaviors (vanity, pride, avarice, etc.) and punishes godly, virtuous, even decent behavior, so this shouldn't be a huge surprise.
I think of some of what I've gone through and am going through now as "becoming real," like in The Great Divorce (I've made this reference probably 22 times, lol). I don't think I'm the only one...
CS Lewis wrote something to the effect that we're not truly human unless we're in right relationship with God. I think he compared unbelievers to wild, roaming dogs. Yes, they're dogs; they're also miserable and not where they should be or behaving how they ought to behave. Wild, roaming humans are similar in a lot of respects.
Humans in right relationship with God are loved in an agape, divine way that defies human understanding, especially now, with so many cultures changing to a more "therapeutic" way of looking at life. We're not sinful; we're (neurotic, sick, depressed, etc.) and need help. Happiness is the absence of pain and an abundance of what we like. Love is strong affection that has to be kept at an acceptable intensity, or its not "really" love.
So...(rambling)...I think agape love can and does involve pain for its object, and I think many modern cultures make that hard for people (me included, most definitely) to accept. At the same time, God is Love...not God is Pain...I think a lot of Christians over-emphasize pain and suffering, sometimes to a disturbing extent (my opinion).
The Bible does seem to indicate that the righteous suffer more than the wicked, on the whole. When I think about it...the world rewards many sinful behaviors (vanity, pride, avarice, etc.) and punishes godly, virtuous, even decent behavior, so this shouldn't be a huge surprise.
I think of some of what I've gone through and am going through now as "becoming real," like in The Great Divorce (I've made this reference probably 22 times, lol). I don't think I'm the only one...
CS Lewis wrote something to the effect that we're not truly human unless we're in right relationship with God. I think he compared unbelievers to wild, roaming dogs. Yes, they're dogs; they're also miserable and not where they should be or behaving how they ought to behave. Wild, roaming humans are similar in a lot of respects.
Humans in right relationship with God are loved in an agape, divine way that defies human understanding, especially now, with so many cultures changing to a more "therapeutic" way of looking at life. We're not sinful; we're (neurotic, sick, depressed, etc.) and need help. Happiness is the absence of pain and an abundance of what we like. Love is strong affection that has to be kept at an acceptable intensity, or its not "really" love.
So...(rambling)...I think agape love can and does involve pain for its object, and I think many modern cultures make that hard for people (me included, most definitely) to accept. At the same time, God is Love...not God is Pain...I think a lot of Christians over-emphasize pain and suffering, sometimes to a disturbing extent (my opinion).
Edward
2024 Supporter
Well said, Brother. It's a great idea, perhaps essential, to train yourself to see a good in any situation. I do this myself. Sometimes the situation can be dire though, and it's at these times that I reach way down inside, and affirm to myself that, (at least), this is a learning experience. Which is something to set faith upon.
Life is 10% what it throws at you, and 90% how you react to it. We all know that tribulations build endurance and patience
Romans 5:1-5 James1:1-4 so I have to assume that the Lord is preparing me for my future and teaching me what I will need to know then, even though I don't understand now. I'll trust him and continue in faith that, it's good that I'm learning what I need to. Even if I feel sorta like Abraham or Moses, lol.
Wow. Moses sure had his back against the wall at the Red Sea, didn't he? Now there's some faith!
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Well said, Brother. It's a great idea, perhaps essential, to train yourself to see a good in any situation. I do this myself. Sometimes the situation can be dire though, and it's at these times that I reach way down inside, and affirm to myself that, (at least), this is a learning experience. Which is something to set faith upon.
Life is 10% what it throws at you, and 90% how you react to it. We all know that tribulations build endurance and patience
Romans 5:1-5 James1:1-4 so I have to assume that the Lord is preparing me for my future and teaching me what I will need to know then, even though I don't understand now. I'll trust him and continue in faith that, it's good that I'm learning what I need to. Even if I feel sorta like Abraham or Moses, lol.
Wow. Moses sure had his back against the wall at the Red Sea, didn't he? Now there's some faith!
Edward,
I'm a sister! And older than you. I checked because you sound like a young guy! But, at your age, you know what you're talking about. Some young people are very idealistic but with little experience.
So, I could say that God did prepare me. As I look back, I see the preparation. What I'm saying is that I would have preferred not to have been prepared. I would have preferred not to need the endurance. See what I mean?
But we take what God sends and are thankful that He's there for us to lean on and to take us through the Red Sea of life. We know not what the desert holds for us, but at the end of it all is the entry into the promised land.
God bless us all
Wondering
Edward
2024 Supporter
2 whoops, Sorry Sister...I'd rather not need the endurance either but what do I know, lol. There was one time that I prayed for more faith and God answered my prayer. I got dumped on with a big bag of tribulation! I did get more faith, but it wasn't fun enduring the trials. I'm a little more careful what I pray hence.
It doesn't really matter I guess. Jesus suffered while He was here and it's said that we will suffer along with Him...So praise the Lord, it's ok.
I do know that, I was (am) the plumber here and don't want to be the plumber in heaven. Lazarus & the rich man comes to mind for me, and I figure...the more we suffer here, the better it will be for me later...
200k years from now, we'll be able to look back and laugh at ourselves and our growing pains.
Tracy J. Harper
Member
Hi,wondering
I 'm glad to see your reply. I understand your thought, because I don't want bad happen to me too. But I see the God’s wonderful deeds and feel God's love by my mother's story. Although bad thing happened to her and it's bad, my mother see the blessings of God when my mother look up to God ,So I know something that we think is bad is good.
This is my mother's story and I hope it is helpful to you: Ever since I began to understand things, I knew my mom was often ill and had never stopped taking medicines, and that all the work in our home had to be done by my father alone. My mom often burned incense, worshipped Buddha, and even went to some witches for the treatment of her illness, but tonoavail. At that time, a blind fortune-teller often came to our village. (Everyone said he was an expert fortune-teller.) He told the villagers that my mom would encounter a crisis at the age of 53. That year, not long after I left home for Japan, my mom was diagnosed with a terminal uterine cancer. Then she was hospitalized and had an operation. The doctor said that she had at most two years to live. My father sighed all day long on account of worrying that my mom couldn’t pass the crisis. All the people in our village remarked that my mom’s cancer would not possibly be cured. Those patients who were in the same hospital room with my mom all had money and position. They ate highly nutritious tonics and took the best medicines. As a contrast, because our whole family lived on the little money gained by my father farming and we couldn’t afford the treatment, my mom didn’t accept chemotherapy after the operation. To our surprise, in that ward, my mom was the only patient who finally survived. When she went to hospital for a second examination, the doctor was utterly astonished and said that she had fully recovered from her cancer.
After three years abroad, I came back home. Until then did I know my mom once had a cancer. Then she testified about the wondrous deeds of God to me:she often prayed and read the bible,so her cancer gradually got better.She is well now.
And I think God is good, He loves everyone who love Him, so everything God has planned for and decided for you is a great benefit, and is a great protection. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing happen to us, we should submit to the Creator’s sovereignty and pray to God.
God bless us all
Then by making that statement, can we make the (rhetorical) assumption that you do not want grow spiritually?
Romans 5:3 And not only so , but we also boast in the tribulations, knowing that the tribulation doth work endurance;
4 and the endurance, experience; and the experience, hope;
5 and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us. YLT
4 and the endurance, experience; and the experience, hope;
5 and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us. YLT
It is sorta wishy-washy to say that "God permits... bad things to happen"
I believe a more faith-building "God is sovereign over bad things" is Scripturally accurate. Here is why I say that:
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 (according as it hath been written--`For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. YLT
36 (according as it hath been written--`For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. YLT
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It's all okay Edward.
I'd rather not need the endurance either but what do I know, lol. There was one time that I prayed for more faith and God answered my prayer. I got dumped on with a big bag of tribulation! I did get more faith, but it wasn't fun enduring the trials. I'm a little more careful what I pray hence.
It doesn't really matter I guess. Jesus suffered while He was here and it's said that we will suffer along with Him...So praise the Lord, it's ok.
I do know that, I was (am) the plumber here and don't want to be the plumber in heaven. Lazarus & the rich man comes to mind for me, and I figure...the more we suffer here, the better it will be for me later...
200k years from now, we'll be able to look back and laugh at ourselves and our growing pains.
Funny what you say about being careful what to pray for. I feel the same way! I'm worried I might get my way and it may not be good!!
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Tracy
Thanks so much for this beautiful testimony. It truly is edifying and helpful. Sometimes we may feel abandoned by God, but I know that we never are. Sometimes He makes His presence be known so that we can give glory to Him, which is what you did by telling your wonderful story.
God bless you
W
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Romans 8:35 Did I speak about being separated from God?
God's Sovereignty. Of course God is sovereign and rules over all. That's why I said that he "permits" bad things to happen. Do you think He CAUSES bad things to happen?
And regarding spiritual growth. Yeah By Grace. I would have preferred to be stalled in my spiritual growth and keep what I had 10/15 years ago. Is that shocking to you?
Wondering
Edward
2024 Supporter
You can say that again. I believe it where it says that we don't even know how to pray for what we ought to. That's a wee bit discouraging in a way, knowing that we don't even have a clue to the real realities and the gravity of it that we live in here.
When we finally do learn the complete truth, I'm sure it'll be one of those OMG moments.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
How many does the Lord Deliver us out of? if you believe in Him, don't fear man as the Fear of man brings a snare, then All of them. We are delivered out of All.
I do in fact know what happened to Job, God had nothing to do with it.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
God is leading out of experience of Evil and Adversity. He is leading out, not sitting back and allowing. Worse things actually come on Non-believers. The same things can come on us, but God is there, every single time. it's not God "Allowing" It's God protecting from the god of this World.
Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Those that don't know God, or have no faith in God, they have no hope when bad things come up. We do, we have a deliver, a Helper in the time of Need, something greater than anything on Earth to hear our voice and perform His Word.
How we handle situations, the Trying of our Faith from the enemy, from the World is what is important to God. Did we crumble saying God's will be done? Did we stand up and say, "No you don't devil, it is Written!!!!"
Did we swing the Sword of the Spirit, with our armor on, or did we make excuses like so many faithless Christians and misquote Job and accuse our Great and wonderful God of evil?
That is where it's important, Will He find faith on Earth?
I am around, but more important things like NASA flipping God's Earth back at us. We are very close to the End. If we don't take God's Word literal about everything, believe Him, things won't go well.
Mike
You assume something not intended in that Scripture.
Your original post was about trials, I was posting to assure you that nothing can separate the child of God from the love of God.
Also, I highlighted the important word, "rhetorical", and in the sense I used it, it means that there is no reason to answer the question because it is assumed that as Christian you really do want to grow in Christ.
Your question seems to be argumentative. There is a huge difference in my mind between God permitting something versus God is sovereign over something. Sovereignty over something means that God id greater over any circumstance. Permission-granting is done in situations like Job went through. Since there is no way to know if this bad thing happened due to the action of Satan being permitted to cause a catastrophe, or as a consequence of sin is unknown by us here. That is why I prefer the term sovereign.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it
My post was not intended to be a personal attack on you; therefore I will not respond to what I perceive may be a personal attack on me.
There we go back to the fact that you misunderstood what I was really stating from the start, and every other statement in my reply seemed as if it was an insult. I regret that you misunderstood what I stated, but I say this clearly:
In the economy of God, none of the suffering of a child of God while on earth is wasted. If it were not so that everything that happens to us is a part of His plan of sanctification so that we may become more Christ-like.
If there was no part of the sudden death of our daughter's at age 22, six weeks after giving birth to her daughter, that was not designed to bring me closer to Jesus, it would mean that God was capricious, and not sovereign